Bob Baker thinks we're a bunch of whiners. Are we?

[Westorbust7]

 

There are some disadvantages to this but I believe if you use the internet as effectively as possible and to your advantage, you can have good things happen.

 

 

I think it depends on what "good" means. Exposure on the internet? Sure, with the right video, but then you get into that area that musicians complain about nowadays in that you have to be a cinematographer/3D artist/Web guru/social media wizard and then still write, record and perform actual music. Not impossible, but it sure takes up a lot of time one used to spend writing music. People want to be totally entertained, live is not enough, which is something I've been working on with a few people around here.

 

It doesn't help the the global economy went belly up and doesn't want to recover. oh well.

[mmmiddle]

But, you know... does it? Let's call the middle class the minor leagues. So you have a band out there slugging away in the clubs and getting a following. IF they end up getting signed to a label and getting distributed, then everyone (sorta) gets to hear them. Classic example is Fallout Boy. They were packing the clubs, made their own CD, sold it, got signed, then their label basically had them re-record the album and re-release it, and they sold a crapload of copies. So you could say the minor league is a place where talent can be developed. Can it still be developed now in the same way? Maybe Fallout Boy, if they come out right now, doesn't develop the same following and even if they do they don't get signed. Who knows. There are fewer cover bands making a living but I don't see that as having much impact on original music. I think the biggest impact is that the record labels can't afford to develop acts, or let acts stick around for 4 albums if they're not selling well.

 

 

That is somewhat inaccurate. Fall Out Boy's self-recorded album was Fall Out Boy's Evening Out With Your Girlfriend and it only has 1 songs on it that appeared on the breakout album Take This To Your Grave. Also slugging it out on their own? Not sure. They spent a lot of time in other bands being unknown to the general public, but some of the band members were signed to Eulogy and Let It Burn in a different band previously so they were hardly ever doing it all on their own without a record label.

[daddymack]

- kids aren't outside playing games and riding bikes. Why? Because you can ride your bike around the block, OR you can go on your computer/wii/whatever and play GOD and control a universe of cyber-people. It's pretty tough competition. It's one reason why I have a family membership to the Y. They've got a nice pool. I'm taking the kids swimming today - my kids love to swim.

you mean they haven't come out with Wii Swimming yet?

[Dan Acheron]

 

Such as? Examples, please.

 

I really enjoy the topic of marketing. There have been many good points made up to this point. I agree with westorbust7 that it will take a lot of work.

 

Bluestrat, I do not feel marketers have taken full advantage of the internet yet. Mass marketing is common and it is nearly everywhere you go. We are so use to it, it does not really phase us anymore. I think marketing needs to be more creative in its approach. In music, an important aspect is to have loyal fan support. To get this loyal support I believe you need more than just good music. I think you need to make your fans feel important and show you appreciate them by giving back to them. For example, I think most bands can have better newsletters. Instead of just saying what you are going to be doing in the next few weeks, give them something useful. This is where you got to get creative on what to give them that will be useful. Some examples would be backing tracks, articles, and even some music. I am sure there are better ideas out there but cant really think of any right now. If you can make just your newsletters to the point where your fans are excited to receive them, it will make the fans feel a personal connection to you. When they develop this personal connection I believe it will make it much easier to sell your products.

 

These are just my opinions. Like I said I really enjoy marketing and learning about it. There is so much more that can be done with marketing if you are creative with it. There have been some great points up to this point and I would really like to hear some more!

[Cliftonb]

 

Then I guess there's no reason for you to be in the Music Business Forum.

 

 

Say it ain't so! If Reading Comprehension was a person he'd don a comically oversized foam top hat and lab goggles, change his name to "Trey", and hover around the Gulf Coast area, nomad-like, doing odd jobs in the food service sector to escape the travesty that's just been done in his name.

 

I said that i didn't care about the money - meaning that my primary motivation for creating music is not monetary compensation. This doesn't mean that I would turn down money offered for something I've made (which happens pretty often). This is evidenced by me saying "free or otherwise" in the very next sentence.

 

To be quite frank, the vast majority musicians will never be good enough to make a full career of music. Work on being face-meltingly awesome instead of rich or famous, I say. If it happens it happens. If it doesn't it doesn't.

