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  • #16
    Originally posted by mbengs1 View Post
    because from experience. 50 watts isnt loud enough. my 60 watt jtm60 is loud enough its maxed out ( volume is about 75%). so whats the next step up in wattage? a hundred watts. i rarely see any wattage in between 50 and 100. (i guess since each power tube adds 25 watts of power and there can only an even number of power tubes) not like 100 watts u get plenty of headroom, which is what i look for in amps. a great clean sound that stays clean even at high volumes. clean sound that gets as loud as a loud drummer at least. i want to get my distortion and overdrive sounds only from the pedals, no power tube distortion. i don't use ear plugs but if i play with a full band, i'd use earplugs since i've lost enough hearing.
    That's not how it works.

    There many factors.
    Amp class design operation, like class A, or A/B push pull. Tubes used in he power section. A 30 watt Vox AC 30 is pretty loud. The transformer makes a heap of difference and the speakers, and how many speakers and how the sound hits the user.

    The tone is in the power section of the amp. I'm just saying.


    The Fender TRRI is 85 watts and doesn't break up easily.





    _____________________________________
    Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase.

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    • #17
      play with a better drummer who doesn't play as loud as a Marshall...problem solved...take his 1A hickory sticks away, and give him some hotrods....seriously, NEVER LET THE DRUMMER DICTATE THE VOLUME...
      Last edited by daddymack; 03-07-2017, 02:45 PM.
      "We are currently experiencing some technical difficulties due to reality fluctuations. The elves are working tirelessly to patch the correct version of reality. Activities here have been temporarily disabled since the fundamentals of mathematics, physics and reason may be incomprehensible during this indeterminate period of instability. Normal service will be restored once we are certain as to what 'normal' is."

      Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally used up and worn out, shouting '...man, what a ride!'
      "The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively" ~Bob Marley

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      • #18
        Originally posted by daddymack;n31935569[B
        ]play with a better drummer who doesn't play as loud as a Marshall[/B]...problem solved...take his 1A hickory sticks away, and give him some hotrods....seriously, NEVER LET THE DRUMMER DICTATE THE VOLUME...
        I can't stress this enough.


        _____________________________________
        Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase.

        Join Date: Aug 2001
        Location: N. Adams, MA USA
        Posts as of Jan 10th 2013: 82,617

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        • #19
          I understand the OP's situation. I run a 100W SS head and a 50W tube head together all the time but I don't use the amps for gain channels.
          I run them as clean power amps and get my drive from various pedals, including Marshal gain pedals which sound as good as the Marshalls gain channels. Running amps this way is quite different them pushing an amp into saturation zones.

          It's all a matter of gain staging. I prefer to use low gain devices before high gain stages. This way there's still something left of the peaks before I run the signal through another gain flattener. If I run a high gain before low gain, the signals already flat and all that happened is boostyted noise levels by the second low gain pedal.

          If I push an amp into saturation, (not through a high gain channel) that's a relatively low gain breakup (loud but not highly saturated) If I use a high gain pedal before the amp saturation you have it makes for extra unwanted noise, loss of clarity and controllability, especially if you use echo/reverb at the end of your pedal chain. The amps drive causes the echo to breakup which is unnatural. This is where you get all your dissonant string beating from.

          You could put the gain pedals in the effects loop to negate that issue and then drive the amps gain up but again, it can be problematic if you are used to having the amps volume and EQ after your gain pedals. You also have more cables running back to the amp and setups can become more complex.

          If I were playing live I'd simply run a single amp at a higher volume. To get the best Recording tones running a pair of amps at lower clean volumes makes for less noise with a close miced speaker. I do need enough kick like I'd get with a single amp cranked louder but because I'm targeting the best tone with the least unwanted distortion I have to do that at lower volumes. Using 2 amps simply lets me get the dB levels I'm used to playing at live.

          I also have a relatively long pedal chain too and all the pedals and extra connectors does cut the signal strength down a bit, even with the pedals being true bypassed. I get those best tones from my rigs running my 100W Marshall at 50% and a 50W tube head at around 1/3. This would be fairly loud live but my studio is completely dead due to heavy soundproofing. I get no reflected tones at all in that room so unless you're ear level with the speakers the volume is much lower then you'd expect, in fact you'd think your amp was broken if you didn't know it was the room sucking the sound up like a sponge.

          . Decibel wise I could get the same loudness running a single amp at higher volume but for me its a matter of recording tone, not volume I'm after when I run dual amps. Footprint size, crystal clear cleans and fine tuned drive levels from saturation pedals. I also run my time based effects before the amps so I have no string beating issues.

          If I had matching heads, I'd likely run my pedals in the effects loops and I'd still have the stereo effects like chorus and echo. Because the amps are different and the vintage tube amp has no effects loop I'm better off using the pedals before both amps and using the amps EQ to get the pair sounding they're best.


          A 100W Marshall tube amp probably wouldn't be my first choice for running clean using pedals. They don't sound nearly as good with the gain attenuated down to lower volumes. The bass really doesn't kick in till they are cranked up to around half power and treble/mid controls have very mild changes to the sound. They are great for tweaking pickups directly plugged in, one of the best in fact. Even the SS Marshall I have which is incredibly warm sounding can wind up sounding bland with the master volumes cranked down.

          A 100W Fender can be much more beefy at lower volumes but even there you'd want to be sure the amp has a master volume to attenuate the power amp down and crank the preamp up higher. Fender amp EQ circuits don't work effectively until the gain is up at least 1/3 or more.

