Pandora Internet Radio Nears Its 'Last Stand'

[Kerouac]

The great thing about Pandora is it actually inspires me to BUY MORE RECORDS. I bought three CDs this weekend that I heard singles off of from Pandora. I haven't purchased anything I've heard off of broadcast radio in 5+ years. All ym record purchases have come from recommendations from friends and independent press.

[Hard Truth]

In the case of Pandora specifically, they are killing a goose laying golden eggs. Because it exposes people to new artists somewhat similar to artists the listener enjoys, I am sure it has generated sales for new artists.

[Jerry_L]

 

The great thing about Pandora is it actually inspires me to BUY MORE RECORDS. I bought three CDs this weekend that I heard singles off of from Pandora. I haven't purchased anything I've heard off of broadcast radio in 5+ years. All ym record purchases have come from recommendations from friends and independent press.

 

 

+1

 

I left my MP3 player at home today. When this occurs, Pandora is my salvation, and listening to Pandora for any length of time usually inspires me to buy more CDs, one so far today.

[Anderton]

You can see Craig 's life through the lens of a pinhole at best, and yet you act as if you think you're some sort of omniscient god. You're in no position to make assessments, let alone judgments. Best, Geoff

 

Thanks Geoff, but I have the feeling he didn't mean it in a condemnatory sense. Technically, anyone who bought, say, a Led Zeppelin album "fed the machine."

 

The distinction is that while I have profited by working for major and indepenendent labels, I've also blown the whistle when I felt the machine was not serving either its artists or its audience.

 

And speaking of profiting from the machine...if anyone sees Kevin Eggers, tell him he owes me $$$ for the reissues of the three Mandrake Memorial CDs...

[Anderton]

 

The great thing about Pandora is it actually inspires me to BUY MORE RECORDS. I bought three CDs this weekend that I heard singles off of from Pandora. I haven't purchased anything I've heard off of broadcast radio in 5+ years. All ym record purchases have come from recommendations from friends and independent press.

 

 

+1,000,000

 

There have been several times I've listened to Internet radio and clicked on the "Buy Now" button for CDs I never would have heard otherwise.

[Kerouac]

 

+1,000,000 There have been several times I've listened to Internet radio and clicked on the "Buy Now" button for CDs I never would have heard otherwise.

 

 

I just picked up a release by the band Sun Kil Moon. It's the new band from the former singer of Red House Painters. I had no idea that he had been up to anything and just had to buy the album right away and I've listened to it pretty much all weekend.

 

For along time I stopped buying any new CDs but since I discovered Pandora my CD budget has outpaced my DVD budget for the first time in ages.

[thefunkman]

Have you ever noticed how so many "business people" run around, shouting: "ready, FIRE!, aim..."?

 

Congratulations to Big Media, who know the power of a good idea, & how to buy off enough politicians to make sure they are killed...

[Music Calgary]

Ironically when you bought the CDs you saw on Pandora you fed it's assassin.

[Anderton]

Ironically when you bought the CDs you saw on Pandora you fed it's assassin.

 

But you also fed the artist. So, Pandora might die, the major labels might die, but the artist will live to create more.

[Music Calgary]

But you also fed the artist. So, Pandora might die, the major labels might die, but the artist will live to create more.

 

Sophistry. You want to feed the artist? Send them a cheque...

 

By far the smallest chunk of your $9.99 went to the artist, if at all after recoupables. According to him, Sugar Ray sold 16 million copies of his "best of" album -- for each copy sold he netted less than a penny.

[Kerouac]

Sophistry. You want to feed the artist? Send them a cheque... By far the smallest chunk of your $9.99 went to the artist, if at all after recoupables. According to him, Sugar Ray sold 16 million copies of his "best of" album -- for each copy sold he netted less than a penny.

 

Buy indie, direct from the group whenever possible.

[Anderton]

Sophistry. You want to feed the artist? Send them a cheque... By far the smallest chunk of your $9.99 went to the artist, if at all after recoupables. According to him, Sugar Ray sold 16 million copies of his "best of" album -- for each copy sold he netted less than a penny.

 

Who said the CDs were produced by major labels? I can't remember the last time I bought a major label release...and the artist gets a much bigger cut than a penny with a self-produced release. I'm the guy who buys the CDs on the tables outside the gig that the artist sells. If they're getting less than a penny from that, they're morons.

 

You seem to make a lot of assumptions. Or maybe "Caldo Verde Records" is some huge label that Sun Kil Moon created specifically for ripping themselves off big-time

[Anderton]

Here are some links so you can see the current state of reality. The second link by Danny Goldberg is particularly interesting, as he made the transition from major to indie.

