Members gitnoob Posted October 5, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 5, 2011 OK. Really dumb question - why aren't things like finishing supplies included in the price of your course? For that matter, why are you doing so much of this at home? Going back to your two edged sword comment, I would think that one of the biggest advantages to a class like this (besides the fact that you won't make any major mistakes) is that all of the tools, supplies, and workshop are provided. I envy you for that every time I run down to Home Depot for another router bit. Great question. In this particular case, the class officially ended quite a while ago. Of course, nobody came close to finishing their instrument (again), so he graciously agreed to continue to help us on sort of an ad-hoc basis. Frankly, I feel guilty for even using his sandpaper, and I often donate materials to The Cause. He underpriced the class by quite a bit IMO. Rick Davis also offers a class in Seattle for a lot more money. I asked him about finishing, and he punts. The class breaks for a month while you figure out how to finish your guitar on your own, and then they meet up again to attach the neck, etc. I asked him what he does for his own guitars. He outsources finishing, as do many other builders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted October 5, 2011 Members Share Posted October 5, 2011 He uses Everclear. Of course, I asked him if I could use denatured alcohol from Ace, and he sadly shook his head "no." BTW, the stuff is legal to acquire if you have a commercial license to use it. He does, and the local liquor store does stock the 190 proof stuff in the back. I asked them about the licensing process. They pointed me to the state board's site, but said that the only people they knew who could successfully obtain the license were MD's who use it to sterilize their instruments. Personally, I find it absurd that the non-toxic stuff is impossible to get, but the toxic stuff is available off the shelf. Anyway, a few bottles should be here by Friday. Try living in Pennsylvania with our antiquated and overly-politicized blue laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 5, 2011 Members Share Posted October 5, 2011 Great question. In this particular case, the class officially ended quite a while ago. Of course, nobody came close to finishing their instrument (again), so he graciously agreed to continue to help us on sort of an ad-hoc basis.Frankly, I feel guilty for even using his sandpaper, and I often donate materials to The Cause. He underpriced the class by quite a bit IMO.Rick Davis also offers a class in Seattle for a lot more money. I asked him about finishing, and he punts. The class breaks for a month while you figure out how to finish your guitar on your own, and then they meet up again to attach the neck, etc.I asked him what he does for his own guitars. He outsources finishing, as do many other builders. Yea, I've been watching this whole process with a great deal of interest. I also know of Running Dog, but have never dealt with him. Personally, I think you have done a pretty remarkable job on both of your instruments inspite of your luthier, not because of him. I certainly see his influence in your work - he builds primarily classicals so he uses a spanish heel and FP, many other little bits. However, judging by your experience I would have a hard time suggesting that someone take his classes (as you know, I know what he charges). Each of us decides how we want to finish our instruments and outsourcing is an option - particularly if you want a catalyzed finish (Mike Doolin in Portland used to shoot KTM but he now outsources poly). I've always said that is one of the hardest things for a home builder - the choice of products and how to apply them. Its ironic that nitro is one of the easiest and really give pretty good results, but it is very difficult to do safely at home. For someone buying a guitar from a small commercial builder we have come to expect perfection from the finish, yet that is really hard to do and outsourcing makes sense. Its a bit like when I had some paint done to my motorcyle - I own an airbrush and compressor and could have attempted it but I readily paid over $1200 for someone who know what he is doing. Anyway, like many I will continue to watch these threads and am looking forward to hearing the two instruments when you are done. ps - for perspective, David Freeman (no relation) offers a build your own guitar class for $4000 Cdn (800 of that is materials) and give a "certificate of lutherie" (whatever the hell that is) when you are done. And ironically, Freeman uses Spanish heels for all his guitars, including his 12 strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted October 5, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 5, 2011 It's easy to view this luthier as a poor teacher, and I'd like to learn more modern methods as well. But I've come to envy the guy and I may adopt his approach -- or at least his philosophy. Basically, he's a hippy. He makes a living by a combination of owning/running a local store selling instruments, making his own instruments, gigging, giving guitar lessons, and this build class. That's quite a feat and a pretty cool lifestyle. He says he uses handtools because of speed and control, and I'm coming around