[richardmac]

 

That is somewhat inaccurate. Fall Out Boy's self-recorded album was Fall Out Boy's Evening Out With Your Girlfriend and it only has 1 songs on it that appeared on the breakout album Take This To Your Grave. Also slugging it out on their own? Not sure. They spent a lot of time in other bands being unknown to the general public, but some of the band members were signed to Eulogy and Let It Burn in a different band previously so they were hardly ever doing it all on their own without a record label.

 

 

Huh. Wikipedia says you're right. Strange because I could have sworn I heard a radio interview with the band where the label made them go in and rerecord their CD. Obviously I must be thinking of a different band, not Fall Out Boy.

 

Um, did you agree or disagree with my point?

[ermghoti II]

 

Say it ain't so! If Reading Comprehension was a person he'd don a comically oversized foam top hat and lab goggles, change his name to "Trey", and hover around the Gulf Coast area, nomad-like, doing odd jobs in the food service sector to escape the travesty that's just been done in his name. I said that i didn't care about the money - meaning that my primary motivation for creating music is not monetary compensation. This doesn't mean that I would turn down money offered for something I've made (which happens pretty often). This is evidenced by me saying "free or otherwise " in the very next sentence.

 

 

Were you crying when you wrote this?

[daddymack]

[BlueStrat]

 

I really enjoy the topic of marketing. There have been many good points made up to this point. I agree with westorbust7 that it will take a lot of work. Bluestrat, I do not feel marketers have taken full advantage of the internet yet. Mass marketing is common and it is nearly everywhere you go. We are so use to it, it does not really phase us anymore. I think marketing needs to be more creative in its approach. In music, an important aspect is to have loyal fan support. To get this loyal support I believe you need more than just good music. I think you need to make your fans feel important and show you appreciate them by giving back to them. For example, I think most bands can have better newsletters. Instead of just saying what you are going to be doing in the next few weeks, give them something useful. This is where you got to get creative on what to give them that will be useful. Some examples would be backing tracks, articles, and even some music. I am sure there are better ideas out there but cant really think of any right now. If you can make just your newsletters to the point where your fans are excited to receive them, it will make the fans feel a personal connection to you. When they develop this personal connection I believe it will make it much easier to sell your products. These are just my opinions. Like I said I really enjoy marketing and learning about it. There is so much more that can be done with marketing if you are creative with it. There have been some great points up to this point and I would really like to hear some more!

 

 

 

Well, I'm not trying to be challenging or combative. I've just been hearing this for ten years now- the internet is the wave of the future for promoting and selling music. And usually, when I ask for specific examples, I get the same ones- Lili Allen, Corey Smith, and.......well, that's about it, both examples that are now several years old. You'd think somebody would have figured it out by now. It's not like the motivation to do so isn't there. And my contention is the same as it's always been- the internet doesn't have unlimited potential because it's still a medium that the consumer has to go to. It doesn't go to the consumer, like TV, radio, billboards, etc. And the average DIY guy doesn't have access to those mediums. Hence, the relatively stagnant state of the music biz in the unsigned artist arena.

[Cliftonb]

 

Were you crying when you wrote this?

 

 

Nah, you're projecting. I'm surprised you're able to type anything coherent without your fingers slipping considering the fresh layer of tears on your keyboard. Your original message was probably "Werwjigjser YOujPIjmigj Croysiing whengi Yojmpo4 wrocm thijisds?"

 

But on a serious note - no, i wasn't crying. But my dog was. He wails a bitter wail and mutters dark oaths when people can't add anything of value to conversations.

[3shiftgtr]

Well sure the guy is right about a few things, because when the part timer has the same access to quality recording and production as the full timer, you get more opportunity. And where there is opportunity, someone will dangle it in front of you and ask you why you are not taking advantage of it. Like an Amway salesperson......

....not there is anything wrong with being an Amway salesperson.

It is just infuriating when someone talks about music marketing without a caveat stating "It doesn't matter a damn bit about what I or anyone else says about the music business because there is no secret formula. Quality is not an issue, and neither is effective marketing. No one really knows what makes something popular.":thu:

[richardmac]

ermghoti II vs. CliftonB in the battle of the sophomoric comebacks. I mean, really, it has all the feel of high school. And all the intelligence. Why don't you boys put your wit into making fun of the major labels like the rest of us?

