Jump to content

A visit to a Vietnamese Guitar factory


Etienne Rambert
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Members
Tropical, near Equatorial. Hot & wet. In the US, the closest analogues

would be New Orleans or Houston. I don't know if there are any places in Europe

with that climate.




I don't sell guitars. But I am here. I have selected each one I've bought, in person -

not from a photo on EBay. And every one of them has been a winner.


There's another forumite here who buys instruments & parts from here.

Runn3r. He is an Aussie & builds some beautiful instruments.


It makes a lot of sense to buy here - if you are already here,

or flying through. If you're adding in shipping costs, it's more risky & expensive.

You're not dealing with MF.


That beautiful guitar (above), cost me $300.




Thanks for that info - well here in the uk at this very moment humidity is around 72. Its generally been that during the winter period as well. Summers generally clammy - now in southern europe the heat is a lot dryer.

Phil

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 554
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Members

I said..

It REALLY cracks me up to hear people moaning about conditions and lack of humidity control etc...


Firstly if you install lots of expensive equipement...well then you need to upscale, so buy machines to produce more, and basically end up losing not only the quality but also the SATISFACTION of making something of quality....(not to mention getting heavily in debt to do so, have intense pressure to sell etc....)


Secondly the photos seem to show people who have their destiny in their own hands, who work for themselves, and who are making a damn good job of it. (a LOT of people in industrialised countries are unable to say the same thing..!).




When a guitar is made in a shop with no humidity control, as long as it stays in the neighborhood, it should be ok. As soon as it ships outside it's zone, the chances it will warp, crack, fall to pieces are worth placing money bets on.


So I'm not sure what you think is funny about building conditions.




Sorry, but I think you misunderstood me....I don't thnk anything is funny about the building conditions...these guitar makers seem to be doing an admirable job....regardless of the conditions.


What cracks me up is the moaning about the conditions.. as someone said much earlier in this thread...I doubt that buying and installing an expensive humidity control system is an option for this guitar-maker, so what is he supposed to do....close himself down...:confused: ?

I don't hear anyone complaining that Martin or Taylor don't systematically deep scan every inch of the wood that goes into their guitars (just found a site about "Defect localisation in wood with low frequency Ultrasonic Echo Technique") which could conceivably pick up some flaws in wood and so help ensure higher standards (not that anyone actually talks about guitars at that site..:lol:)...now if all guitar makers got set up for this I guess the average price of guitars would go up too....and pretty soon only lawyers, dentists and politicians would be able to buy guitars...:thu:

These guys seem to be turning out high quality guitars for around two or three hundred dollars.....I don't know about in the US, but there are a lot of people in France who spend 10 euros a week on lotto tickets....I figure if you're passing through VN don't play lotto for 6 months and bet on one of these guitars..!

The guys working on tiny benches are pretty typical of what I"ve seen in Asia where a lot of people will tell you that it's unhealthy to spend to long sitting in a chair, insisting that a 'deep squat' (feet flat on the floor, butt tucked against the back of your ankles) is much better for your body (for people who have done this all through their life I think they're probably right!). I don't find much that's really shocking (although I'll take someone's word that the chemical finishers are dangerous etc etc..). BUT as I said if they're working for themselves and getting on in the world, then more power to them! Nobody is forcing anyone to buy these guitars, and I figure that the people who do are doing so with their eyes open...I can't see any reason to complain about anything...


Anyway all I wanted to say was that you can't have everything for 300 bucks...but I'm keeping my eyes open for that Lowden being sold in a junk sale for 25 euros...;(without holding my breath too much...:facepalm:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

It's admirable and good that employment is made in a small shop in a 3rd world country.

 

As to bringing these guitars built in these conditions, high humidity, very, very high humidity, home to England or the US, it's just not as good a bet as lotto. Cheap? Oh yes, and there are two guys on eBay that most definitely make an attractive guitar. The problem is that most of them that reach the US end up as wall hangers very soon.

 

For a business concern in this area, guitars, I would think that investing in air conditioning for your factory would be priority one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

It's admirable and good that employment is made in a small shop in a 3rd world country.


