Caliber of musicians today

[UstadKhanAli]

Just so you know, I truly do not care whether this thread is hijacked! Also, I think all the other discussions are quite interesting, so keep 'em going!!!

[The Pro]

I agree with what Lee Knight said overall, and especially his observation of groups like Nickle Creek being brief points of light in an otherwise dark valley of musicianship. I heard Nickle Creek on Austin City Limits, which I watch specifically to hear younger acts I might not hear otherwise, and there are times when the musicianship on that show is very high but it seems overall that it is declining.

I would be in the over-45 group myself, and the thing that strikes me is that bands I used to play with in the 70's used to try very hard to play music... I specifically remember all-day/all-night practice marathons where we wrestled with songs trying to pick apart the details by ear and duplicate them when we played in clubs. Today's bands that I see in clubs just don't seem to try as hard, or maybe there's just less difficult music in today's era to choose from... I dunno. Technical proficiency isn't as much in demand as it used to be apparently.

[Will Chen]

Originally posted by The Pro ...Technical proficiency isn't as much in demand as it used to be apparently.

 

 

Well the majority seem to agree technique is gong downhill (although I argue that from a purely technical perspective guitar players of the "guitar god" movement of the '80s far surpassed the '60s and '70s with a few exceptions).

 

Is this a situation of pop music giving the people what they want?

 

Anyone could certainly buy tickets to their local symphony and see a group of highly educated and technically proficient musicians...

[Billster]

Originally posted by Anderton But to the larger question, I think it's like this: There are a lot more musicians these days. So I think the number of truly technically proficient musicians probably hasn't changed all that much, but the percentage based on the total number of musicians probably has.

 

 

Another possibility is that more people are present where we can see them perform music badly. A century ago, a parlor musician played at home and got direct feedback from tortured houseguests.

 

Today, a parlor musician has a website, a credit card and telephone number to Discmakers. And as you can tell from society in general, modesty has taken a looooooooooooooong sabbatical. So you can be exposed to a lot of stuff that previously would have been kept private.

[philbo]

I think I keep getting better as I get older. And, paradoxically, as I practice less and less, the quality of what I play seems to be getting better and better...

My caliber is about 36 inches around the waist, for whatever that's worth...

[phaeton]

As others have said, i'll have to chime in as well-

my playing ability has completely gone to crap as I've aged. Mostly due to tendonitis and lack of practice, but even if i were in top form i think i would be bored of the shredding/thrashing stuff by now.

However, my musical perception has grown. I hear and understand music on a whole different level than what I did several years ago. For instance, i only *thought* i understood what rhythm was, but after getting into jazz for a little while my eyes were opened up.

As a result, the biggest thing I notice about "new music" vs. "old music" is rhythm content is almost non-existent in newer stuff where the older stuff has it in droves. Yeah, modern music is "in time" and it has "rhythm", but it doesn't appear that the musicians playing really feel the rhythm, and the result is a song that doesn't really have the same 'life' to it. The drums are sterile sounding, and the bass guitar completely ignores them to follow the rhythm guitar 1:1. Folks, this does not work.
When I was younger I always thought "rhythm == speed" but now I know I was quite mistaken, and it seems like a great deal of songs actually got onto the radio in the last 15 years or so making the same mistake.

I think this is why some stuff just meanders around boringly like background music (nickelback, anyone?) and other songs really jump out of the speaker to kick you in the ass and say "HEY, DAMMIT!".

I also have a theory that this is also what separates timeful music from timeless ones. All the "standards" or "classics" that we've all cherished over the decades have endured because you feel them in your bones. Everything else from the era was forgettable because all they had were cutesy-wutesy lyrics or attractive band members.

Correct me if I'm wrong!

[Billster]

That was one of my first thoughts too Phaeton

I don't have the chops I used to have, but hopefully my boundaries have expanded and I can do more with less, in terms of musical expression.

[Scafeets]

Originally posted by Billster Today, a parlor musician has a website, a credit card and telephone number to Discmakers. And as you can tell from society in general, modesty has taken a looooooooooooooong sabbatical. So you can be exposed to a lot of stuff that previously would have been kept private.

 

 

Yeah...I hadn't thought of that.

 

I guess more non-talents are getting exposure because it's so much easier to record, manufacture and distribute recordings.

 

That said, I think there's just as much musicianship now as then. It's just harder to find since there's no real outlet for what was then "underground" or "progressive" radio. And the days when you could go to the Fillmore (NY, SF), or Fox (Cleve, Atlanta) or Roxy (LA, Philly) and hear three great bands for three bucks are gone, too.