to that approach. He avoids toxins, which is one reason he doesn't shoot nitrocellulose. So basically, his methodology is perfect for the hobby builder who wants to build at home. I'd recommend him, but I probably want the class slot for myself next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knockwood Posted October 6, 2011 Members Share Posted October 6, 2011 Wow, that git is really looking fantastic! I am most impressed by your work on the neck - I'd never have been able to pull off something like that - but really every detail is looking pretty great. Everclear 190 is also illegal in NY. Pain in the ass. I had to mail-order the stuff from a place in NJ, and surprisingly they just shipped it right to me without any grief. I can't figure out why on earth this stuff should be illegal in NY when you can walk into any hardware store and buy denatured alcohol... which I have on hand, but I used Everclear on the recommendation of Robert O'Brien (he has an awesome finishing DVD available through LMI). Worked great. Not as chemicalicious as denatured alcohol. I used a Fox bridge clamp as well, and the StewMac Saddlematic. Both excellent, although I can't quite fathom why the Fox clamp doesn't come with mini cauls (made quick ones myself out of little pieces of spruce). Cleaning up glue squeeze-out with the Fox clamp was very easy. I was in the same mindset as you near the end - the closer I got to completion, the more cautious I became about hosing up the entire exercise. For me, bridge placement was kind of harrowing. I measured and re-measured and re-re-measured and looked from various distances and angles a hundred times before finally drilling anything. Looks like you really nailed this one according to your plans. Pretty amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted October 6, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 6, 2011 Thanks, Knock, and viva New Jersey! I ordered mine from the same place, but it takes a week to get here. I'm seriously impressed that you were able to build yours on your own. In elementary school, they taught me about the classic conflicts: man vs man, man vs nature, and man vs himself. They left out man vs guitar. Seems like every step is a fight to avert disaster. For example, when I filled the pores of the neck with silex, I added some stain to the mix. The stain made the solution low viscosity, and it started to run. "Oh my god, not the spruce!" Luckily, it didn't stain the spruce, but that didn't stop me from having a minor panic attack. One of many. This last 1% is taking forever. With every change of the light, I see a new gap that needs to be filled and scraped.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 6, 2011 Members Share Posted October 6, 2011 Seems like every step is a fight to avert disaster. For example, when I filled the pores of the neck with silex, I added some stain to the mix. The stain made the solution low viscosity, and it started to run. "Oh my god, not the spruce!" Luckily, it didn't stain the spruce, but that didn't stop me from having a minor panic attack. One of many.This last 1% is taking forever. With every change of the light, I see a new gap that needs to be filled and scraped.... That is why God gave us blue painter's tape. Mask everything, and I mean everything that can be affected by whatever it is you are doing during these steps. Consider a wash coat of shellac on the spruce that will keep your stains and pore filler from soaking in - you can always sand that back to the wood. Also, make sure that you have no dabs of glue anywhere on the surface anywhere - once you have started finishing these are impossible to remove. On one of my guitars I did this really nice laminate of really thin birch between the headstock veneer and the headstock itself - thought that would leave a neat white line. Soaked up the stains faster than the mahogany - duh. I figure that when I start the finish stage I'm 2/3rds done - in both hours and time until I can play it (I figure 60 days). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted October 10, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 10, 2011 I think I'm done filling gaps and pores. Time to put on some shellac. And UPS arrived just in time for the party! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Galabar Posted October 10, 2011 Members Share Posted October 10, 2011 I think I'm done filling gaps and pores. Time to put on some shellac. And UPS arrived just in time for the party! One for the guitar, one for you. Two for the guitar, one, two for you. Three for the guitar, one, two, three for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted October 11, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 11, 2011 No idea if I'm doing this correctly, but I've got 4 coats of shellac built up now. I wait about 3 hours between coats. I'll wait a couple of days for it to cure now, and then I think I do essentially the same thing again. It's starting to get a bit of a sheen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted October 11, 2011 Members Share Posted October 11, 2011 It looks amazing, gitnoob. I can't wait to see how well the gloss comes out but the colors are already there. BTW, I'm insanely jealous at your progress. Where do you find the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted October 11, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 11, 2011 You can doo eet, Mon! I'm a slacker. Check out Tony_in_NYC on a couple of the luthier forums. Finished his in 7 weeks. Working evenings in his living room. Packing up everything each day to keep it out of reach of the kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted October 11, 2011 Members Share Posted October 11, 2011 Tony is clearly not human. Besides, what about RH? I've been preoccupied with letting wood acclimate which is why I can't get anything done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted October 11, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 11, 2011 Things like the plates acclimate quickly because they're so thin. My office has an RH of 50%. The living room is 60%. And the garage is 70%. I move from room to room depending on what level of humidity I need. You're building this for yourself, right? You only need to worry about guitars imploding from humidity effects when they go to a climate that differs significantly from the build climate. And I fully expect mine to implode. That'll just give me an excuse to build another one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 11, 2011 Members Share Posted October 11, 2011 Things like the plates acclimate quickly because they're so thin. My office has an RH of 50%. The living room is 60%. And the garage is 70%. I move from room to room depending on what level of humidity I need. 'Noob, 60-70 percent seems pretty high based on my limited experience, depending of course on what you plan to keep it at when its done. What did your luthier story the wood at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted October 11, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 11, 2011 'Noob, 60-70 percent seems pretty high based on my limited experience, depending of course on what you plan to keep it at when its done. What did your luthier story the wood at? My office is my wood storage area. The computers heat up the room, keeping it pretty close to 50% RH year-round. Believe it or not, I'm pretty sure the luthier doesn't even own a hygrometer. He only builds during the summer months -- while he has good light -- so it's a pretty safe bet that all of his guitars were built pretty close to 50% RH. In theory, it's safer to build in a lower-humidity climate than a higher-humidity climate. That's why I try not to work in my garage too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted October 11, 2011 Members Share Posted October 11, 2011 Not to hijack this thread any more, but the RH in my basement is now at 47%. I was hoping to bring my top home once all the braces were glued on so that I could do the chiseling in the comfort of my own home. My friend keeps his shop at 40%. I should also add that I have a bunch of stuff down there that could be sold off in order to fund some WAS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted October 14, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 14, 2011 Second body building session. Slowly, the bug excretion thickens.... I'm chomping at the bit, so I had to dress her up with a bridge on. (These pics have looked pretty much the same for about a month now, haven't they?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted October 18, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 18, 2011 Leveled the finish today with 400 grit sandpaper. I think it's getting close -- a few more coats and then I polish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted October 18, 2011 Members Share Posted October 18, 2011 Niiiice!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted October 18, 2011 Members Share Posted October 18, 2011 Leveled the finish today with 400 grit sandpaper. I think it's getting close -- a few more coats and then I polish. That looks awesome. You wet-sanded it, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted October 18, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 18, 2011 Thanks! Dry sanded. Left the dust on the guitar, and then rubbed it in with another coat. After all, it's just shellac dust, right? Everybody seems to have their own technique for FP. The luthier recommended that I try it with no oil. So far, so good. And the lack of oil means that it cures quickly and fairly evenly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted October 20, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 20, 2011 Added a few more coats and then today I leveled again. This time with 400 grit followed by 600 grit. Then put on a few "spiriting" coats -- just alcohol on the pad (which still has some shellac in it) to fill any scratches from leveling. And then I removed the bridge band-aid.... Which allowed me to glue on the bridge! I'm pretty excited. This is like going into labor. I'll wait another day or two for the shellac and glue to cure, and then polish, and perhaps even string her up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fastblueheeler Posted October 20, 2011 Members Share Posted October 20, 2011 Looks very nice! I like the rosette. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted October 20, 2011 Author Members Share Posted October 20, 2011 Thanks! Just removed the clamps. Now I have to leave it alone for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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