As to bringing these guitars built in these conditions, high humidity, very, very high humidity, home to England or the US, it's just not as good a bet as lotto
. Cheap? Oh yes, and there are two guys on eBay that most definitely make an attractive guitar. The problem is that most of them that reach the US end up as wall hangers very soon.


For a business concern in this area, guitars, I would think that investing in air conditioning for your factory would be priority one.

 

You keep repeating yourself, and I've already told you.

I have shipped guitars to different locations in the US five times.

 

Not one has any of the problems you mentioned.

And one of them - is now, the best-sounding guitar I own.

 

I have not won the lottery five times.

I have not won the lottery even once.

 

If one takes care of them, keeps 'em humidified,

they may need a re-set or a fret job down the road.

But these things don't "crack, warp or fall apart."

 

That's just bogus.

 

Yeah, if somebody ships a guitar from here to bone-dry California

and doesn't keep it humidified, he or she may have a problem.

 

But that's universally true of guitars, where-ever they are built.

If you live in a dry place, you need to humidify them.

 

And I'm not selling these things. I sold one to a guy who lives here,

because I couldn't justify having five guitars sitting around. That's the

only guitar I've ever sold in my life.

 

But any guitarist with a brain, who walks down luthier street in Saigon,

will be buying one of these to take back home. Guaranteed.

 

It's a no-brainer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

You keep repeating yourself, and I've already told you.

I have shipped guitars to different locations in the US
five times.



It's a no-brainer.

 

Please forgive my repetition. I'll repeat myself again, just for you: I'm happy that you've had great success with your guitars. I am not calling into question your personal experience. Just oddly lucky with the guitars you've sent to more arid climates.

 

You are also starting to sound like you actually do have a financial stake in these. Nothing wrong with that at all, but the no-brainer thing? I think the lottery is still better.

 

Repetition#2 --I have read countless times the laments of customers of the two Vietnamese eBay sellers, and while not a luthier, am not unacquainted with proper build technique, care and repair, and it goes to figure that if a guitar is built wet, which is what you get in that country without proper building conditions, they stand a much larger than average chance of falling apart. So 300 dollars would be good if you live in Louisiana or the Philippines, or Vietnam, but inland or cold areas or the Midwest, well, you take your chances.

 

Even guitars built at, let's say the Martin Factory in Nazareth, PA, everyone knows Martin, they build in a constant temp and relative humidity year around. In the Midwest winter, one would humidify the instrument to keep it around 40-50% RH, yes? Well, that guitar was built in 50% or so RH. If you take a guitar built in 80-90% humidity, it stands to reason that the level of it's humidity needs will be much higher, and unless you have a tropical greenhouse in your living room, when the temp reaches 10, and the forced air is engaged.. well let's just say it's certainly a conundrum for that poor guitar.

 

Now perhaps your factory there has a climate control, and if so, good for them! If not, and it's 80-90% humidity, it's a no-brainer for one living inland in the US not to throw a dollar at it.

 

So, you see that I'm not questioning your particular experience, I'm only stating that the odds, given the nature of WOOD, dictate otherwise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

OK...step back...theres no biting or gouging...OH...and no kicking either...OK...cue Samilyn walking around the ring in a bikini with a big sign and... off she goes and...... DING...round two!

 

Sam's played one of my VN guitars. She can tell you about the sound. As I recall, we both agreed

that it killed my Guild D40 dreadnought in tone.

 

It's probably the best-sounding guitar I own today. It kills my D60.

And it's been four years. It hasn't cracked, warped, fallen apart or disintegrated yet.

I may need a neck reset on it in a couple of years though. The saddle is a little low.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members



My disposition is not well-suited for arguing with idiots.


Saigon has average 80% relative humidity year round.

If that's what you call climate control. The factory has climate control.

 

I have been rather polite in my discourse, I see that this is impossible for you. So sad that you seem to take what I've said personal, and seemingly lack the ability to understand what I've been trying to say. Perhaps it's a language barrier?