 

Then, there's the local club scene, where live music has been eviscerated by disco, titty bars, sports bars, karaoke and anything else that can cost less or generate more $$$ for the owner.

[phaeton]

I should probably add the rose colored glasses angle....

I wasn't around in the 1960s, for instance, but i bet that there were just as many lame bands and {censored}ty songs on the radio then as there are now, but they've all evaporated in time and all we have left are the "good ones" to define the era. Well, maybe not as many, but proportionately good:bad was probably the same.

The ones that have endured have done so because they were solid tunes to begin with. So anyone looking back sees it as "well, ALL the music from then was good"....

[Zooey]

I love talent, but I love innovation and creativity more. I'd rather hear almost anyone play an innovative song sloppily than Celine Dion perform a standard flawlessly.

I guess this is my obscure way of saying it's not the talent I miss (if it is indeed missing).

[Ernest Buckley]

I think talent today is just as good as years ago, not better nor worse. I do feel that the music industry is looking to exploit certain talent more than others. Theres a Sinatra out there and a Hendrix but the labels are not into selling that.

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally posted by Zooey I love talent, but I love innovation and creativity more. I'd rather hear almost anyone play an innovative song sloppily than Celine Dion perform a standard flawlessly. I guess this is my obscure way of saying it's not the talent I miss (if it is indeed missing).

 

 

I could not agree more...

 

I think musicianship is probably as high as it's ever been, but that many other processes (whether that's zeitgeist or marketing or recording or whatever) has changed.

[Scafeets]

Originally posted by phaeton I should probably add the rose colored glasses angle.... I wasn't around in the 1960s, for instance, but i bet that there were just as many lame bands and {censored}ty songs on the radio then as there are now, but they've all evaporated in time and all we have left are the "good ones" to define the era. Well, maybe not as many, but proportionately good:bad was probably the same. The ones that have endured have done so because they were solid tunes to begin with. So anyone looking back sees it as "well, ALL the music from then was good"....

 

 

Oh Yeah!... If you really want to see what was happening in say, 1968 check this out:

http://musiclab.co.jp/billboard/at/no1hc/top40hits_1968.html

 

We remember Hendrix (who didn'sell much and din't make the singles charts) and the other greats, but I'm glad to leave a lot of the others behind, like...

Ohio Express, Bobby Goldsboro, Tommy James & the Shondells, 1910 Fruitgum Company, Andy Kim, Gary Lewis, Englebert {censored}ing Humperdink, Tiny Tiem, The Human Beinz, Bobby Vinton, The Cowsills, etc.

[Ani]

It's no big secret, but I don't talk about it all that much either. I was doing some wiring and I neglected to put a voltage meter on the wire in a junction box before I grabbed ahold of it. Yes, I had flipped the circuit breaker, but it was faulty and was still passing AC even in the 'tripped" position. Lesson learned - never assume, and always check with a meter.

Thanks for sharing Phil. I have the next 5 days off from work and electrical wiring is at the top of my list for things to do. There is a piggy back 40 Amp breaker box that has not been dedicated to anything in particular that I'm planning on taking out entirely. The Kansas City Power & Light company separated and supposedly disconnected the piggy back at the meter, which should make things safe for me to remove the old wiring and 40 Amp box, but with some of the crazy things that I've ran across in the way this house was wired.... a meter might be a wise idea. I've got a small voltage tester that I was planning to use before digging into the wiring, but it's just one of the cheap ones that you stick into the receptacle. I've been debating on whether or not to buy a multimeter or digital voltage tester; maybe I'll swing by the hardware store tonight before they close to pick one up.

I've been zapped pretty good before while using a jigsaw to access a wall where the circuit breaker powering the receptacle on that wall had been turned off. There was another live wire running into the box from an outside source that I struck with the blade while going down the wall. The jolt knocked me off balance and in the process of falling, I lost control of the jigsaw still running and the blade hammered through my sneakers and chewed my big toe to pieces before I could get away from the blade. I've since learned to turn the power off at the main breaker entering into the home prior to working on electrical wiring or accessing walls that I don't know for sure what's going through them. Since the other 40 Amp panel is wired directly from the meter.... even with the main panel turned off, it would behoove me to test it for voltage prior to ripping it out.

I'll add a bit on topic in a minute...

[MoreGuitars]

I'm sure there are many, many great players out there that I have never or will ever hear, but in mainstream music today, I have not been blown away by anyone new in many years. Maybe I'm just getting older, but I would have a hard time hearing a new artist on todays radio and be inspired to pick up a guitar like I did 30+ years ago.

