A visit to a Vietnamese Guitar factory

[NealP]

Hi All. Update. Unfortunately, my VN guitar didn't take the change in humidity well. After a few weeks back in the states, the wood had begun to warp a little. The back of the body has developed some ripples. You can't see them, but you can feel them when you pass your hand over the inlays. The worst part is that the neck now has a sharp angle at the 14th fret, right where it joins the body. The angle is towards the back of the guitar, so all of the strings bottom out at the 14th fret. It's too much to be corrected with the truss rod, and this isn't the kind of bow a truss rod was intended to fix anyway. The guitar is unplayable in it's current condition. Mind you, the guitar still looks great (other than when you sight down the fretboard). I've talked to a luthier here about it. He recommended I wait a little while and make sure the wood is finally settled before attempting to do anything about.

 

[jd-drafter]

i don't see any financial interest... it's already been discussed... once you look at shipping there is not real viable financial end to the means.

 

it's this simple... he thinks they are nice guitars that are a good value and will last as well as any other guitar if cared for properly.

 

you dispute that fact and feel they will fail based upon the build condition and environmental changes of a new location.

 

i don't think there is really much to discuss... even a guitar produced in a controlled environment can fail if not cared for...

 

seems simple to me... that is why my dad builds guitars out of aluminum...8^)

 

solves that issue... 8^)

[NealP]

JD, that's the point, of course, even a guitar built in a controlled environment can fail if not cared for properly. However, a guitar built in conditions like the ones in this thread have a much better than average chance of failing than a guitar from a controlled environment. Much better chance of failing. Did I say much better chance? Lotto style.

 

I don't dispute that guitars need care, yes of course they do. These guitars however, as has been demonstrated, will not last outside their environment of high humidity, plain and simple. If you, or anyone chooses to buy one, from here, or the 2 Vietnamese sellers on eBay, I wish you luck, as you will definitely need it.

 

I wouldn't bother to keep up with this thread, btw, except for 2 reasons, the first is I get these damn emails everytime someone replies. The second, the original poster, "Etty", has been nothing but an asshole since I politely pointed this out early on. Which is why it leads one to believe he has some sort of financial stake here, but that's no matter, gotta make a living.

 

And while on youtube, I checked out Dowling's guitars. Now that's a good bet! Great sound, good for some bottleneck I would wager.

[fastblueheeler]

Neal, it's become a pissing contest. Put your penis away and let it go. (The thread that is. Hang on to your penis if you wish.)

[Etienne Rambert]

Is louder better? Or different? They (including your pacrim) have a volume knob.. All you have to do is turn it up at a gig. For a inexpensive guitar yours is fine , don`t get me wrong, but "better than a Benedetto" as you claimed in another of your posts is subjective.

 

Nope. Not better. I never claimed mine was better.

Show me the quote. If I did, mea culpa. I don't think I did.

 

But I did claim it was louder than a Benedetto.

And it is -- by quite a lot.

 

Amp surgeon isn't the only forumite who bought guitars here.

There've been at least 4, that I know about. Two will review their

guitars on the channel. They're from dry states too.

[BryanMichael]

Man, sorry Bryan. Did you just spank me? It's the internet, some ears are better than others, some PC speakers are better. It does look nice though, sounds pretty decent too. Too bad about the quality issues, and it just seems like Etty still thinks they're the cat's ass. Which has me thinking about his "Lottery" remarks. What are the odds that the only guy from this forum to purchase one of these and bring it back to the US would have it fall apart like Amp_surgeon's did? Hmmm.... But hey, this is for those of you considering purchasing a guitar from a shop that has no climate control. Ya gets what ya pays for. I'm sure he stands behind his guitars though, just send it back to Vietnam if it does, and it most likely will.

1. My laptop doesn't even have a "proper speaker" it's a compact travel model with a single little speaker thing in one corner.

2. I'm serious, it was obvious from the clip he started amplified (the reverb is a dead giveaway ) and then he reaches over and turns it all down, going for the acoustic sound of the guitar which is noticeably different...and sounds...un-amplified to anyone that has been playing guitars for more than 3 months or so.