 

Let me re-iterate, and I'll try to do it in a very basic way for you. A GUITAR BUILT IN WET CONDITIONS STANDS MUCH LESS OF A CHANCE OF SURVIVAL THAN A GUITAR BUILT IN A CLIMATE CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT.

 

There. Was that so hard to get? I'm glad, again, that you've had good luck with your guitar, and that it's a D-? killer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I have been rather polite in my discourse, I see that this is impossible for you. So sad that you seem to take what I've said personal, and seemingly lack the ability to understand what I've been trying to say. Perhaps it's a language barrier?


Let me re-iterate, and I'll try to do it in a very basic way for you. A GUITAR BUILT IN WET CONDITIONS STANDS MUCH LESS OF A CHANCE OF SURVIVAL THAN A GUITAR BUILT IN A CLIMATE CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT.


There. Was that so hard to get? I'm glad, again, that you've had good luck with your guitar, and that it's a D-? killer.

 

It's interesting that this thread has been around here longer than you have... and it's been a pretty civilized thread... until you showed up. :thu::evil::cop:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
It's admirable and good that employment is made in a small shop in a 3rd world country.


As to bringing these guitars built in these conditions, high humidity, very, very high humidity, home to England or the US,
it's just not as good a bet as lotto
. Cheap? Oh yes, and there are two guys on eBay that most definitely make an attractive guitar. The problem is that most of them that reach the US end up as wall hangers very soon.


For a business concern in this area, guitars, I would think that investing in air conditioning for your factory would be priority one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
But you didn't say that. You said it was like winning the lottery.




That being the case, I've won the lottery 8 or 9 times.

That's how many guitars I've bought here. (Not on EBay).


My offer of a wager to you still stands.


An HCAG forumite specifies the guitar. I make sure it's good before it's

shipped. You & I split the cost of the guitar (which I will keep low ) & shipping to the US.


The forumite gets a free guitar & agrees to review it and properly care for it.


And we see if it
cracks, warps or falls apart
.


At the end of the time period, we agree on - you pay up an amount we agree on.

***


BTW, I earn my living writing -- in English.

But there is a language barrier between you & I.


Words like "lottery" obviously mean something different to each of us.




NO..! This is simply unfair..! Let's do this properly....You two buy a guitar and send it to me to look after,...AND you split the price of a top-of-the-line Lowden/Santa Cruz/Martin etc (your choice!) and send me that too so that I can compare the warping/splitting etc...(!). :cool:

As soon as one has a problem I'll let you know and you can settle the money difference between you for both guitars....how does that sound...? :thu:


On a (slightly) more serious note, if I knew that I was going to VM I really would be tempted to pick up one of these guitars....

It's one thing to be suspicious of cheap mass-produced Asian guitars that sound mediocre...and quite another to pick up something that really impresses you at a bargain price and take the risk of bringing it home....

People buy crap guitars everyday for 300$ and frankly there isn't a hope in hell that a crap guitar will ever outshine a D60...but judging from what I've heard about these things....as I say..I'd be sorely tempted....

(Honey...you ever been to VM....Have I got a surprise for you..!!) :facepalm:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Let's do this properly....
You two
buy a guitar and send it to
me
to look after,...AND you split the price of a top-of-the-line
Lowden/Santa Cruz/Martin
etc (your choice!) and send me that too so that I can compare the warping/splitting etc...(!).
:cool:

As soon as one has a problem I'll let you know and you can settle the money difference between you for both guitars....how does that sound...?
:thu:


On a (slightly) more serious note, if I knew that I was going to VM I really would be tempted to pick up one of these guitars....


It's one thing to be suspicious of cheap mass-produced Asian guitars that sound mediocre...and quite another to pick up something that really impresses you at a bargain price and take the risk of bringing it home....


People buy crap guitars everyday for 300$ and frankly there isn't a hope in hell that a crap guitar will ever outshine a D60...but judging from what I've heard about these things....as I say..I'd be sorely tempted....


(Honey...you ever been to VM....Have I got a surprise for you..!!)
:facepalm:

 

 

It's the 'lottery' comment that ticked me off.

