Members Weathered Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Actually, the best argument I have heard on the nitro vs. poly finish was from a boutique builder (maybe D.T. McNaught?) who said that in an electric guitar, the finish TYPE does not adversely affect the tone, while THICKNESS does. On an acoustic instrument, where the tone only comes from the vibration of the body, then having a thin nitro finish is a good thing. With an electric guitar, the pickups transfer the magnetic energy created by the vibration of the stings into an amplifier. Yes, other things matter, but when it gets down to it, a thin finish is a good thing, whether it's nitro or poly. Having owned an played guitars finished in both, I've not noticed a difference in tone between nitro and poly on similar guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cloudnine Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 I dont think there is a difference as long as it's not super-thick in either case. But in the case of, say, Fender MIM strats (I played like 20 of them the other day), the finish is so goddamn thick I dont know how wood can vibrate under all of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RaVenCAD Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by Dr. Tweedbucket Alot of people do like the aging effect that nitro gives a guitar..... and I think it does add to the mojo, along with worn hardware, aged wood ect.... Personally, I am like you and would rather have a pristine playing piece. But that aging doesn't mean anything once the guitar is recorded. That's a strictly visual thing. Sure, it makes for a comfortable, "broken in" feel, but it doesn't change the tone a significant amount. To my ears, a nitro finished guitar is a bit brighter than a poly finish. That's not hard to overcome with just a hint more treble on the eq pedal. I'm not discounting that there is a difference, there really is. But I don't see it being a deciding factor in a purchase, nor being something I'd pay extra for. Especially considering the fact that AJ, whom I do view as a wood/finishing expert, says that nitro finishes are cheap and easy to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ajcoholic Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by Weathered Actually, the best argument I have heard on the nitro vs. poly finish was from a boutique builder (maybe D.T. McNaught?) who said that in an electric guitar, the finish TYPE does not adversely affect the tone, while THICKNESS does. On an acoustic instrument, where the tone only comes from the vibration of the body, then having a thin nitro finish is a good thing. With an electric guitar, the pickups transfer the magnetic energy created by the vibration of the stings into an amplifier. Yes, other things matter, but when it gets down to it, a thin finish is a good thing, whether it's nitro or poly. Having owned an played guitars finished in both, I've not noticed a difference in tone between nitro and poly on similar guitars. You are making WAY too much sense to post in this "argument"... (but I agree with you.... )AJC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dr. Tweedbucket Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by Weathered Actually, the best argument I have heard on the nitro vs. poly finish was from a boutique builder (maybe D.T. McNaught?) who said that in an electric guitar, the finish TYPE does not adversely affect the tone, while THICKNESS does. On an acoustic instrument, where the tone only comes from the vibration of the body, then having a thin nitro finish is a good thing. With an electric guitar, the pickups transfer the magnetic energy created by the vibration of the stings into an amplifier. Yes, other things matter, but when it gets down to it, a thin finish is a good thing, whether it's nitro or poly. Having owned an played guitars finished in both, I've not noticed a difference in tone between nitro and poly on similar guitars. Electrics have acoustic tone and sustain as well. Yeah, it is not as critical as an acoustic guitar, but still important IMO.The other thing is as the guitar ages, lacquer breaths better and lets the wood season where as it is harder for that to happen if sealed with an epoxy type paint..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ajcoholic Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by RaVenCAD But that aging doesn't mean anything once the guitar is recorded. That's a strictly visual thing. Sure, it makes for a comfortable, "broken in" feel, but it doesn't change the tone a significant amount. To my ears, a nitro finished guitar is a bit brighter than a poly finish. That's not hard to overcome with just a hint more treble on the eq pedal. I'm not discounting that there is a difference, there really is. But I don't see it being a deciding factor in a purchase, nor being something I'd pay extra for. Especially considering the fact that AJ, whom I do view as a wood/finishing expert, says that nitro finishes are cheap and easy to do. Just to clarify - I stated the finish itself is cheaper (by a lot) and the application takes (IMO having worked with numerous finishes) less skill. The added cost comes