3. I gave you the benefit of the doubt in a previous post, but SERIOUSLY if you have to say "some ears are different" to see and hear the difference between the acoustic and amplified sounds, then you HAVE NO BUSINESS POSTING IN THIS THREAD, leave alone the "acoustic" forum. You must be completely and utterly deaf and using adaptive technology on your computer to not see and hear the obvious differences in what was being demonstrated.

4. I did not "spank" you- your ignorance has become overwhelmingly obvious.

You now remind me of some other "experts" I came across. They ran a music shop on Ohio State's campus. They carried some high end Gibson acoustics (a few) and they put them on the wall way up high so no one could get at them. .........right by the furnace vent. :facepalm: One day I asked to try one out (I've been in the market for a decade for a Gibson acoustic) and they got one down for me- I played it for a couple of minutes and then said "Hey, did you know the top is split from the soundhole to the bridge on this guitar?" and they had THE NERVE to ask me "What did you do to that guitar!?!?!?!" It was all I could do not to slap the living piss out of the guy. :mad: I pointed at the row of Gibsons near the ceiling by the vent (in the dead of winter) and said "Look asshole, you have no climate control in here. You have $2000 Gibson's hanging by the furnace vent in a store in Columbus Ohio in the dead of winter. The top is cracked because it has dried out. You would be LUCKY if none of those other guitars is suffering the same fate. I didn't do anything to your guitar, you just have no business running a guitar shop if you don't know how to properly care for these guitars." And so I offer you the same advice. You have no business posting in this thread.

[Etienne Rambert]

I'm going to stop picking on NeilP. His mistake of believing my acoustic

tone was being amplified, is actually quite a compliment.

 

His "lottery" comment was ignorant and pissed me off. But I'll give it a rest.

I've got him on 'IGNORE" anyway.

 

For the record:

 

1. People who live in dry places need to carefully humidify their guitars.

 

2. They should avoid thick, shiny, brittle finishes. I do.

 

3. These guitars are made in a place that averages 80% annual relative

humidity. But in reality, that moves between 50-60% 6 months

a year and 90-100% 6 months a year. There are only two seasons here,

WET & DRY.

 

4. I am on the ground here. I see the quality. I know the makers. I can get

things fixed before I buy. So I'm comfortable buying these guitars. I would not

buy instruments from either of the dealers on EBay. But I would buy

accessories & guitar parts from them.

 

5. The best of these guitars, sound a lot different & a lot better from anything

you can buy in the States at twice the price. There are some things they still

can't do over here. They can't make a neck like my Guild F65ce.

 

6. The electric pick-ups you get over here aren't very good. They're made in

Korea. The tuning machines aren't very good. It's hard to find good strings.

 

7. One HCAG forumite recently bought a burst 335-style chambered body from

one of Binh's competitor's shop. It's a beautiful instrument. But I don't like the

way the pick-ups sound. Dunno if he'll ever review his guitars on my youtube

channel. I've asked him twice.

[OldGuitarPlayer]

Well they seem like nice guitars to me. The video of the archtop was nice although it's always hard to judge the sound from a YouTube recording although I am using a pair of decent headphones to listen.

I have no idea what the argument is here. Most guitars in this world are made in Asia. First Japan, Korea, China and Indonesia. I have seen videos of one of these factories on YouTube (a chinese one) and apparently it's one of many contracted to build the lower end Squire and Epiphone guitars. Not all of these factories would live up to our idea of safety standards and the guitars are not always built in "ideal" conditions. Most notably the video of the chinese factory. Fine workmanship and attention to detail doesn't look like the norm at these places. On the contrary, it looks like these people are working in a such a fashion as to crank out as many guitars a day as possible.

I don't presume to know anything about guitar manufacture but I bet that the ones from this small Vietnamese maker would be an outstanding value considering the materials used (all solid woods etc). I'd rather buy one of his guitars than say a chinese made Epiphone Masterbilt.

Obviously the bottom line is that if you have an all solid wood guitar made from anywhere it's always best to humidify it.

Just my take on the thing...

