Members richardmac Posted March 15, 2011 Members Share Posted March 15, 2011 Bob Baker (The dude who sells ebooks on how to market your music) says that we're a bunch of whiners and that the majority of people who tried to make it in music in the past where always hobbyists, and that there WAS no golden age of music and that we're better off today and don't know it. Read this article if you are so included, then come back here and let's hear your take. Here's my take. Bob is correct - it was extremely difficult to get a record contract in the old days, and getting one was no promise of anything at all. It was hard then and it's hard now and most of us will end up hobbyists. I agree with all of that. But the point he's missing is that the pot of money out there is smaller, and there are more people dipping their hands in and grabbing it. Because music was a more desirable product then compared to now, and the amount of people making music is so much greater now. So I would argue that the old system was bad and the new system is worse. I think Bob is a smart guy but it's his job to fluff artists and give them advice in exchange for money, which makes him a dream merchant of sorts. However, I have purchased some of Bob's stuff in the past and to be honest, I think it's a fair deal. His info is pretty good for the most part IMHO. But he's still a dream merchant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted March 15, 2011 Members Share Posted March 15, 2011 I wasn't INCLINED to read it , but it's not hard to imagine he's at least partially correct ( just like a stopped clock tells the correct time twice a day !!) Most folks are indeed reactive as opposed to proactive. Everyone daydreams of the fairy tale of getting "discovered" but most of the overnight successes have been grinding it out in obscurity for years before the big break. Of course , I'm wondering what the big break is now ?? Getting a million streams on internet radio and a check for $1.50 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 15, 2011 Members Share Posted March 15, 2011 What he appears to be ignoring is the vast array of possibilities to earn a living in the music biz that once existed between the extremes of hobbyist and signed recording artists making money that is no longer there. If he thinks the collapse of that aspect makes us better off than in the past, he's an idiot. The only reason for whining is that now music has become an either/or proposition, an all in or stay home, win or lose proposition. But it wasn't always so. From about 1910 until 1995 one could make a decent living in music by just performing, absent any big star opportunities or the desire to achieve them. Sadly, those days are gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members niceguy Posted March 15, 2011 Members Share Posted March 15, 2011 No, he's wrong. The old system was corrupt as all hell---but it was a system, an infrastructure. There is no more infrastructure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted March 15, 2011 Author Members Share Posted March 15, 2011 What he appears to be ignoring is the vast array of possibilities to earn a living in the music biz that once existed between the extremes of hobbyist and signed recording artists making money that is no longer there. If he thinks the collapse of that aspect makes us better off than in the past, he's an idiot. Yes - the musical "middle class" that we've talked about that has disappeared, and that has a negative impact on the whole big picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted March 15, 2011 Author Members Share Posted March 15, 2011 But, you know... does it? Let's call the middle class the minor leagues. So you have a band out there slugging away in the clubs and getting a following. IF they end up getting signed to a label and getting distributed, then everyone (sorta) gets to hear them. Classic example is Fallout Boy. They were packing the clubs, made their own CD, sold it, got signed, then their label basically had them re-record the album and re-release it, and they sold a crapload of copies. So you could say the minor league is a place where talent can be developed. Can it still be developed now in the same way? Maybe Fallout Boy, if they come out right now, doesn't develop the same following and even if they do they don't get signed. Who knows. There are fewer cover bands making a living but I don't see that as having much impact on original music. I think the biggest impact is that the record labels can't afford to develop acts, or let acts stick around for 4 albums if they're not selling well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 15, 2011 Members Share Posted March 15, 2011 But, you know... does it? Let's call the middle class the minor leagues. So you have a band out there slugging away in the clubs and getting a following. IF they end up getting signed to a label and getting distributed, then everyone (sorta) gets to hear them. Classic example is Fallout Boy. They were packing the clubs, made their own CD, sold it, got signed, then their label basically had them re-record the album and re-release it, and they sold a crapload of copies. So you could say the minor league is a place where talent can be developed. Can it still be developed now in the same way? Maybe Fallout Boy, if they come out right now, doesn't develop the same following and even if they do they don't get signed. Who knows. There are fewer cover bands making a living but I don't see that as having much impact on original music. I think the biggest impact is that the record labels can't afford to develop acts, or let acts stick around for 4 albums if they're not selling well. Well, the big difference is that in the 60s, 70s and 80s bands could play clubs 6 nights a week playing a combination of covers and originals. We used to bump into Robert Cray frequently playing the same clubs we were. Lots of bands went this route- from the Beatles and Stones to Van Halen