 

http://www.performermag.com/IndieVSMajorContracts.php

 

http://rapcoalition.org/label_exec_$$_breakdown.htm

 

This isn't to say major labels are pure as the driven snow; demanding to pay the same royalty rates for CDs as for vinyl when the CD appeared ("Well the cost will go down, it's digital!") is a good example, even though it is a couple decades old, and the world was a different place then. Trying to avoid paying royalties on digital downloads is another, as is taking publishing from acts who don't realize they can negotiate these things.

 

But the simple fact of the matter is that your "machine" is set up to sell large numbers of records and has large expenses. The reason for so much consolidation and buyouts of labels is because parent companies expected to make huge amounts of bucks. They didn't. Catalog is worth something, because all costs have already been recouped - but these days, major labels THEMSELVES cannot sustain the machine that produces something like "Thriller." This is why independent labels now have a market share that is more than many major labels of yore, and more artists are deciding to go with indies, or market their own music. They don't have to feed a machine with overhead, artists that get strung out on junk and fail to deliver records, etc.

 

So, bottom line: There are now "machines" on all levels, from major labels selling Nickleback to little, efficient, four-cylinder "machines" where the artist may not sell as much in terms of volume, but makes more overall. Don't kid yourself: Even the CDs on the card tables are part of a machine. It's just a machine that I personally find more worthy of support - and not just for philosophical reasons, but because the music is more interesting.

[Geoff Grace]

And who says all major label deals are cut from the same cloth? I happen to have worked for recording artists who made a lot of money from record sales.

 

Granted, there have been many bad record deals for artists -- too many; but there have been some really good ones too. The side with the best bargaining position usually wins.

 

One of the best bargaining positions an artist can have is a history of having sold millions of copies. Unfortunately, well-intentioned consumers who boycott major label releases help to diminish the amount of recording artists who can lay claim to high sales and thereby leverage them into higher royalty rates.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Geoff Grace]

Oh, and I'd swap bank accounts with Mark McGrath from Sugar Ray in a heartbeat. I know where his beach house is. That guy's got to be worth millions!

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Anderton]

And who says all major label deals are cut from the same cloth? I happen to have worked for recording artists who made a lot of money from record sales. One of the best bargaining positions an artist can have is a history of having sold millions of copies. Unfortunately, well-intentioned consumers who boycott major label releases help to diminish the amount of recording artists who can lay claim to high sales and thereby leverage them into higher royalty rates.

 

The issue is so much more complex than a lot of people make it out to be.

 

Of course, if a record company just ups and stiffs an artist, then they should be sued, vilified, and nailed to the wall. Fortunately it's getting harder for companies to cook the books, as so many are publicly held and their finances have to be pretty transparent. And I've never signed a contract that didn't give me the right to bring in an accountant and inspect a company's books. I thought one of the classier moves was when a label bought Chess Records and paid all the back royalties owed to black artists who'd been screwed over in the 50s and 60s.

 

But sometimes the reason why an artist doesn't make money off of records is because of greed, and sometimes it's a shrewd business move. In the former, they think they're the next Beatles and run up the recoupables - really expensive videos, top-notch directors, models that cost $1,000 an hour, limos to and from the shoot, spending hundreds of hours in a world-class studio, etc. Now, this isn't their money - yet; it's the record company's which is essentially serving as a bank making an interest-free loan - and if the record doesn't sell, the record company is exposed to a huge amount of risk. There's also the issue of why a record company would let an act get away with this, but that's another story.

 

On the other hand a band might make a calculated gamble to do expensive videos and such on the assumption that it will make them big stars, thus increasing their draw on the road and generating $$ in the merch department. For them, it might make a lot of economic sense to concede $2-$3 million in record royalties to net $10 million from touring, and further a career in the process.

 

Finally, artists don't have to sign contracts: They can walk away if they don't like it. I negotiate my own contracts, and I put in lot of "subject to artist's approval, such approval not to be unreasonably withheld"-type clauses. On my book contracts, I also insert a clause about being able to purchase the plates used for printing at scrap metal cost should the book go out of print - that way it can just go to another publisher. I add a lot of things, some of them unreasonable that I can "concede" at the last moment to make sure I get the things that are reasonable and do matter to me.

 

For my last major label CD, I gave the label a DAT where I paid for the mastering myself and basically said "take it or leave it." I asked how much they were doing for their first pressing, calculated the royalties on that, and specified that as an advance.

 

With all the magazines for whom I write, I retain rights to the articles so I can "recycle" them in books or other formats.