[NealP]

 

Neal, it's become a pissing contest. Put your penis away and let it go. (The thread that is. Hang on to your penis if you wish.)

 

 

FBH, grow a set. We still don't know what you think, do you agree with the statement "a guitar built in a wet environment stands a better chance of falling apart than a guitar built in a controlled environment" ?

 

Or do you think it's just some fancy high-falutin' city talk that don't mean nuttin'? Because that is what this whole thing is about.

 

Perhaps you're right, I should just let it go, it is the internet, after all. One born every {censored}ing minute, PT was right.

[NealP]

1. My laptop doesn't even have a "proper speaker" it's a compact travel model with a single little speaker thing in one corner. 2. I'm serious, it was obvious from the clip he started amplified (the reverb is a dead giveaway ) and then he reaches over and turns it all down, going for the acoustic sound of the guitar which is noticeably different...and sounds...un-amplified to anyone that has been playing guitars for more than 3 months or so. 3. I gave you the benefit of the doubt in a previous post, but SERIOUSLY if you have to say "some ears are different" to see and hear the difference between the acoustic and amplified sounds, then you HAVE NO BUSINESS POSTING IN THIS THREAD, leave alone the "acoustic" forum. You must be completely and utterly deaf and using adaptive technology on your computer to not see and hear the obvious differences in what was being demonstrated. 4. I did not "spank" you- your ignorance has become overwhelmingly obvious. You now remind me of some other "experts" I came across. They ran a music shop on Ohio State's campus. They carried some high end Gibson acoustics (a few) and they put them on the wall way up high so no one could get at them. .........right by the furnace vent. :facepalm: One day I asked to try one out (I've been in the market for a decade for a Gibson acoustic) and they got one down for me- I played it for a couple of minutes and then said "Hey, did you know the top is split from the soundhole to the bridge on this guitar?" and they had THE NERVE to ask me "What did you do to that guitar!?!?!?!" It was all I could do not to slap the living piss out of the guy. :mad: I pointed at the row of Gibsons near the ceiling by the vent (in the dead of winter) and said "Look asshole, you have no climate control in here. You have $2000 Gibson's hanging by the furnace vent in a store in Columbus Ohio in the dead of winter. The top is cracked because it has dried out. You would be LUCKY if none of those other guitars is suffering the same fate. I didn't do anything to your guitar, you just have no business running a guitar shop if you don't know how to properly care for these guitars." And so I offer you the same advice. You have no business posting in this thread.

 

 

Hey Bryan, I gave you the benefit of the doubt by apologizing to your statement, and not being a dick toward you, but really, your thread indicates you are an acoustic god, where is your music, how do we know? At least I have my youtubes up for you to see I'm not totally clueless. So, thank you for your participation in this discussion, but you can go away now. Why should I believe that you know what you are talking about, take your word...on the internet... everyone's an expert. Including the dick that started the thread?

 

I only see 2 guys here defending this asshole and his bad guitars, and from the view count, the odds are not in your favor, and quite frankly, am concerned that you know anything about guitars at all in the first place.

[NealP]

Well they seem like nice guitars to me. The video of the archtop was nice although it's always hard to judge the sound from a YouTube recording although I am using a pair of decent headphones to listen. I have no idea what the argument is here. Most guitars in this world are made in Asia. First Japan, Korea, China and Indonesia. I have seen videos of one of these factories on YouTube (a chinese one) and apparently it's one of many contracted to build the lower end Squire and Epiphone guitars. Not all of these factories would live up to our idea of safety standards and the guitars are not always built in "ideal" conditions. Most notably the video of the chinese factory. Fine workmanship and attention to detail doesn't look like the norm at these places. On the contrary, it looks like these people are working in a such a fashion as to crank out as many guitars a day as possible. I don't presume to know anything about guitar manufacture but I bet that the ones from this small Vietnamese maker would be an outstanding value considering the materials used (all solid woods etc). I'd rather buy one of his guitars than say a chinese made Epiphone Masterbilt. Obviously the bottom line is that if you have an all solid wood guitar made from anywhere it's always best to humidify it. Just my take on the thing...

