Fox News reporting on the Gibson v. Feds

[LiFeStArTs@40]

I think "ironic" would be a better word. The fact is that the problem WAS that India wasn't slotting and radiusing the boards right. They were doing it more by hand and with less precision tooling than here BECAUSE labor is so cheap over there....but don't kid yourself. Sometimes "hand made" ain't a good thing. ALSO: the fewer Indian hands that that material goes through, the less "cherry picking" of the better quality wood happens along the way. You get better quality wood for the same dollar if you got it unprocessed...and radiusing and slotting a fingerboard requires very little labor with automation anywhere these days. You basically pass the board through two machines. Takes about 15 seconds. Really the only leg Gibson has over the HUNDREDS of other guitar manufacturers is that simple fact that the guitars are MADE in America. If Gibson bought PARTS from Asia and just ASSEMBLED them here...these bulletin boards would be screaming how overpriced they were and how Gibson sold out.....so he tries to give the public what they want and the government steps in. Personally I think this is WAY overblown on the government's part. Guns drawn raiding an American factory because some foreign country's export laws concerning a few millimeters might have been incorrect. If ANYTHING is curious to me it's how a government so inept at stopping illegal drugs, illegal aliens and other REAL problems in our country would be so efficient about something so petty. And I think Gibson guitars are a rip-off for what you pay for them...but this looks really bad. Like some sort of war on American manufacturing. My general thought is that it's just a government agency trying to justify it's budget by going after "low hanging fruit". The Lacey act was enacted to protect endangered wood. It's being enforced here outside of the spirit of that law because none of the woods imported were endangered. Same wood that everybody is using. It's being perverted into some sort of law encouraging foreign labor.

 

 

Very well said.

[Hoddy]

This place is turning into a junior Political Party!

[JerseyGuy]

I seconded a comment in another thread that is entirely non-political: why is this happening only to Gibson? Can you imagine this happening to Chris Martin, or Bob Taylor, or Jean Larrivee, James Goodall, or Richard Hoover at Santa Cruz, to name a few? I certainly can't. That kinda sums it up for me. Obey the law, they -- and every other "Made in America" maker don't seem to have trouble doing it. I love Gibsons, by the way.

[roughtrade]

I seconded a comment in another thread that is entirely non-political: why is this happening only to Gibson? Can you imagine this happening to Chris Martin, or Bob Taylor, or Jean Larrivee, James Goodall, or Richard Hoover at Santa Cruz, to name a few? I certainly can't. That kinda sums it up for me. Obey the law, they -- and every other "Made in America" maker don't seem to have trouble doing it. I love Gibsons, by the way.

 

 

 

 

This may help to explain why Martin is not having the same problem.

[Queequeg]

Great video, roughtrade. CFM IV seems to have a bit of a different vibe than Juszkiewicz.

[Tony Burns]

My understanding of the Lacey law is not that its protecting endangered wood , but to employ more and keep more work in the country the raw material came from to support native Indians ( India specifically )- If im wrong please correct me . ( i wont get mad- I'm not perfect )

 

I see nothing wrong with using woods grown in North America- Maple is a wonderful tone wood as well as Walnut and others - Their are also woods that make excellent fingerboards, my Goodall AKS uses a pheasant wood from Hawai for its fingerboard ( thou i think its bound by ebony or Rosewood ) i also know of Osage orange has about the same density of Ebony - its color is a beautiful orange to light brown ( i have a couple of fingerboard blanks that came from Georgia ) im not sure of its abundancy -becasue it was used as fencing material substitute back in the early 1800's ( its a thorny bush like growth -which can grow into a tree form if left alone -its fruit is spiked orange like .) Quite possibly why more North american trees are not looked into is because of traditional beliefs of woods that are used on guitars . Some people still have a stick up their A-- over Brazilian rosewood , like its the only guitar wood for back and sides .

[Bernie P.]

IMO Gibson simply wants to keep the line American made.They already have their Epiphone line made in other country's.There are far more important things for the justice department to be focused on than wood.

[Terry Allan Hall]

My understanding of the Lacey law is not that its protecting endangered wood , but to employ more and keep more work in the country the raw material came from to support native Indians ( India specifically )- If im wrong please correct me . ( i wont get mad- I'm not perfect ) I see nothing wrong with using woods grown in North America- Maple is a wonderful tone wood as well as Walnut and others - Their are also woods that make excellent fingerboards, my Goodall AKS uses a pheasant wood from Hawai for its fingerboard ( thou i think its bound by ebony or Rosewood ) i also know of Osage orange has about the same density of Ebony - its color is a beautiful orange to light brown ( i have a couple of fingerboard blanks that came from Georgia ) im not sure of its abundancy -becasue it was used as fencing material substitute back in the early 1800's ( its a thorny bush like growth -which can grow into a tree form if left alone -its fruit is spiked orange like .) Quite possibly why more North american trees are not looked into is because of traditional beliefs of woods that are used on guitars . Some people still have a stick up their A-- over Brazilian rosewood , like its the only guitar wood for back and sides .