from the prepwork and dry time/storage time What irks me is when I read that "nitro" itself is expensive... when it is one of the least expensive finishes out ther (and in the family of lacquers the least expensive). That being said, the stuff I use, a catalysed lacquer (or stuff like conversion varnishes) can indeed be applied as thin, require the same amount of prepwork, but the savings come in the decreased working time (they dry way faster) and the increased durability. I gotta' run back to work now. Lunchtime is over and this arguement is giving me a headache.... AJC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RaVenCAD Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Wood doesn't breathe. It is a dead, lifeless piece of matter. The only thing that can happen to it is the moisture content can fluxuate. In theory, a totally sealed poly finish should make the piece of wood maintain the exact state of being it had the day the finish went on. "Breathing" would only lead to finish cracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members joesl8 Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by RaVenCAD The poly vs. nitro argument is about as idiotic as EVH's idea that boiling strings improves their tone. I like to boil my spagetti to improve its flavor.I don't know about the whole tonal thing, I'd personally prefer a nitro finish because I like my guitar to age gracefully. But a nitro strat will always fetch more dough, eveytime I sold one that's the first thing they'd ask about. Hendix liked to use some hair pomade, I beilieve, to message and thread his stings. I'm guessing maybe there is drop more tone in all these things, but I doubt us mortals will ever hear it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ToasterOven Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by Dr. Tweedbucket Electrics have acoustic tone and sustain as well. Yeah, it is not as critical as an acoustic guitar, but still important IMO. The other thing is as the guitar ages, lacquer breaths better and lets the wood season where as it is harder for that to happen if sealed with an epoxy type paint..... Guitar makers love people like you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members walfordr Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by ToasterOven Guitar makers love people like you. Well seasoned trolls you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members joesl8 Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by ToasterOven Guitar makers love people like you. Well aren't violins know for having a finish that breathes, and isn't it true that they sound better as the wood ages due to these finishes? Since a violin and guitar are similar, it would seem that they know something about wood resonance, tone, sustain? Hey, has anyone seen "The Red Violin"?? A human blood nitro finished guitar would sound fricken awesome!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RaVenCAD Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by joesl8 Well aren't violins know for having a finish that breathes, and isn't it true that they sound better as the wood ages due to these finishes? Since a violin and guitar are similar, it would seem that they know something about wood resonance, tone, sustain? Hey, has anyone seen "The Red Violin"?? A human blood nitro finished guitar would sound fricken awesome!! Violins are indeed a lot like acoustic guitars. No one is saying the finish on an acoustic doesn't greatly impact the tone. But we are talking about electrics here, not acoustics. Why would human blood in the paint make it sound "fricken awesome"? If anything, it would clog the pores of the wood and it couldn't breathe properly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ToasterOven Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by joesl8 Well aren't violins know for having a finish that breathes, and isn't it true that they sound better as the wood ages due to these finishes? Since a violin and guitar are similar, it would seem that they know something about wood resonance, tone, sustain? Hey, has anyone seen "The Red Violin"?? A human blood nitro finished guitar would sound fricken awesome!! Hmmm. You caught me. On an acoustic, I would probably prefer a laquer to a poly, since resonance is obviously much more important. Then again, most Gretsches sound nice and resonant to me, and none of them are laquered.Eh, I can see wood aging making a difference on a piece of wood that's 3/16" thick, but a 2 1/2" slab of mahogany or ash? Just don't know how long it would take a big chunk like that to age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dr. Tweedbucket Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by RaVenCAD Violins are indeed a lot like acoustic guitars. No one is saying the finish on an acoustic doesn't greatly impact the tone. But we are talking about electrics here, not acoustics. Why would human blood in the paint make it sound "fricken awesome"? If anything, it would clog the pores of the wood and it couldn't breathe properly... The white blood cells tend to attack the wood and it in a way 'opens up' the sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dr. Tweedbucket Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by ToasterOven Guitar makers love people like you. yeah, well how many guitar have you stripped and refinished ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RaVenCAD Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by ToasterOven Eh, I can see wood aging making a difference on a piece of wood that's 3/16" thick, but a 2 1/2" slab of mahogany or ash? Just don't know how long it would take a big chunk like that to age. Based on the recent trend in the price of 50's Les Pauls, I'd say about 50 years! Obviously something happened to them all to make their prices double in a year's time.. Tweed, lol! You ain't right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oggy Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by batotman 66 guitars later and the only guitar I've had an issue with stickiness was a Gibson Les Paul Standard LE! So, one guitar with a sticky finish made you hate nitro forever? My experience has been that if there is any stickiness, it gives way to a silky smooth feel after a couple years that feels much better than poly. As far as tone i'm not sure about the whole nirto vs. poly debate. I do however, think that thinner finnishes sound better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members joesl8 Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by Dr. Tweedbucket The white blood cells tend to attack the wood and it in a way 'opens up' the sound. Actually the white blood cells would fight off bad tone and keep your guitar's immune system healthy, preventing general suckage! If resonance is important to acoustics, why not electric? Don't you guys ever play a guitar unplugged? Isn't resonance important then? If so, I think everything would come into play: wood, finish, hardware, "mojo magic", fairy dust, white and red blood cells, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hunter6 Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by Dr. Tweedbucket yeah, well how many guitar have you stripped and refinished ? Do you refin them with human blood nitro only? :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dr. Tweedbucket Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by joesl8 Actually the white blood cells would fight off bad tone and keep your guitar's immune system healthy, preventing general suckage! If resonance is important to acoustics, why not electric? Don't you guys ever play a guitar unplugged? Isn't resonance important then? If so, I think everything would come into play: wood, finish, hardware, "mojo magic", fairy dust, white and red blood cells, etc. Well, boys .... there ya go .......... :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dr. Tweedbucket Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by Hunter6 Do you refin them with human blood nitro only? :rolleyes: nah, I strip all that nasty thick plasticy paint off and then am basically too lazy to do anything else with it ..... so my wife throws them in the trash ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members joesl8 Posted May 15, 2006 Members Share Posted May 15, 2006 Originally posted by Hunter6 Do you refin them with human blood nitro only? :rolleyes: Don't forget that to have to apply the human blood nitro with a brush made from extra long virgin pubic hair!!! Anything else would be uncivilized Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hunter6 Posted May 16, 2006 Members Share Posted May 16, 2006 Originally posted by joesl8 Don't forget that to have to apply the human blood nitro with a brush made from extra long virgin pubic hair!!! Anything else would be uncivilized And you can't use a normal heat lamp, you have to use a special bulb, made of material found only on the Sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flames Posted May 16, 2006 Members Share Posted May 16, 2006 The old "argument" over finishes...what a wonderful thing! Sure nitro allows the wood to breath after 10 years, once it checks and cracks!....oh yeah and remember acoustics are not finished on the underside of the plates....so the only thing that effects the top vibrations is the thickness of the finish....even on a solid body the only thing that effects the tone is the finish thickness mesured after many months of curing...our finishes are poly, and we have done countless test on nitro vs. poly vs. an oil finish.....the out come is always the same.....we shoot our finish so it ends up being aroung .009 thick after 6 months...thats thin! At that time table the finish has completely "flashed" off and the solids have cured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members joesl8 Posted May 16, 2006 Members Share Posted May 16, 2006 Well that just {censored}en great...how the {censored} am I supposed to check the {censored}en finish on a {censored}en guitar!? Now I'm going to have to go {censored}en CSI on the mother{censored}er and dig a piece fo {censored}en paint off the {censored}en guitar and take it to the {censored}en crimelab to {censored}en analyze the {censored}en {censored}!!!!?!??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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