 

Then you haven't been paying attention. What has Etty's undies in a bundle, as well as a few others, is the statement:

 

"Guitars built in high humidity stand a better than average chance of falling apart than a guitar built in a controlled environment."

 

This is the statement that started it all. This is what caused the {censored}storm, this is what I had the audacity to write. So you go ahead and believe it's a good value, please purchase one, and good luck when you bring it home to the US. A guitar built in Epiphone's factory in China has, believe it or not, climate control. Yes, there's a reason for that. One that goes beyond the comprehension of a few posters here.

 

Just my take on the thing.

[NealP]

I'm going to stop picking on NeilP. His mistake of believing my acoustic tone was being amplified, is actually quite a compliment. His "lottery" comment was ignorant and pissed me off. But I'll give it a rest. I've got him on 'IGNORE" anyway. For the record: 1. People who live in dry places need to carefully humidify their guitars. 2. They should avoid thick, shiny, brittle finishes. I do. 3. These guitars are made in a place that averages 80% annual relative humidity. But in reality, that moves between 50-60% 6 months a year and 90-100% 6 months a year. There are only two seasons here, WET & DRY. 4. I am on the ground here. I see the quality. I know the makers. I can get things fixed before I buy. So I'm comfortable buying these guitars. I would not buy instruments from either of the dealers on EBay. But I would buy accessories & guitar parts from them. 5. The best of these guitars, sound a lot different & a lot better from anything you can buy in the States at twice the price. There are some things they still can't do over here. They can't make a neck like my Guild F65ce. 6. The electric pick-ups you get over here aren't very good. They're made in Korea. The tuning machines aren't very good. It's hard to find good strings. 7. One HCAG forumite recently bought a burst 335-style chambered body from one of Binh's competitor's shop. It's a beautiful instrument. But I don't like the way the pick-ups sound. Dunno if he'll ever review his guitars on my youtube channel. I've asked him twice.

 

 

I knew it wouldn't be long.

[OldGuitarPlayer]

Then you haven't been paying attention. What has Etty's undies in a bundle, as well as a few others, is the statement: "Guitars built in high humidity stand a better than average chance of falling apart than a guitar built in a controlled environment." This is the statement that started it all. This is what caused the {censored}storm, this is what I had the audacity to write. So you go ahead and believe it's a good value, please purchase one, and good luck when you bring it home to the US. A guitar built in Epiphone's factory in China has, believe it or not, climate control. Yes, there's a reason for that. One that goes beyond the comprehension of a few posters here. Just my take on the thing.

I beg to differ....Watch closely until the end were you will see acoustic guitars being made. Yep...there's some good climate control going on there....

[YOUTUBE]nFFvrHHct70[/YOUTUBE]

First of all, I never said I would buy one of these Vietnamese guitars. I just said that they seem like a good value ($225 for an all solid wood archtop).

I have never said I know anything about guitar building or manufacture. All I mentioned was the mere fact that most factories in Asia do not conform to our standards of safety or attention to detail say like Larivee or even the Gibson USA factory. What is it about that you can't seem to read in my post. Was I at anytime sracastic or being condescending? Just who the {censored} do you think you are?

What seems to have your panties in a twist is that you keep saying the same {censored} over and over. I am saying that if you buy an all solid wood instrument from anywhere the best idea is to keep it humidified. What is it about that don't you understand?

Also, your sarcasm and condescending attitude towards my post was not aprreciated. I was just stating a fact. If you don't like facts than that's your problem.



Now..I am done with reading anymore of this bull{censored}. Carry on.