and Guns n Roses. But bands that didn't make it still got 6 night gigs, still got paid decently and could live on what they earned playing. The whole separation of originals-only clubs from cover clubs (along with originals-only bands vs cover bands) is a fairly recent phenomenon, starting mostly in the 90s. Some big cities had punk clubs that were all original back in the 70s, and other cities had original showcase clubs, but most of the showcase bands played 6 night gigs doing covers when they weren't showcasing. I know a couple of guys even locally here who had 5-6 night a week sitdown gigs and house gigs, who bought houses and cars and insurance and raised families on what they made. One guy I know playing solo at a hotel/resort made $650 a week in the late 70s. That would be about $2000/week today. He had that gig for years. Another house band friends played for about 6 years in a house band, earning $400-500 a week each as time went by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Poker99 Posted March 15, 2011 Members Share Posted March 15, 2011 Bob Baker is full of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Johnny-Boy Posted March 15, 2011 Members Share Posted March 15, 2011 "Here's my take. Bob is correct - it was extremely difficult to get a record contract in the old days, and getting one was no promise of anything at all" - Richard Though it was easier for the songwriter to peddle his wares. 30 years ago I could submit songs to any the big boys and get a reply in the mail or phone call. The "song" ruled in those days. Today? Lots of luck. John:cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted March 15, 2011 Members Share Posted March 15, 2011 What he appears to be ignoring is the vast array of possibilities to earn a living in the music biz that once existed between the extremes of hobbyist and signed recording artists making money that is no longer there. If he thinks the collapse of that aspect makes us better off than in the past, he's an idiot. The only reason for whining is that now music has become an either/or proposition, an all in or stay home, win or lose proposition. But it wasn't always so. From about 1910 until 1995 one could make a decent living in music by just performing, absent any big star opportunities or the desire to achieve them. Sadly, those days are gone. Agreed..I was just going to post exactly this...Now i'm going to read his article but Just from the gist I've already gotten I know I disagree with significant portions of his thesis. I'll report back after I read it .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted March 15, 2011 Members Share Posted March 15, 2011 Ok..He's full of {censored} because he ignores a bunch of things..I will say this Richard, The ratio has always stayed the same..Even here in Nashville where the best songsmiths in the world are, It's still 90% ain't got it and 10% do..Same radio of talent I have seen everywhere in the world I have been. The problem is there are no filters anymore so all you have are millions and millions of untalented, unskilled, to marginally talented and skilled wannabee's out there flooding up cyberspace with their {censored}..It's almost impossible for anything good to get through.....along with all the other factors you would have to be crazy to want to get into this business looking for $$..Only those of us who are obsessed and passionate about it should be in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 15, 2011 Members Share Posted March 15, 2011 Only those of us who are obsessed and passionate about it should be in it. Yes. "Back in the day", as they say, there was a sharp dividing line between pros and hobbyists, because there were full time gigs that hobbyists couldn't do and hold a day job, and fulltimers couldn't do both either ( I tried it and lasted about 3 weeks- it almost killed me, and I was only 22!) Now, since full gtime gigs are gone, the line has been blurred to the point of being nearly non-existent between pro and hobbyist. Thus, many a hobbyist thinks he has a legitimate shot at being a pro when he has no idea what it involves or how to go about it. Seriously, how many threads have we seen here starting with something like "just finished my CD. Now what?" Multiply that by the tens of thousands every year and that's where we're at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted March 15, 2011 Members Share Posted March 15, 2011 Yes. "Back in the day", as they say, there was a sharp dividing line between pros and hobbyists, because there were full time gigs that hobbyists couldn't do and hold a day job, and fulltimers couldn't do both either ( I tried it and lasted about 3 weeks- it almost killed me, and I was only 22!) Now, since full gtime gigs are gone, the line has been blurred to the point of being nearly non-existent between pro and hobbyist. Thus, many a hobbyist thinks he has a legitimate shot at being a pro when he has no idea what it involves or how to go about it. Seriously, how many threads have we seen here starting with something like "just finished my CD. Now what?" Multiply that by the tens of thousands every year and that's where we're at. So true! I remember being on the road for 3 months straight all around FL, up the east coast to DC and back...Couldn't do that with a day gig and this was 88/89... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted March 16, 2011 Moderators Share Posted March 16, 2011 Yes. "Back in the day", as they say, there was a sharp dividing line between pros and hobbyists, because there were full time gigs that hobbyists couldn't do and hold a day job, and fulltimers couldn't do both either ( I tried it and lasted about 3 weeks- it almost killed me, and I was only 22!) Now, since full gtime gigs are gone, the line has been blurred to the point of being nearly non-existent between pro and hobbyist. Thus, many a hobbyist thinks he has a legitimate shot at being a pro when he has no idea what it involves or how to go about it. Seriously, how many threads have we seen here starting with something like "just finished my CD. Now what?" Multiply that by the tens of thousands every year and that's where we're at. This^ I lasted almost four months straight playing 5 nights and working fulltime days...plus a 75 minute commute to the night gigs. Teh demands of a life and family and career eventually outweighed the extra $ and 'fun' (It ceased to be 'fun' pretty quickly )...and ultimately, it was for the best. It pretty much killed the band...we spent our days 'off' rehearsing new material...we were in the meat grinder of playing a mix of classic rock and 'pop' hits...I earned the nickname 'human jukebox' from charting out five new songs or more a week...by the third month we were all ready to stop, but no one wanted to admit it... I look back at that time (the late 80s) and can't understand why those kinds of gigs vanished...but I see now the days of being able to live off gigging have been dwindling for over a decade...guys I know who were surviving soley playing, are now working day jobs...the shift is far more involved than the change in the labels, the change in distribution, the economy... I will say Baker is echoing much of what we have said here for years. He names a few names of some who have found a way to make money, but we all know these are the exceptions, not the rule. The real crux isn't just that there is no structure, but that things appear to be crumbling even more...and there is no stability or stabilizing factor on the horizon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dingoist Posted March 16, 2011 Members Share Posted March 16, 2011 I've been wondering about the change... I remember in the early 90s, if I wasn't gigging on a weekend, I'd be at a gig. It was the scene. I saw a single band poster up the other day on a light post, and thought "Cool. Do kids still do that?" A local bar opened up recently, started getting a good name for live blues, though some nights there were more musicians in the bar than audience, and eventually the bar closed (which sucked, since it was a 5 minute walk from my house where I could listen to good music without having to go far, and have a few drinks). It really seems to me, that live music has been on the decline (but then again, I live in a farm town without much of a music scene so that does alter one's perception.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 16, 2011 Members Share Posted March 16, 2011 I look back at that time (the late 80s) and can't understand why those kinds of gigs vanished... It really seems to me, that live music has been on the decline (but then again, I live in a farm town without much of a music scene so that does alter one's perception.) All for the reasons we've talked about here- far more entertainment options, tougher DUI laws, etc etc. When I was playing in the 80s, most town were lucky to have a 4 plex theater and get 20 channels on cable. No one had PCs and he best video games were in arcades and bars. Going out was a big deal then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cliftonb Posted March 16, 2011 Members Share Posted March 16, 2011 As I've said numerous times elsewhere, I don't have a problem with the current music landscape. Then again, I don't care about the money. I'm trying to make the best music known to man out it's for free or otherwise. The entire industry could come crashing down tomorrow - I'll still be here; slicing up various sections of soul and psyche and serving it with garnish on hand-crafted dinnerware cause it's what I does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ermghoti II Posted March 16, 2011 Members Share Posted March 16, 2011 As I've said numerous times elsewhere, I don't have a problem with the current music landscape. Then again, I don't care about the money. I'm trying to make the best music known to man out it's for free or otherwise. The entire industry could come crashing down tomorrow - I'll still be here; slicing up various sections of soul and psyche and serving it with garnish on hand-crafted dinnerware cause it's what I does. Then I guess there's no reason for you to be in the Music Business Forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 16, 2011 Members Share Posted March 16, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted March 16, 2011 Author Members Share Posted March 16, 2011 No, I like having CliftonB around! I think his posts are well thought out and I like hearing his perspective. The "Business" part of Music is very, very interesting to talk about. I wonder if things were the way they used to be if we'd have quite so much to talk about... I'm really torn, though, as to whether we are better off. In my opinion, the major (and minor) labels are not putting out the kind of quality that they've put out in the past. For your consideration, I offer up John Mayer. Put aside your bias because girls like him and he's a womanizer with a huge ego. Forget all that. In a world where the charts are dominated by Katy Perry, Lady Goo Goo, the Black Eyed Peas, and a whole slew of other crap, Mayer continues to sell tons of music and perform in front of large crowds, AND his music is borderline rock/jazz. Every other freaking song has a blues strat solo, for God's sake. Like him or hate him, I'm going to say two things about him - one, he's one of the best major label artists out there right now, and two... if he were doing his music in the 70's, he would have fit right in but he would NOT have been a huge success. I think that Mayer is successful now because he's doing music that would have been average quality in the 70's but is stellar compared to the rest of the crap being shoveled out there now. Of course, I am biased because I'm old. So there's that. So yeah, I think that in terms of artist output from the labels we are worse off. But in terms of indie artists, we're far better off. As an example of this, I present Brad Sucks. Definitely not for everyone's