 

Everything is negotiable. If an artist makes a deal that sucks, then the artist has to bear some responsibility.

[scud133]

wow this is the most depressing news i've seen all day.

 

Pandora is an incredible model of ingenuity and innovation in an industry that desperately needs it. I can't imagine what our world would be like if other industries deliberately stifled the advancement of technology...

 

They missed an incredible opportunity for growth in Napster, and now they're doing it again with Pandora. IMO, the RIAA and SoundExchange can't afford any more bad press. They're losing customers in droves. Their outrageously aggressive and unequal response to these challenges (which are really opportunities, but they approach everything with a negative mindset) are only making them bleed faster.

 

For the life of me, I can't figure out why someone in one of these organizations hasn't stood up and said --- Wait a minute --- what are we really doing here??

 

If Pandora can't hold up to the higher rates, then what is going to happen to all the little guys??

[Kerouac]

The Pandora story is on my local TV station right now, but it was basically a 30 second blub about how it was on the verge of shutting down because of royalty rates. EVen though I don't think most casual viewers would really get it, I still thought it was interesting to see when just flippin' channels.

[GroovepusherSly]

Pandora and other internet radio stations need to contract directly with artists, for new, custom, and live recordings. Then, still use the same engine to select and play songs. I would still listen to Pandora cause I'm sick of regular radio and it's commercials.

One of the best bargaining positions an artist can have is a history of having sold millions of copies. Unfortunately, well-intentioned consumers who boycott major label releases help to diminish the amount of recording artists who can lay claim to high sales and thereby leverage them into higher royalty rates. Geoff

Back on the EQ forum in a similar discussion I brought up the issue of live performance, and how this was once the only way music could be heard. Without getting into that whole philosophical study. Counting actual heads at gigs, WILL, in the future, be the measure once again of what an artists real leverage is.

 

Sly

[3red]

 

Counting actual heads at virtual gigs, WILL, in the future, be the measure once again of what an artists real leverage is.

 

 

^^^^^^^

[sonik]

It's like a series of tubes, in an ever tightening vise!

[timrocker]

Pandora is awesome. I already sent one series of emails to legislators about this two years ago. Is there any thing we can do to help today?

[franknputer]

Regarding SoundExchange: the concept is actually fairly sound, regardless of the execution. I actually think it's quite fair to assess a royalty for a specific recording, and that those who are a part of said recording receive that royalty. I think we can all point to a record that is special because of the players involved, and that the same song by different musicians would not be as desirable. That is the basic idea behind the SoundExchange royalty, that the players who made a record get a piece of the long-term pie in addition to the songwriters.

 

As for its application, however, I agree that it's pretty screwy. There's so little money in most webcasting that it's really unfair to slap huge fees on it, more that terrestrial broadcasters.

 

Of course, the flip side of that is that people who are running a business should expect to pay a reasonable price for what sells their main commodity - which is what webcasters, broadcasters, etc. are doing when they pay those royalties. Radio isn't about music, and it never has been. They sell advertising, and only play music so that there are people to listen to the ads. Likewise, as soon as they start pushing advertising for a profit, then internet radio does the same thing. Without music no one would listen (would YOU listen to a station that played 100% commercials 24/7/365?) so they NEED music (or something) to get listeners - and it seems reasonable to expect them to pay for the programming they need.

 

Certainly, artists who own their own copyrights are free to strike any deal they like with broadcasters, just like they can with traditional record companies. Perhaps this will be part of the wave of the future.

[Will Chen]

I will be extremely sad to see Pandora go.

 

On the "feed the machine" topic...The major labels are marketing firms, nothing more, and always have been. Nobody forced any of the artists to sign away their profits, well maybe Shug Night...All the artists who signed big label deals did so because they saw it as a positive career move.

 

Sure, you can argue until you're blue in the face about the small royalties but how else would these artists get the level of exposure a major label offers? If Craig or anyone else on the forum made some money "feeding the machine", more power to them. We all gotta put food on the table.

 

The global society is full of systems which feed the fat by enslaving the poor which make the music industry look like a little girl's tea party. Get over it, there's nothing virtuous about starving...

[blue2blue]

 

But you also fed the artist. So, Pandora might die, the major labels might die, but the artist will live to create more.

 

That's in the event the artist actually was compensated for his work. I know a lot of folks who've got stiffed by labels and various stakeholders. Including, notably, yours truly.

 

That's why my current course of giving away my music doesn't really bug me much. After all, I'd rather give something away than have it stolen, whether it's a label stiffing me on pay for production work or "fans" "trading" things that don't belong to them.