(thank god for the ignore feature)

[NealP]

First of all, I never said I would buy one of these Vietnamese guitars. I just said that they seem like a good value ($225 for an all solid wood archtop). I have never said I know anything about guitar building or manufacture. All I mentioned was the mere fact that most factories in Asia do not conform to our standards of safety or attention to detail say like Larivee or even the Gibson USA factory. What is it about that you can't seem to read in my post. Was I at anytime sracastic or being condescending? Just who the {censored} do you think you are? What seems to have your panties in a twist is that you keep saying the same {censored} over and over. I am saying that if you buy an all solid wood instrument from anywhere the best idea is to keep it humidified. What is it about that don't you understand? Also, your sarcasm and condescending attitude towards my post was not aprreciated. I was just stating a fact. If you don't like facts than that's your problem. Now..I am done with reading anymore of this bull{censored}. Carry on. (thank god for the ignore feature)

 

I'm not sure where you got that whole anger/condescension thing from my post, and am sorry you took offense, it wasn't condescending, it was frustrated, that's all. But, since I'm now on YOUR ignore list, you'll never get this. Could someone quote this so he can read my apology?

 

On the video, btw, you'll notice the clothes they're wearing, it's cool and dry. Not written in a condescending tone, in the event you read this.

 

 

I'll tell ya though, I like a good pissing match just like you all do, heck, I even offered to stop it, was complimentary and polite a page or two back to the OP, but he loves a pissing match too. FBH wants me to put my dick away, but he loves reading a good pissing match. Bryan thinks I'm acoustically challenged because of an internet video, and the funny thing is, he's ANGRY about it, and he likes a good pissing match too.

 

Boys, it's just the internet. Would one of you please tell me what is wrong with "guitars built in high humidity stand a better chance of falling apart than those that are built in normal conditions." What is causing this primal anger over that position? While I'm sure that 90% of it is personality, ie: I'm abrasive and an asshole, forget that for a moment and think on the statement.

 

Until you can find issue with that, my work is not finished here. It's a holy crusade of education, and Jeebus is on my side, he was a carpenter, but even he wouldn't build a lyre in a steambath.

 

More emoticons, that's the answer!

 

But seriously, what's the problem with that? Did I ruin your fantasies? Did I do something wrong by telling you that the girl you've been ogling is really a man? Look for the Adam's Apple and the bulge in the shorts. In this case, all you have to do is google Vietnamese guitars, and you'll find that your hot chick has a dick.

[fastblueheeler]

FBH, grow a set. We still don't know what you think, do you agree with the statement "a guitar built in a wet environment stands a better chance of falling apart than a guitar built in a controlled environment" ? Or do you think it's just some fancy high-falutin' city talk that don't mean nuttin'? Because that is what this whole thing is about. Perhaps you're right, I should just let it go, it is the internet, after all. One born every {censored}ing minute, PT was right.

 

 

Neal, it doesn't take a "set" to post opinions on an internet forum, as you have proven. :poke:. But as for my opinion on the big topic; I have no idea, I'm not a luthier or expert on wood. Folks with a lot more knowledge than me have given their opinions. I enjoyed the post for what it was; kind of a travelogue and write up about handmade guitars in small shops with lots of cool pictures. You've taken it on as a one man crusade against ER's guitars and you just absolutely have to have the last word. I can sympathize with ER because we get kind of emotional about our guitars and don't like to see them disparaged. (How's that for high-falutin city talk?) But I can't understand your obsession with returning again and again to say the same thing.

[FretFiend.]

... I'm abrasive and an asshole,...

 

 

As one abrasive asshole to another, why don't you give it a rest. :poke:

[Chordchunker]

Nope. Not better. I never claimed mine was better. Show me the quote. If I did, mea culpa . I don't think I did. But I did claim it was louder than a Benedetto. And it is -- by quite a lot. Amp surgeon isn't the only forumite who bought guitars here. There've been at least 4, that I know about. Two will review their guitars on the channel. They're from dry states too.

Fine..Your guitar is the best in the world! None better! Benedetto`s cringe when you walk by.. It seems like evrey one of your posts is bragging about your viet made guitar.. I don`t get it.. It looks/sounds like many other cheap pacrim guitars. Are you selling them? Why are you so militant about it? Is it because your skills are lacking ?

[guitarcapo]

Well maybe I can offer up my own experience/education on this issue of wood and humidity:

When lumber is freshly cut, it has a water content that you can measure...but the number that you obtain isn't the whole story. It can be misleading.