My offer still stands (no Santa Cruz though, sorry).

 

Concerning the Taiwanese sellers on EBay (who build in VN),

I've always said. I'd buy guitar parts from them, tailpieces,

fingerboards, etc. There is one forumite here who does that.

He makes the guitars in Australia & does some beautiful work.

 

I wouldn't buy a finished guitar from them. But I don't need to.

I'll probably buy one more guitar from Binh, it will be an oval-hole

arch-top. I'll bring it back to the US. I don't have an arch-top in the US.

 

But right now, I need a decent synth more than I need another guitar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

In my personal experience, it's LOW humidity conditions that are bad for guitars. There's a huge problem (for example) building a guitar in 40-50% humidity and shipping it to someplace that's 15-20%...But it's no big deal shipping a guitar built in 75% to 80% humidity to someplace 45-50%....And both guitars fare about the same shipped to someplace that's 15-20% (equally poor with the guitar made in high humidity behaving the same as the 50% guitar)

Aged properly seasoned tonewood acts like a sponge....but after a given value (say about 50%?) it doesn't "suck" additional moisture out of the air readily.

That would correspond more to Rambert's experience more.

I build guitars in Florida and have no problem working on them in my garage and bringing the guitars indoors and out, taking them to the beach etc. They stay pretty much the same action and no cracks or problems year round, indoors or out. I had a HORRIBLE time with humidty problems in NYC where
dry heating in my winter apartment ATE my guitars up. I have to "recharge" the humidifiers in my guitar cases weekly. The little sponges in them would dry hard as a rock that fast.

I actually have all my guitars hanging from a wall in my guitar room. (about 20 of them) and never have any action problems with any of them. tyhe room looks like a guitar store. I wouldn't THINk of doing something like that in my Manhattan apartment with it's radiator heater.

The only problem I DO experience is that the strings get rusty fast hanging outside.
I have to change strings on the guitars often...but it's worth it to me to have them all at hand easy to play instead of in cases.

Since I moved to Florida in 1993 I threw away all my humidifiers and never had a problem related to humidity with any of my guitars ever again. I do use quartersawn wood when I build.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members


My disposition is not well-suited for arguing with idiots.

Saigon has average 80% relative humidity year round.

If that's what you call climate control. The factory has climate control.

Which you obviously edited out, and for good reason. Were I to take you up, then you would be justified in that:thu:. I have no dog in the fight, I'm just relaying information that may help one make a thoughtful decision.

 

This has obviously touched a nerve with you, and I'm not sure why. My original post was to the fellow that stated his surprise that people are concerned with building conditions. My answer was not directed to any shop in particular, just some well known and practiced common sense regarding wood and guitar construction.

 

If there is anything worthwhile that you have to add, like the wood they use in Saigon is magic, and it would have to be for wood living in that sort of humidity, then built into a guitar, then shipped to a more arid climate, and not fall apart, I'll be more than happy to continue. But if it's just more "wagers" and brow-beating, feel free, I'm sure there's a few here that would enjoy that as well!:wave:

 

And, by the way, you've had that guitar 4 years and it may need a neck reset? From Taylor's site: "Symptoms of a Wet Guitar"

SYMPTOMS TO LOOK FOR:

1. High action. Strings that are unusually

high off the fretboard, making it difficult to

play.

2. Portion of fretboard on the body is raised

above the portion on the neck. Causes

fret buzzing in the high registers.

3. Unusually swollen top. See photo 2.

4. Unusual warp on the top, back or both at

the end-block.

See photos 1 and 2.

6. Improper neck angle. Sighting the neck to

the bridge, the frets will appear to hit

below the bridge

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

In my personal experience, it's LOW humidity conditions that are bad for guitars. There's a huge problem (for example) building a guitar in 40-50% humidity and shipping it to someplace that's 15-20%...But it's no big deal shipping a guitar built in 75% to 80% humidity to someplace 45-50%....And both guitars fare about the same shipped to someplace that's 15-20% (equally poor with the guitar made in high humidity behaving the same as the 50% guitar)


Aged properly seasoned tonewood acts like a sponge....but after a given value (say about 50%?) it doesn't "suck" additional moisture out of the air readily.