tastes... If you liked Talking Heads, you might like Brad Sucks. I have a few of his songs on my iPod and I really like them. And before the Internet there's no way I would have ever heard this guy's music. You could basically take CDBaby and toss out 90% of their catalog, because no one would have ever heard that music in the pre-Internet years. Now, some would argue that this is a good thing, but since I have sold music on CDBaby I'd say it's not a good thing. And once again we get back to the whole elitist attitude that we have... it's understandable. I've felt this way in meetings. I've been in technology meetings with people who don't know TCP/IP from PCP and they're debating how we should handle a certain problem. And they're totally wrong and I feel like saying "If you all would just shut up and listen to me, I already know how to fix this." It's like 18 idiots and 2 smart guys and everyone's talking. Shut up and listen to the smart guys. The music biz DOES have that feel to it now... if suddenly a great filter swept over the Internet and removed 90% of the music from it and just left the 10% that is good, those of us who made the 10% would jump for joy. Ah, but we ALL think we'd make the 10%. And if we didn't, we'd be pissed and say the filter was stupid and unfair. I believe that the hobbyists are here to stay and they're always going to be putting all of their junk out there, so we might as well get used to it. I also believe that mechanisms will eventually evolve and create a new filter system. And the reason I believe a new filter will develop is because the people that figure out how to do it will make a lot of money. I wish I could figure something out. I'd like a lot of money. Hey, if you want to watch an entertaining show, watch what's about to happen with the book publishing industry. The amateurs are about to storm the castle. Amazon and Apple's Book Store are about to be overwhelmed with a kajillion bad amateur authors. A year from now when you search Amazon's ebook section for a book on online marketing for music, you're going to get 50,000 results. LOL. Oh, one more thing. Pat was talking about why we don't go to clubs any more. It's not just clubs - kids aren't outside playing games and riding bikes. Why? Because you can ride your bike around the block, OR you can go on your computer/wii/whatever and play GOD and control a universe of cyber-people. It's pretty tough competition. It's one reason why I have a family membership to the Y. They've got a nice pool. I'm taking the kids swimming today - my kids love to swim. God, we can just talk about the same crap over and over again forever, can't we? Why am I still here? Why do I enjoy this discussion so much? Oh yeah... because no one else in my regular every day world cares AT ALL about any of this. Only the people here do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 16, 2011 Members Share Posted March 16, 2011 I think that Mayer is successful now because he's doing music that would have been average quality in the 70's but is stellar compared to the rest of the crap being shoveled out there now. Actually, I believe Mayer would haver been another guitar slinger/singer like Frampton or even SRV had he been around then. Pure speculation, of course, but he really is a very good guitar player in addition to being a singer, songwriter and charismatic performer. Ah, but we ALL think we'd make the 10%. I'm under no such illusion. The stuff i put out has a limited appeal audience anyway, but it woudn't even make the top 10% of that particular niche. Which is why I stopped making records and don't write much anymore. It is okay but just not great, or even that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted March 16, 2011 Author Members Share Posted March 16, 2011 I think you're selling yourself short - I think your music is good. I'm not a blues fan but I am a music fan. I think it's probably hard to stand out in blues because there are a lot of blues artists, and because the format has been done for so many years by so many people. As far as Mayer is concerned, you're right - he is a damn good player. I've seen him live twice and both shows he played his ass off. And he has a great sound and an awesome collection of strats. And I guess it is pretty silly to imagine how he would have done in the 70's, because he was heavily influenced by SRV, so he wouldn't have had that influence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Westorbust7 Posted March 16, 2011 Members Share Posted March 16, 2011 Well, I've gotten Bob Baker's emails for many a year now, and I think that in some ways he is right. There may be a lot of crap out there, and there is simply because of the ease of recording and distribution. I haven't been to a live show in 5 years, besides my own. Why? There isn't anybody around here I care to hear. I don't care for blues music, which is the predominant live experience around these parts. Besides one person, I've never known anyone that ever made a full time gig out of playing music, and she was in A&R back in the day for a label...times move on. Ask anyone who works in IT about how industry changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dan Acheron Posted March 16, 2011 Members Share Posted March 16, 2011 Whether the music business is better or worse these days can definitely be debated. With the current state there is definitely differences in the music business than those of the past. The internet makes it easy for peoples music to be heard and get in contact with others. There are some disadvantages to this but I believe if you use the internet as effectively as possible and to your advantage, you can have good things happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 16, 2011 Members Share Posted March 16, 2011 I believe if you use the internet as effectively as possible and to your advantage, you can have good things happen. Such as? Examples, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.