Wood is composed of cells, each with a water impermeable cell wall and bound together with other cells by components in the extracellular space. Therefore, there's actually two kinds of water: Extracellular and intracellular. You can think on the wood cells as these tight little pockets where water is trapped like bubbles...and then more water on the outside of the cells. When new wood is dried, the water outside the cells freely interacts with the surrounding air to equilibrium, but the water inside the cells doesn't. When you MEASURE the moisture content in new wood, it's measuring BOTH together...But the water inside and outside the cells isn't at equilibrium to each other.

Now when you dry wood in a kiln, you pull water out of the extracellular space...but it's tougher to get it out of the intracellular space....and it's brutally pulled out. Also, since it's not a gradual process, the chemical reactions that go on as the cell walls gradualy break down are subverted.
This is why luthiers seem to prize wood that is aged naturally for years over kiln-dried wood...and insist that wood stored and aged naturally has a musical quality to it that wood dried in a kiln doesn't...even though both have the same moisture content. Basically the integrity of the cell walls is maintained better with natural drying. The walls are more uniformly permeable as the water inside the cells and outside echieve equilibrium...also the chemical "glue" holding the cell walls together outside the cells is more uniform
because the water wasn't brutally "yanked" out of the cells by seasoning the wood in a kiln.

Now here's my point: It's my opinion that wood aged naturally also is more stable to fluctuations in humidity. The water flows more freely from intracellular to extracellular space so you don't get cracking of the wood because of focal areas in the wood that aren't in balance. The entire piece of wood has a uniform degradation (and permeabilty) of the cell walls. Humidty fluctuations are spread out over a wide area. Also this wood springs back to normal more readily and warps don't occur because the wood is more uniformly resposive over the whole area to humidity fluctuations.

My final point in all this is that how the wood is cut and seasoned might play a HUGE role in how the wood will perform in service and might be the source of all this argument on how wood reacts to humidity. A small shop that dries its wood naturally without a kiln might actually be using wood that's more stable than a "high tech" guitar factory that kiln dries all those board feet of tops, backs and sides.

Your mileage may vary. Personally with my own building experience I can't deny that age does something to tonewood than no kiln or high tech process can match in terms of sound AND stabilty. And believe me it's my personal obsession to debunk myths in lutherie.

I also might throw in that sometimes a certain piece of wood wants to crack and warp no matter what you do. This might be due to something to do with the wood's location on the tree. I've heard people call this wood "reaction wood" with theories that wood obtained from the base of a tree is under huge compressive forces due to the weight of the tree and withstanding wind etc...Some luthiers go so far as to not want to work wih wood obtained from the bottom of the tree or "stump wood"...I'm just offering this up as a theory but I will offer that I've occasionally had that one guitar that seemed to develop multiple cracks easily with little 'provocation" while other guitars build exactly under the same conditions show none at all over the same many years. This is especially true of Brazilian rosewood. Sometimes one guitar will just be like that no matter what the humidity conditions are during the build or after....To the point that I sometimes believe cracks sometimes are more a
problem of fate than anything you can prevent under reasonable conditions.

[NealP]

 

Well maybe I can offer up my own experience/education on this issue of wood and humidity:

 

 

With all due respect, would that be in agreement or disagreement to the statement "guitars built in a very humid environment have a better chance of needing serious repairs when moved to a drier climate than a guitar built in a controlled environment".

[NealP]

Neal, it doesn't take a "set" to post opinions on an internet forum, as you have proven. :poke:. But as for my opinion on the big topic ; I have no idea, I'm not a luthier or expert on wood. Folks with a lot more knowledge than me have given their opinions. I enjoyed the post for what it was; kind of a travelogue and write up about handmade guitars in small shops with lots of cool pictures. You've taken it on as a one man crusade against ER's guitars and you just absolutely have to have the last word. I can sympathize with ER because we get kind of emotional about our guitars and don't like to see them disparaged. (How's that for high-falutin city talk?) But I can't understand your obsession with returning again and again to say the same thing.