 

 

Around here we call that Bois D'Arc ("bowdark") and there's a lot of it...an old fiddle-maker/repairer I'm friends with made a fiddle entirely of Bois D'Arc and it sounds great...and is a bit louder that a conventional spruce and maple fiddle. I think it should be utilized more for luthiery, but finding large enough pieces can be problematic, of course.

[Queequeg]

 

There are far more important things for the justice department to be focused on than wood.

 

And how do you feel about falsifying Customs documents?

Perhaps the Justice Department is able to "multi-task". I don't know.

[michaell]

roughtrade,

 

Thanks for CF Martin vdeio about responsible guitar making.

[Chordchunker]

Around here we call that Bois D'Arc ("bowdark") and there's a lot of it...an old fidle-maker/repairer I'm friends with made a fiddle entirely of Bois D'Arc and it sounds great...and is a bit louder that a conventional spruce and maple fiddle. I think it should be utilized more for luthiery, but finding large enough pieces can be problematic, of course.

 

 

Bowdark grows everywhere around here too. Cherry wood is also decent for luthier work.

[Queequeg]

 

Bowdark grows everywhere around here too. Cherry wood is also decent for luthier work.

 

Cherry trees in the Adirondacks get huge. Straight and very tall. Godin/Seagull/A&L use a lot of it.

[Chordchunker]

 

Cherry trees in the Adirondacks get huge. Straight and very tall. Godin/Seagull/A&L use a lot of it.

 

 

I played a Cherry Wood Martin that I sure liked.

[roughtrade]

roughtrade, Thanks for CF Martin vdeio about responsible guitar making.

 

 

No problem.

 

I think Chris Martin has a stronger tie to his business, being the 6th generation family member to run it. I imagine that Bob Taylor is close to his also as he brought to being. I'm not saying Henry J. is not close, but he is a businessman and I think that for him it is simply a business.

 

In a corporation the CEO may not make all the decisions and Henry J. may just be holding the bag for a decision someone else made. The CEO is accountable for what happens on their watch. We don't even know if there was a violation yet, either. We just know that there is smoke over there.

[roughtrade]

Great video, roughtrade. CFM IV seems to have a bit of a different vibe than Juszkiewicz.

 

 

He certainly seems as though he intends to handle the tonewood problem with care and thought for his family to come. Apparently it has been on the radar for quite a while at Martin Guitars.

[Axegrinder009]

This issues gets more complicated every day, it seems. I have no respect for a company that breaks the law to get a competitive edge, however there may well be another explanation:

"There was a discrepancy in the import of this latest shipment of wood. It was listed with an improper tariff code, which the importer, Luthiers Mercantile International of Windsor, Calif., claimed was a clerical error by a junior employee and tried to clear up. But rather than talk to the importer and Gibson about it, the Justice Department dispatched U.S. Fish and Wildlife and DHS agents to raid the Gibson compounds."

The raid may be due to another as-yet unresolved case about wood imports aquired by Gibson a couple of years ago. Gibson is trying to get that wood back from the Feds.

The problem is that the wood evidence is sitting around in some Federal holding warehouse until the wheels of justice slowly turn, and may well be unuseable even if Gibson wins the case in court, which might take additional years.

The whole situation is a real mess. The truth is yet to be determined.

[Bernie P.]

And how do you feel about falsifying Customs documents? Perhaps the Justice Department is able to "multi-task". I don't know.

 

 

Well I haven't followed the whole story so I'm not familiar with the falsifying documents part of it.Yesterday I saw a segment where a Gibson rep explained what they were in trouble for was importing rosewood for fingerboards.He said had they had the inlay work done on the rosewood beforehand overseas it would have been legal to import it but that would put the employees who do the inlay part here out of work.Looks to me like the problem here is we have some really stupid regulations in place.We desperately need jobs and this nonsense is costing Gibson a ton of money,putting more jobs at risk both at Gibson and the surrounding business' that depend on their own income from Gibson workers.In the end all this can only hurt the economy overall.