 

You're right, 3dhiftgtr, but Dream Merchants can't do that, any more than the salesman at Sam Ash can tell a kid "I can sell you this PRS and Marshall half stack because your daddy is loaded, but you're still going to suck."

 

Or like the folks at CDBaby saying "The odds are good that you won't ever sell more than 10 copies of your CD." They're not going to tell you that. And the only stats they will ever, EVER show anyone are the positive ones. I'd like to know what percentage of CDBaby artists sell more than, say, 50 copies of a single CD. I bet the majority of people on CDBaby sell less than 50. Disclaimer - I am a satisfied CDBaby customer, I've done three CD's through them and will definitely use them for my fourth. I highly recommend them - I don't want this to come across as slamming them. The fact is that people in the music biz aren't going to make any money if they actually tell it like it is.

 

Bob Baker even has a little club where you pay him X dollars per month in exchange for him giving you personal advice. I personally have always subscribed to the idea that CliftonB stated previously, which is put all of your effort into making music that is fantastic. IF you can come up with something fantastic, THEN see about marketing it. But I have purchased some of his stuff in the past for not a lot of money and I did get some good ideas from him.

[Cliftonb]

I'm the mature one - he started it!

 

Anyway truce:

 

 

 

So yeah - on topic, major labels are as evil as robots disguised as bears, disguised as swarms of bees with laser guns. The industry is an old jump suit that says....where was I going with this?

[3shiftgtr]

You're right, 3dhiftgtr, but Dream Merchants can't do that, any more than the salesman at Sam Ash can tell a kid "I can sell you this PRS and Marshall half stack because your daddy is loaded, but you're still going to suck."

 

 

But isn't there an implied consent between the sales guy and the buyer that the guitar doesn't make you play well? I mean some people think that the PRS and the Boogie will make them sound better, but everybody knows it isn't the magic button. But the dreampushers imply (many actually state) that there is a magic button to selling product. And they will show you where the button is, how to push it, and actually give you the finger to do it with. The implied consent feels gone with them....

 

"You DO want to sell more CD's, don't you?"

 

But I guess if you got some good info and tips and feel like you got a good deal, then I guess that sorta negates the problem with the approach.....

[sventvkg]

Just make Great Music than let's talk.....That should shut this forum up for a while!

[richardmac]

ARGH! I've been slaving over a song for the past two hours and it's being a total bitch to write. I came in here for a diversion! Now you've ruined my plans. Great. Just Great.

[Cliftonb]

I guess certain times favor certain kinds of people. The current music industry is in shambles, so they tell me. There's people who see opportunity where others see chaos. And it may be so, that the superstructure that's been build around music has suffered a great hit and is in disarray. Is the essence of what the industry was founded on dead? Nah, that dies with the last human. I fully believe that some interesting and inspiring things will arise from the current state of things. It almost feels familiar in a way...

[3shiftgtr]

ARGH! I've been slaving over a song for the past two hours and it's being a total bitch to write. I came in here for a diversion! Now you've ruined my plans. Great. Just Great.

 

 

LOL!

 

Hey, here's an idea. Put a b5 and a b9 in every chord in the song, then change the lyrics to something about your family.....

 

....fx'd!!!!!

[flatfinger]

What we really need is another pop song that uses the "axis of awesome" chord progression..........Then we sell it to baby gaga..... then; invest all the proceeds in nuclear power futures......



Freaking genius , I'm sure you all will agree!!!!!!

[flatfinger]