That would correspond more to Rambert's experience more.


 

I'm not trying to take you on with this, as you have much more experience that I in this area, but in Irving Sloane's book Classical Guitar Construction he says:

If possible, a guitar should be assembled in an atmosphere containing less moisture than the atmosphere in which it will finally consistently be. As a general rule, it is best to build guitars in a dry environment because swelling is less of a hazard than shrinkage.

 

So if I was out looking for a guitar, I'd most likely want it NOT to be made in a sauna-like atmosphere. He lives in Vietnam, the guitar is fine there, and would most likely be fine in any area with the same general conditions.

 

Of all the small builders I know of, all of them carry out their operations in as controlled an environment as they can. Some smaller guys keep their shop in de-humidifiers and humidifiers as the season changes, as it's just best for the build.

 

It's all I'm trying to say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I go into this gas station bathroom and lemme tell you... it was an emergency.

That mexican food from last night churned into something rotten and explosive in

my stomach. .....

 

That was a thing of beauty. Know you are appreciated. Are you the guy that wrote the screenplay for Trainspotting?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I'm not trying to take you on with this, as you have much more experience that I in this area, but in Irving Sloane's book Classical Guitar Construction he says:



So if I was out looking for a guitar, I'd most likely want it NOT to be made in a sauna-like atmosphere. He lives in Vietnam, the guitar is fine there, and would most likely be fine in any area with the same general conditions.


Of all the small builders I know of, all of them carry out their operations in as controlled an environment as they can. Some smaller guys keep their shop in de-humidifiers and humidifiers as the season changes, as it's just best for the build.


It's all I'm trying to say.

 

The offer is still valid. It should be a no-brainer for you.

After all, I'd have less of a chance of winning than I would have

buying a Lotto ticket.

 

A lot of repetition seems necessary with this gent.

I've already shipped several guitars back - to several parts

of the US.

 

No problems.

 

Which you obviously edited out, and for good reason. Were I to take you up, then you would be justified in that. I have no dog in the fight, I'm just relaying information that may help one make a thoughtful decision.

 

I don't alter quotes. I'm not sure what you mean here. But it's not important.

Take the bet or go pester someone else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

The offer is still valid. It should be a no-brainer for you.

After all, I'd have less of a chance of winning than I would have

buying a Lotto ticket.


A lot of repetition seems necessary with this gent.

I've already shipped several guitars back - to several parts

of the US.


No problems.




I don't alter quotes. I'm not sure what you mean here. But it's not important.

Take the bet or go pester someone else.

 

 

Repetition is necessary with those that fail to read the posts, as you apparently do. You missed an entire post up above with my reasons for not engaging in your "wager" and a few questions for you. Your sentence above was quoted before you removed them, but that's ok, I'm never offended by other people's insecurities, which you have made evident.

 

Now, will you answer those questions? I don't think you will, as your answers will no doubt reveal you as the shill you are starting to look like.

 

And it could have been just a nice conversation...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

1. Do you think it's a waste of time for companies like Martin, Taylor, Santa Cruz, or the larger Asian factories to invest in machinery to control the temperature and humidity?


I don't know. I don't offer opinions on stuff I know anything about.


2. Do you think they do it for a reason, and is the reason a good one, or just marketing?


That's the same question as #1. Same answer.


3. Will a piece of wood that has lived most of it's life in 80-90% humidity shrink when moved to 40-50% humidity? If so, how much?


I'm no expert. GC is. And he addressed that issue.


4. If "yes" to #3, would it affect any construction aspects?


For the umpteenth time, the guitars I've shipped to the US (for me

and my clients) are doing just fine.


 

Now please, take the bet or STFU & go pester someone else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Now please, take the bet or STFU & go pester someone else.

 

 

Dude, you're looking like a deer caught in the headlights. I'm sorry to tumble on your business adventure. Tell the guys to get some de-humidifiers, and for the last time, STFU about your idiotic bet, there is not a chance in hell anyone in their right mind, at this point in the conversation, would deal with you on that one.