[roughtrade]

Well I haven't followed the whole story so I'm not familiar with the falsifying documents part of it.Yesterday I saw a segment where a Gibson rep explained what they were in trouble for was importing rosewood for fingerboards.He said had they had the inlay work done on the rosewood beforehand overseas it would have been legal to import it but that would put the employees who do the inlay part here out of work.Looks to me like the problem here is we have some really stupid regulations in place.We desperately need jobs and this nonsense is costing Gibson a ton of money,putting more jobs at risk both at Gibson and the surrounding business' that depend on their own income from Gibson workers.In the end all this can only hurt the economy overall.

 

So you are saying that Gibson is importing wood illegally?

 

And implying that it is ok with you?

[guitarcapo]

What the "illegal" definition seems to lie upon has nothing to do with the imported wood being an endangered species. It has to do with the fact that INDIA deemed the export illegal (by nature of the fact that work wasn't done on the wood and India wants to support home labor...which America should do more). I believe that this interpretation of the law (and fervent enforcement) violates the spirit of the Lacey act's intentions which are to save endangered species....not support foreign labor.
If India had a problem with the wood it should be up to THEM to not allow its export. Why are American law enforment resources so eager to be used to enforce petty laws made by foreign countries that THEY THEMSELVES don't enforce...and which don't seem to serve American interests in any way?

Also: Gibson didn't import the wood. LMI did and Gibson purchased the wood from them. Are all of LMI's other customers being treated the same way with raids and wood seizures? Why not? Gibson did not falsify any import descriptions. They were way down the line from India and LMI. This whole thing stinks.

[Queequeg]

 

What the "illegal" definition seems to lie upon has nothing to do with the imported wood being an endangered species. It has to do with the fact that INDIA deemed the export illegal (by nature of the fact that work wasn't done on the wood and India wants to support home labor...which America should do more). I believe that this interpretation of the law (and fervent enforcement) violates the spirit of the Lacey act's intentions which are to save endangered species....not support foreign labor. If India had a problem with the wood it should be up to THEM to not allow its export. Why are American law enforment resources so eager to be used to enforce petty laws made by foreign countries that THEY THEMSELVES don't enforce...and which don't seem to serve American interests in any way? Also: Gibson didn't import the wood. LMI did and Gibson purchased the wood from them. Are all of LMI's other customers being treated the same way with raids and wood seizures? Why not? Gibson did not falsify any import descriptions. They were way down the line from India and LMI. This whole thing stinks.

 

^ all this, according to Gibson.

I wonder if there is another side to this story.

[Terry Allan Hall]

^ all this, according to Gibson. I wonder if there is another side to this story.

I'm certain that there's at least one more side to this story besides Henry J's...

[roughtrade]

I am still out on what is really at the heart, was a mistake made, was it intentional, was it covered up,
or is the government targeting Gibson unfairly?

Well, according to Angel and Henry we have somehow gone from protecting a resource for all of us to attacking the American family. He is misdirecting us by not showing copies of the affadavits, statements, and all the information his legal team is in possession of. I classify this and his previous statements under the heading of damage control. No real answers here. I also resent how he has spread the damage out to include me and my family, as though the concern of the resource is of no concern to us, but an attack on Gibson guitars is an attack on all of us. Well, it could be if we used shady paperwork to import illegal wood. Sorry Henry, either way, it is on you guys, not my family.

Will we be shot for harboring guitars? idk, man it ain't looking so good.

[RevRomansky]

The Feds overstepped AGAIN. One of the first things Homeland Security did to secure us from ""terrorism" was to bust a small mob operation in Las Vegas (as I recall). Remember the IRS breaking into citizens homes with weapons drawn? David Koresh, Ruby Ridge? I don't trust 'em as far as I can throw 'em.

 

All they had to do was find the right judge, probably an Obama appointee, to sign off on the search warrant. Those who assume guilt just because they got busted are probably going to vote AGAIN for Obama, who's administration is promoting an Alinsky-inspired agenda.

 

To those who think this is just paranoia, I stated this BEFORE Hoffa, BEFORE the union taking over a seaport in Washington state. The agenda is speeding up, folks, and if you don't think there is an agenda, you drank the Kool Aid and believe television is truth.

[Queequeg]

shutter to think what we would do without your guidance.

can't thank you enough.

and I know I speak for each and every member on this forum that we all share your loss and love for David Koresh.

America is a safer and a better place thanks to your posting here.

keep up the good work.

[katopp]

...could we move this to the PP? Please!
I doubt that Obama, Osama, Al or whoever reprents THE EVIL[tm] in your CT world is in any way, shape or form responsible for that.
Gibson and/or LMI were cutting corners, actively or accidentally misrepresenting woods in the documentation and it's the job of a judge and jury to sort this mess.