I am further convinced of this when I go to Guitar Center and seeing teenagers playing Hendrix, Cream, LZ and Deep Purple....
They still inspire.

[Ani]

Musicianship....

I think that the age of electronic technology and sound manipulation has replaced a lot of the musicianship in today's music scene. Musical talent is no longer required to become a high profile performer; the art of sound has been placed in the hands of the engineers and/or those capable of manipulating sound or preprogrammed rhythms/accompaniments. No longer do you need a full blown orchestra to play behind a solo artist. A single skilled technician with a synthesizer can emulate a full house of skilled musicians with one single instrument or a skilled audio engineer can "fix it in the mix" or redo the tracks entirely using his own skill. Add in a few extra band members or multiple tracks to add depth and definition to the production and today's society accepts the presentation as a musical talent.

I have had classically trained musicians stand and watch me play my synthesizer and then ask... HOW DID YOU GET IT TO SOUND LIKE THAT???? My response is, well, when you hear this particular.... then do that...... They try it and get frustrated because they are so used to "perfect timing" that they will hit a second too late or a second too early and the riff will go in an entirely different direction. You punch this button to accomplish that.... you play when and where.... the classical musician becomes totally frustrated in trying to recreate what they just heard coming out of that black box...

However, I do NOT consider myself a proficient musician; although, I do know how to manipulate preprogrammed devices to produce a finished song. I stand in awe of a classically trained musician that is capable of playing complicated compositions and making their instrument "COME ALIVE". To hear the pristine crystal clear clarity ringing from the strings of a Grand Piano bring or a stringed instrument can melt me... A classical guitar can make me weak.... The thunder coming from a horn section or a bass guitar/instrument can get me excited about the MUSIC... A tight, yet realtime, drum can make the rhythm DANCE....

Although my musical abilities are limited to "science" and the manipulation of sound "gimmicks", some would say that I can play a instrument well.... I've got some folks fooled; but I personally feel that my personal music accompaniments to my songs are very lacking in musicianship. I'd be lying to myself to say anything else.... I can play a piano, BY EAR.... I love to relax into a setting of being able to play a Steinway Grand in an auditorium WITH NO ONE AROUND... I'm not good enough, or at least I don't feel I'm good enough to allow anyone to hear me play live. I get nervous and start screwing up; but I love to play piano and synthesizer both in the privacy of my own little world and for a recorder.

Maybe I'm rambling a bit here, but there is no replacement for true blue musicians that have mastered their instrument and that can bring out the quality and purity of the music....

Too many performers today have gone into automation instead of art.... The engineers and sound designers are the artists in these instances.

[js1]

There's still amazing musicians in all fields out here, but I'm not sure if the level of musicianship in BANDS is as consistant.

Used to be that the only way you could sound like a band is be in a band. The only way that people could hear you is to play in public. Playing together, getting audience feedback, and being challenged to improve by other musicians is the best way to grow.

These days, it's easier to record than form a band. And it's easier to make a CD than get gigs.

Funny ol' world.

js

[AJ6stringsting]

I'm a guiatrist, I seen many of the so-called guitar heroes of today. I think they lack technique, good musicianship and good song writting ability. I audition people on a regular basis and I 'm here to say ,it's really gone down hill. When I was their age I knew how to count (keep Time),mastered technique , and knew how to write better songs. I guess ,it went down hill with the"Grunge " scene that started in 1992. On the bright side,some of my guitar students seem to want to be more technical that their slightly older peers !

[meccajay]

Originally posted by AJ6stringsting I'm a guiatrist, I seen many of the so-called guitar heroes of today. I think they lack technique, good musicianship and good song writting ability. I audition people on a regular basis and I 'm here to say ,it's really gone down hill. When I was their age I knew how to count (keep Time),mastered technique , and knew how to write better songs. I guess ,it went down hill with the"Grunge " scene that started in 1992. On the bright side,some of my guitar students seem to want to be more technical that their slightly older peers !

I couldn't agree less..

About the Cobain part of it anyway. You can't fault Cobain for guitarist's chops today. Cobain can't really be classified as a "guitarist" in the classical sense of the word. Not really a singer/songwriter either. Yes he did those things, but those label's don't define him.

He was more of an artist. A musical force of nature.

Not the greatest guitarist, not the greatest singer, but the delivery of the entire package was OUT OF THIS WORLD!! He sung and played everything like it was the last day on earth...pure emotion. He meant that {censored}! Lived by that sword and died by it to...