No, I like having CliftonB around! I think his posts are well thought out and I like hearing his perspective. The "Business" part of Music is very, very interesting to talk about. I wonder if things were the way they used to be if we'd have quite so much to talk about... I'm really torn, though, as to whether we are better off. In my opinion, the major (and minor) labels are not putting out the kind of quality that they've put out in the past. For your consideration, I offer up John Mayer. Put aside your bias because girls like him and he's a womanizer with a huge ego. Forget all that. In a world where the charts are dominated by Katy Perry, Lady Goo Goo, the Black Eyed Peas, and a whole slew of other crap, Mayer continues to sell tons of music and perform in front of large crowds, AND his music is borderline rock/jazz. Every other freaking song has a blues strat solo, for God's sake. Like him or hate him, I'm going to say two things about him - one, he's one of the best major label artists out there right now, and two... if he were doing his music in the 70's, he would have fit right in but he would NOT have been a huge success. I think that Mayer is successful now because he's doing music that would have been average quality in the 70's but is stellar compared to the rest of the crap being shoveled out there now. Of course, I am biased because I'm old. So there's that. So yeah, I think that in terms of artist output from the labels we are worse off. But in terms of indie artists, we're far better off. As an example of this, I present Brad Sucks. Definitely not for everyone's tastes... If you liked Talking Heads, you might like Brad Sucks. I have a few of his songs on my iPod and I really like them. And before the Internet there's no way I would have ever heard this guy's music. You could basically take CDBaby and toss out 90% of their catalog, because no one would have ever heard that music in the pre-Internet years. Now, some would argue that this is a good thing, but since I have sold music on CDBaby I'd say it's not a good thing. And once again we get back to the whole elitist attitude that we have... it's understandable. I've felt this way in meetings. I've been in technology meetings with people who don't know TCP/IP from PCP and they're debating how we should handle a certain problem. And they're totally wrong and I feel like saying "If you all would just shut up and listen to me, I already know how to fix this." It's like 18 idiots and 2 smart guys and everyone's talking. Shut up and listen to the smart guys. The music biz DOES have that feel to it now... if suddenly a great filter swept over the Internet and removed 90% of the music from it and just left the 10% that is good, those of us who made the 10% would jump for joy. Ah, but we ALL think we'd make the 10%. And if we didn't, we'd be pissed and say the filter was stupid and unfair. I believe that the hobbyists are here to stay and they're always going to be putting all of their junk out there, so we might as well get used to it. I also believe that mechanisms will eventually evolve and create a new filter system. And the reason I believe a new filter will develop is because the people that figure out how to do it will make a lot of money. I wish I could figure something out. I'd like a lot of money. Hey, if you want to watch an entertaining show, watch what's about to happen with the book publishing industry. The amateurs are about to storm the castle. Amazon and Apple's Book Store are about to be overwhelmed with a kajillion bad amateur authors. A year from now when you search Amazon's ebook section for a book on online marketing for music, you're going to get 50,000 results. LOL. Oh, one more thing. Pat was talking about why we don't go to clubs any more. It's not just clubs - kids aren't outside playing games and riding bikes. Why? Because you can ride your bike around the block, OR you can go on your computer/wii/whatever and play GOD and control a universe of cyber-people. It's pretty tough competition. It's one reason why I have a family membership to the Y. They've got a nice pool. I'm taking the kids swimming today - my kids love to swim. God, we can just talk about the same crap over and over again forever, can't we? Why am I still here? Why do I enjoy this discussion so much? Oh yeah... because no one else in my regular every day world cares AT ALL about any of this. Only the people here do.

 

 

 

 

You're still here because were glad you are !! Nice summation counselor. It's good that we have this forum so that we can decide who's to blame for wrecking our music-god fantasies. Cause blame is better to give than receive!!

[mikedavid00]

Such as? Examples, please.

 

 

There's lot of examples. Justin Beiber, Soulja Boy.. the A&R are looking on the internet now. But all aspiring mucisians are on Youtube now and Twitter.

 

What I keep trying to say is that the big labels have a monopoly and control rotation. As long as they have this, they will always have the upper hand.

 

You can have 100,000 twitter followers all over the world, you try to tour and they won't be showing up and you won't have attendance. It's the major labels that will really push you to that next level, put you on a tour with other acts, and really get you to where you need to be.

 

This has NOT changed. The big labels are still in control through the aiding and embedding of the gov't and as long as they have a monopoly, things won't change. Anyone who is on hype on Youtube will just get signed. Doing it alone though? Good luck.

[FSMSR]

I think, however unfortunate it may be, that the future of major label music will be focused on the psychology of music and enjoyment. Much like advertising has grown to incorporate psychology and subliminal influence, music has the potential to be focused on reaching a mass audience as opposed to expressing the artistic vision of the creator. As evidence I put forth the chants and devotional music that plays a part in nearly every church service; without meaning offence to anyone who may work in this field, may I say that this music serves the purpose other than simply being a pure artistic expression. Further still in those religious services in which the congregation sings with the choir the music performs a cathartic and unifying duty that is intended to both share a message of whatever faith it may be specific too in addition to the social function that engaging in the release of singing as a community provides, associating the base satisfaction that is derived from participating in creating a pleasing organization of sounds.