 

 

Ha! Thank you for caring enough to add your opinion to a subject you neither care about nor have any knowledge about. I'm not being condescending or sarcastic either when I say this. You don't like to see fights or bad feelings, and you'd like the world to get along. Those are good traits.

 

My only "obsession", FBH, is what is so controversial about this:

A guitar stands a better than average chance of needing serious repair when built in a wet environment(80-90%rh) and moved to a drier environment than a guitar built in a controlled (40-50%) place.

It seems that whenever I bring that up, it irritates folks, and none more than the original poster. So, you see, that is the question. What about that statement is so controversial and wrong?

 

I can't blame you for sympathizing with the OP, he does have more posts than I.:poke: And maybe stands to lose a bit of income were people to realize this.

[NealP]

 

As one abrasive asshole to another, why don't you give it a rest. :poke:

 

 

Damn if you're not correct, perfectly correct. Just one more. I'll wait a bit though.

[Greg.Coal]

I don't dispute that guitars need care, yes of course they do. These guitars however, as has been demonstrated , will not last outside their environment of high humidity, plain and simple.

 

 

I thought that the original poster (repeatedly) claimed that of his 5, 6 or 7 guitars he's brought back (to his air conditioning in the states) either one or none have failed. I understand the theory that guitars built in a more humid environment will shrink more later and could cause problems but, when he presents (demonstrates) his many exceptions to the theory, it suggests that the theory needs some qualifications and refining.

 

As someone else said, not all wood is equivalent, if only based on the chemistry of aging.

 

I have a Lowden (made in Ireland). I owned it 15 years in Tucson Arizona (7% RH common) and now in Colorado. Maybe twice a year I remembered to wet the soundhole humidifier, if that often. It's fine and has no cracks. George Lowden has been drying and storing wood longer than most if not all of the Asian manufacturers so I wouldn't be surprised if the otherwise high quality Asian wood would crack before the traditionally managed stock. We are buying Asian-made solid wood instruments probably faster than the wood can be properly prepared.

 

Also, worth pointing out that instrument humidifiers are relatively recent in the history of stringed, solid wood instruments. I know that there is probably a history of instrument failures, too, but they are not the norm. Somehow, fine woodcraft and musical instruments could survive and I hope that we haven't lost the knowledge that people knew then (pre-humidifiers).

 

Plus, I read the whole thread in one sitting: original poster never said the archtop was better than a Benedetto but made numerous references to the loudness. And since this is an acoustic forum, it's not unexpected that people will start a thread to tell others about something they are excited about.

 

Joining wood where the grain is perpendicular will always be a problem and is probably one that craftsmen understood long ago and had/have ways to deal with it or lessen the chances of a failure. I doubt that included "remember, you must keep your house at 40-50% relative humidity year round".

 

It is reasonable to believe that the guitar builder the original poster buys guitars from has good (and probably traditional) techniques to manage his wood properly. I worked in an organ pipe workshop in Switzerland a long time ago and the care and management of harvested and rough sawn wood was very specific and how they had been doing it for many hundreds of years. I spent some days just turning stacked (with spacers) wood where it was stored out in fields (under a tin roof - like in VietNam) for years before it was usable for organ construction.

 

And, as to the suggestion that the original poster has an economic interest: he may, but how much will it add up to when the guitars sell for $300 each? He says that he doesn't, so why do people repeat their claim on these forums and essentially claim that the other is lying? That's pretty serious - especially when nothing really is at stake here - and yet these people say that they will keep posting to "educate us".

 

This has been a great thread until the one poster decided to intrude to educate us that the original poster's guitars will disintegrate - contrary to what is actually happening - and also lower the level of civility. My understanding is that it has been popular and well received. I hope he continues with this excellent story line from VN. Plus, that"grey goose" guitar really does sound great.

 

Greg

[guitarcapo]

With all due respect, would that be in agreement or disagreement to the statement "guitars built in a very humid environment have a better chance of needing serious repairs when moved to a drier climate than a guitar built in a controlled environment".

 

 

I guess what I'm saying is that it might depend heavily of factors like how the wood was cut, how it was seasoned, the species of the wood, and where it was on the tree that the wood was obtained. So heavily as to make concerns about the humidity "where it was made and where it was played" not really a factor. Basically "maybe yes maybe no" based on other factors in the build. Did you read my post?