Thr Grunge movement was....yeah, kinda weak compared to rock music that proceeded it, but also weak by comparison to the art of Cobain who proceeded it and took it to another place.

Jonny Lang followed Cobain in the 90's, why do young guitarists not follow his example? Maybe the bigwigs at clear channel have more to do with this than anyone actually making music.

[Bartolomeo]

I think it's impossible to generalize.

 

I also think that some musicians and some styles put too much emphasis on virtuoso playing. Fast licks are not the be all and end all of music. Good technical still is a prerequisite to good playing but exceptional technical still usually isn't.

 

I'll observe that while serious musicians have more or less the same skill mix they always have, the musicianship of the also-rans has probably declined. I chalk this up more to a lack of willingness to invest hours a day over the course of some years in a particular skill than I do to availability of technology that obviates the need for good playing.

 

The better I get the farther away I seem from the skill I really want to have. As time goes on I keep having to redefine my idea of how good you have to be to be good enough. Not just technical skill though, knowing the material, sightreading, improv, theory, playing tight with a band, and being able to smooth out the rough edges with bandmates and venues are all part of it.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Originally posted by Bartolomeo I think it's impossible to generalize. I also think that some musicians and some styles put too much emphasis on virtuoso playing. Fast licks are not the be all and end all of music. Good technical still is a prerequisite to good playing but exceptional technical still usually isn't. I'll observe that while serious musicians have more or less the same skill mix they always have, the musicianship of the also-rans has probably declined. I chalk this up more to a lack of willingness to invest hours a day over the course of some years in a particular skill than I do to availability of technology that obviates the need for good playing. The better I get the farther away I seem from the skill I really want to have. As time goes on I keep having to redefine my idea of how good you have to be to be good enough. Not just technical skill though, knowing the material, sightreading, improv, theory, playing tight with a band, and being able to smooth out the rough edges with bandmates and venues are all part of it.

 

 

Franz Liszt (1811-1886) was quite a piano player, as is Herbie Hancock, Keith Jarret, and many others. It's always about the music, and how you interpret resp. perform. Technology has nothing to do with musicianship. However it could be that the computer is a musical instrument of it's own nowadaysl.

 

.

 

"Fast licks are not the be all and end all of music"

 

I know a joke on that...

 

John Scofield in the garderobe after the concert: You know Miles, i had to come in right there because it was sounding sooo good.

 

Miles: You know why it was sounding soooo good?

 

Scofield: No!

 

Miles: Because you weren't playing!

 

.

[Will Chen]

Originally posted by MoreGuitars I'm sure there are many, many great players out there that I have never or will ever hear, but in mainstream music today, I have not been blown away by anyone new in many years. Maybe I'm just getting older, but I would have a hard time hearing a new artist on todays radio and be inspired to pick up a guitar like I did 30+ years ago. I am further convinced of this when I go to Guitar Center and seeing teenagers playing Hendrix, Cream, LZ and Deep Purple.... They still inspire.

I think you're just getting older.

While I do believe musicianship on the whole is falling, there are guitars players out there as talented as they ever were. Us older guys have heard it all and heard it all again so it's much harder to wow us, but try to picture your ears fresh. Most of today's kids weren't subject to the superchop-solos on every song in the 80's and probably only know the "classics" due to them being published in the guitar mag special "hero" editions.

Here are 3 modern guitarists which if I find interesting and if I hadn't been playing for around 20 years, might drive me to pick up an axe for the first time:

Tom Morello - Rage Against the Machine, Audioslave - One could argue he's the only guitarist really keeping Hendrix's spirit alive (which in my opinion is bringing the instrument to a place where nobody's brought it before). Like him or hate him, he is extremely unique in his approach and, like Hendrix, uses technology to push the boundaries of how a guitar "should" sound.

Jake Cinninger - Umphrey's McGee - This guy burns. You can hear some Vai/Zappa influence in his style. While often considered a jam band, they're really more on the prog rock side without being as calculated as that genre normally sounds. Additionally, his tone is really unique and low gain compared with most modern rock bands.

Synyster Gates - Avenged Sevenfold - Despite the cheesy pseudonym, this guy has talent that would rival pretty much any 80's modal Guitar God (which inspired an entire generation). As the band's dark skull and shotgun imaging (remember Guns and Roses?) will shurely capture the imagination of 13-18 year old boys, I imagine you will see him on the cover of all the guitar mags annually from here on out.