In this manner music aimed at profit might move away from the entertainment field altogether, this includes peripheral fields such as teaching others how to perform as entertainers, and toward things based on the psychological responses we have to organized sound. For example, binaural beats that are used for meditation take advantage of a physiological response to sound to calm the listener. I really don't find it to be too much of a stretch to see music being commissioned to; put the listener in the most receptive mode for an advertising message, create specific atmospheres in rooms within model homes, in child care facilities to promote calmness or focus, or even some type of weaponization. I do realize that in some way each of these examples has been explored to an extent but the focus on profiting off of music has traditionally been to market towards an entertainment budget that is highly unpredictable from week to week depending on the individuals financial planning skills. If it possible, however, to market to a need rather than a want by providing a powerful means of interaction with listeners/consumers the potential exists for music the be a dependable industry without needing to be a "super star".

Just a thought, I may be way off the mark or maybe it's a phase I missed thats long been exhausted, but provided that you can accept the leap of logic that musicians would be the most qualified to make those types of manipulations of sound, then I don't think it's too far fetched. I almost imagine an insidious relative of soundtrack work that is aimed at taking advantage of psychological and physiological responses rather than evoking an emotion, though that in itself could be an application if not an essential example of the type of response possible in and of itself.

A quick further illustration, Brian Eno's work with microsoft in developing the start up noise for windows can be paralleled with the way in which Disney provided a list of adjectives which the illustrators for the original Mickey Mouse were required to reflect within their character.

Not sure if anyone is going to actually read all of that but if so interested to hear what you think

[Poker99]

Interesting... And scary.

[BlueStrat]

There's lot of examples. Justin Beiber, Soulja Boy.. the A&R are looking on the internet now.

 

Nice try, but that's not what we're talking about. You keep trying to pull every topic around to getting signed by a major label. Maybe when your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, but I was addressing the idea that one can 'make it' on DIY internet marketing alone. I happen to agree with you, you pretty much can't do it without the clout of a major label, which is my point. But the two examples you gave are not people who gained success without a label and it's marketing arm, which was the the examples I was asking for. They may have gotten a label's attention, but that isn't the same as being Corey Smith or Lily Allen.

 

Here's one for you: a drummer I'm playing with played with these guys back in the 90s as a founding member:

 

http://www.blackhappy.net/

 

They started out as an 8 piece Christian band and garnered a huge following. They sold over 50,000 CDs on their own in just a few years. Some labels looked that them and declined to sign them because they reasoned that they sold so many CDs without a label that they wouldn't want to take direction and would be too reluctant to change anything.

 

They finally did sign, with Capricorn Records, after my drummer friend had left the band. The first thing the label did was fire the horn section, demand they change the band name (they settled on Shoveljerk, http://www.myspace.com/shoveljerk123 Read the bio, it makes it sound like the guys in the band made the decision) and change their entire sound, resulting in a band that made one label album, didn't sell and got dropped. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard this same story, or ones like it, guys getting their publishing stripped from them and rolled over into the "pay-off-the-record-company-debt- first" column, guys having finished records "tweaked'' by the label after the band is long gone from the studio, guys having records shelved because the label decided to sell one of the band's songs to another artist they wanted to promote, disputes over ownership of masters, and so on. And people wonder why musicians are so wary of labels and hold them in contempt.

 

Believe it or not, an awful lot of musicians don't find the label system to be the be all and end all of the music business, and would rather put pins in their eyes than sign a major label record deal.

[richardmac]

Good Lord, FSMSR. Interesting reading, yes. And yes there will always be those who use music in very, very calculated ways. Every Pixar movie contains the most calculated music you will ever hear, along with calculated plot points, calculated character flaws, etc. The whole thing is designed to illicit different responses. It does work, though. They're expert at it. They can rip your heart out and show it to you and then stuff it back in. We're sort of talking about this in a songwriting thread. Is it "bad" when you take a super calculated approach to melody as opposed to improvising it? This is all philosophy though and over-analyzing music can make it unappealing. I dunno.

 

BlueStrat, that was a great story and cautionary tale.