 

 

I guess you could extrapolate this to mean that a guitar built in a controlled environment would be better off if the wood was prone to issues. But the other side of that is that a guitar may crack even if the humidity is controlled (other factors overwhelming the guitar even though humidity was controlled)

 

 

Someone can make an argument that you'll never get in an air crash if you never ride a plane, but you give up the benefits of efficient long distance transportation for the piece of mind of something very unlikely. In the case of these guitars, you're giving up the benefit of inexpensive, hand made all-wood guitars for something that's also a chance occurance based on factors probably outside total control even with humidity controls. I've seen guitars kept in very anal humidity environments have issues...they were just high maintenance guitars. Didn't sound any better or play nicer, they were just that way because of the wood and other factors in the build. I guess my point is you don't necessarily eliminate those problems 100% anyway so maybe it's not as important to woory about.

[NealP]

I guess what I'm saying is that it might depend heavily of factors like how the wood was cut, how it was seasoned, the species of the wood, and where it was on the tree that the wood was obtained. So heavily as to make concerns about the humidity "where it was made and where it was played" not really a factor. Basically "maybe yes maybe no" based on other factors in the build. Did you read my post? I guess you could extrapolate this to mean that a guitar built in a controlled environment would be better off if the wood was prone to issues. But the other side of that is that a guitar may crack even if the humidity is controlled (other factors overwhelming the guitar even though humidity was controlled) Someone can make an argument that you'll never get in an air crash if you never ride a plane, but you give up the benefits of efficient long distance transportation for the piece of mind of something very unlikely. In the case of these guitars, you're giving up the benefit of inexpensive, hand made all-wood guitars for something that's also a chance occurance based on factors probably outside total control even with humidity controls. I've seen guitars kept in very anal humidity environments have issues...they were just high maintenance guitars. Didn't sound any better or play nicer, they were just that way because of the wood and other factors in the build. I guess my point is you don't necessarily eliminate those problems 100% anyway so maybe it's not as important to woory about.

 

You must be an engineer. :facepalm:

 

ALL OTHER FACTORS BEING EQUAL -guitars built in a very humid environment have a better chance of needing serious repairs when moved to a drier climate than a guitar built in a controlled environment.

 

 

Howzat? Easier to say yea or nay?

 

Ok, I'm done now kids, carry on, enjoy the travelogue, I know I won't be missed in this thread, feel free to PM me, check out my yoo tubes, I love you all. But FretFiend's advice really is spot on. Bless his dark little soul.

[guitarcapo]

-guitars built in a very humid environment have a better chance of needing serious repairs when moved to a drier climate than a guitar built in a controlled environment. Howzat? Easier to say yea or nay? Ok, I'm done now kids, carry on, enjoy the travelogue, I know I won't be missed in this thread, feel free to PM me, check out my yoo tubes, I love you all. But FretFiend's advice really is spot on. Bless his dark little soul.

You're asking for a simple answer to a complicated problem and apparently irritated when one isn't forthcoming. "All factors" are NEVER equal. Saying yea or nay is impossible. And they overwhelm the single factor you keep harping on like a fly's fart in a hurricane.
It's a common myopic problem in lutherie. Let's examine this one factor and try to isolate it from all others and then try and get some meaningful information that's useful from it. Sorry but it doesn't work that way.

Some people might believe that painting a car red gives it high performance,
because they've personally noticed that red cars show higher performance.
An intelligent person observes that red paint is used more often on sports cars and THAT is the reason behind the correlation (and not some magic in the paint)


By the same token, all the factors I mention will overwhelm the one factor (humidity controls throughout the lifetime of the guitar) that you keep coming back to. Keeping a guitar under uniform humidity conditions is a good idea, but if the guitar is built poorly it will crack anyway....And a well built guitar won't. Basically all the other factors in the build overwhelm humidty concerns. It's as complicated as that.

BTW I'm an optometrist who builds guitars as a hobby