 

Take a Xanax and go relax, you sound a bit uptight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Dude, you're looking like a deer caught in the headlights. I'm sorry to tumble on your business adventure. Tell the guys to get some de-humidifiers, and for the last time, STFU about your idiotic bet, there is not a chance in hell anyone in their right mind, at this point in the conversation, would deal with you on that one.


Take a Xanax and go relax, you sound a bit uptight.

 

My business doesn't involve selling guitars.

 

It does involve arguing with idiots sometimes.

 

Thanks for the thought.

 

The terms of the bet are as follows:

 

1. A neutral HCAG forumite in a dry place - specifies the guitar he or she wants.

(I recommended TAH, but it could be a soldier in Iraq/Afghanistan)

 

2. You & I pay to have it made. I inspect it before it goes out. Building cost should be about $300 - we split.

Shipping cost about the same. We split. You're looking at about $300 your share.

 

3. The forumite who gets the free guitar agrees to keep it humidified and take good care of it.

One year down the road, we see how that guitar is doing. If it hasn't cracked, warped or fallen apart,

you pay me $1000 (net profit for me of $700). If it has, I pay you $1000.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

My business doesn't involve selling guitars.


It does involve arguing with idiots sometimes.


Thanks for the thought.


The terms of the bet are as follows:


1. A neutral HCAG forumite in a dry place - specifies the guitar he or she wants.

(I recommended TAH, but it could be a soldier in Iraq/Afghanistan)


2. You & I pay to have it made. I inspect it before it goes out. Building cost should be about $300 - we split.

Shipping cost about the same. We split. You're looking at about $300 your share.


3. The forumite who gets the free guitar agrees to keep it humidified and take good care of it.

One year down the road, we see how that guitar is doing. If it hasn't cracked, warped or fallen apart,

you pay me $1000 (net profit for me of $700). If it has, I pay you $1000.

 

My god, you are insane. Good luck with the guitar business.

 

And if you need a neck reset soon, as you stated earlier, after 4 years of owning the guitar, I'm not sure if you saw the symptoms of a "wet guitar" I posted earlier, but that's one of them.

 

Mercy! A bet with you? On what is now obviously, from your severe defensiveness and terribly rude behavior, just throwing money down a hole... no. But as I said, good luck with the guitar business, hope you make a million, and I hope none of the guitars you sell to the world fall apart or need neck resets in 4 years.

 

One more repetition, take that Xanax, hell, even I can feel red in your face.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

My god, you are insane. Good luck with the guitar business.


And if you need a neck reset soon, as you stated earlier, after 4 years of owning the guitar, I'm not sure if you saw the symptoms of a "wet guitar" I posted earlier, but that's one of them.


Mercy! A bet with you? On what is now obviously, from your severe defensiveness and terribly rude behavior, just throwing money down a hole... no. But as I said, good luck with the guitar business, hope you make a million, and I hope none of the guitars you sell to the world fall apart or need neck resets in 4 years.


One more repetition, take that Xanax, hell, even
I
can feel red in your face.

 

It never ends with you does it?

 

The point of this thread (before you showed up), was to show

guitarists how instruments are made in a developing country.

 

It accomplished that. If you don't like it -- no problem. STFU & STFA.

 

The offer to bet is still out there for you though.

 

Let me know if you change your mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Well.....I certainly didn't mean to bring stir things up like this. My original comment was to say how good this thread was, and that I was impressed by what I could see and what I could hear of these guitars.

I don't see any evidence at all that this thread was started to sell guitars, except to provise a little publicity for the guitar maker ( I heartily approve!).

As I've said all along... I find it amusing that people want NOT just a beautiful guitar, NOT just hand-made to YOUR specifications, NOT just evidence that these guitars can sound GREAT, NOT just that it's a small family business producing good-quality guitars, and NOT just that all this comes for 300$......IN ADDITION people want first-world working conditions and humidity control....!

GIVE THE GUY A BREAK......! :facepalm:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...