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          • daddymack
            daddymack commented
            Editing a comment
            aplles and oranges, though...wha tyou do in the studio is never the same as wat you do in a live situation. Studio absorber is great...but honestly, most recording studios I've been in over the last 20 years run low wattage amps under 50W. Clean headroom is great, but there is a point of diminishing returns, and the fact that you use pedals in order to achieve the sound of natural overdrive confounds your argument.
            I do agree that a Fender Twin will be far cleaner at its max volume than any valve Marshall...
            and you could add a buffer to your pedal chain to minimize the signal degradation; you are not only losing volume, you are essentially leaving a broad spectrum of the signal behind.

        • #20
          Originally posted by mbengs1 View Post
          which is what i look for in amps. a great clean sound that stays clean even at high volumes. clean sound that gets as loud as a loud drummer at least. i want to get my distortion and overdrive sounds only from the pedals, no power tube distortion.
          Thinking about this part of your post...you really do not want a tube amp at all. You should get a powered speaker with a 1000-1200W class D amp. Oh, it won't look as impressive as a stack, but it will give you what you are looking for. You may want an EQ pedal in your chain since most of those speakers are very flat response
          "We are currently experiencing some technical difficulties due to reality fluctuations. The elves are working tirelessly to patch the correct version of reality. Activities here have been temporarily disabled since the fundamentals of mathematics, physics and reason may be incomprehensible during this indeterminate period of instability. Normal service will be restored once we are certain as to what 'normal' is."

          Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally used up and worn out, shouting '...man, what a ride!'
          "The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively" ~Bob Marley

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          • #21
            headroom is the important thing here. i want to turn up to gig volume without any or minimal power amp overdrive. it should remain pretty clean. that way i can get a good clean tone from the same amp just by switching off the distortion and turning on the chorus. its a simple requirement but important. but of course i can use two amps and use an a/b pedal, one set for high gain and another set for crystal sparkly clean.

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            • daddymack
              daddymack commented
              Editing a comment
              Which is why I suggested a powered speaker...1000-1200W should be plenty of clean headroom. This is what many keyboard players I know [and work with] have gone to, both for the power and the non-coloration; basically, you are playing through half of a PA.

          • #22
            There is a reason these were on many stages and asked for by travelling guitarists. They take pedal really well too.

            As a human being, you come with the whole range of inner possibilities
            from the deepest hell to the highest states.

            It is up to you which one you choose to explore
            .

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            • #23
              bought and sold several amps on this site (during my previous registration).................alway worked out, never buy new!

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              • #24
                I have quite a few amps, and the only one I bought new is one that I sold after a short time. Some of the used amps have had some minor problems, but for those that did, I knew about the trouble before I made the purchase. The amp I bought new was online and I had no chance to play it before I bought it. While I agree that most musicians are trustworthy with regard to gear they are selling, I would not buy another amp, new or used, without trying it out. I use amps for both bass and electric guitar. I know what sound I like, and I think there can be variations in the sound of even identical amps, so I want to play through the amp before I buy it.
                I've had enough of folks who don't know what they want, but are very good at knowing what they don't want.

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                • #25
                  The last amp I purchased was a early 70s Fender Princeton - I found it in a local pawn shop for eighty bucks. I have considerably more than that into it now, but it's probably worth twice what I spent on it including new parts and a new speaker for it. If I hadn't been able to diagnose and repair / update / restore it myself, that would definitely not be the case. If you're experienced and knowledgeable when it comes to electronics and working on amps, used amps are definitely a good way to go... if not, I'd only recommend them if you know they're in good shape, you have a good local tech who you trust, and/or the store has a refund / return policy to cover you in case you find you don't like it after all or have issues with it.
                  **********

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                  - Sir George Martin, All You Need Is Ears

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                  - Bob Lefsetz, The Lefsetz Letter

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                  • #26
                    Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe View Post
                    The last amp I purchased was a early 70s Fender Princeton - I found it in a local pawn shop for eighty bucks. I have considerably more than that into it now, but it's probably worth twice what I spent on it including new parts and a new speaker for it. If I hadn't been able to diagnose and repair / update / restore it myself, that would definitely not be the case. If you're experienced and knowledgeable when it comes to electronics and working on amps, used amps are definitely a good way to go... if not, I'd only recommend them if you know they're in good shape, you have a good local tech who you trust, and/or the store has a refund / return policy to cover you in case you find you don't like it after all or have issues with it.
                    I paid $250 for mine and thought that was a good deal. I added a Jensen P10R for $100 and have re-tubed it a few times. The only repair I had to do was replace the filter cap for the negative bias supply (have to be careful with the polarity on that one).

                    As a human being, you come with the whole range of inner possibilities
                    from the deepest hell to the highest states.

                    It is up to you which one you choose to explore
                    .

                    Comment


                    • #27
                      I think buying a used amp is more practical since amp technology is pretty old and its easy to have a tube amp fixed by my tech. but i might buy a brand new amp in the future. maybe a peavey 6505. any head with a good clean channel as well as lead channel.

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                      • #28
                        Originally posted by mbengs1 View Post
                        I think buying a used amp is more practical since amp technology is pretty old and its easy to have a tube amp fixed by my tech. but i might buy a brand new amp in the future. maybe a peavey 6505. any head with a good clean channel as well as lead channel.

                        It is old. As long as you can find what you want and you don't have to pump much money it to it, I say go for it.

                        Oh and they don't screw you over on shipping.

                        I tend to buy new amps, without issues and take care of them the way I want. I like the option to be able to send something back, if I am not super happy with my purchase. However, by the time I am ready to put down the $$$, I am pretty certain, what I want. I sent back one amp about 15 years ago.




                        _____________________________________
                        Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase.

                        Join Date: Aug 2001
                        Location: N. Adams, MA USA
                        Posts as of Jan 10th 2013: 82,617

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