Members senorblues Posted August 29, 2016 Members Share Posted August 29, 2016 A venue I play at regularly just got hit by an increase in ASCAP fees and has decided that music is no longer viable. Apparently, the guy doing weekly open mics will keep his gig by limiting performers to originals. I'm wondering if I can salvage my gig by playing public domain songs exclusively. Has anyone run into this problem and, more importantly, considered this solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted August 29, 2016 Members Share Posted August 29, 2016 I can't remember if I've discussed this on this forum so please forgive me if I'm repeating myself. Years ago I played a club (six nights a week) where the owners decided to pass the SOCAN costs on to the musicians. SOCAN is basically a Canadian version of ASCAP. IIRC it cost the band just under a hundred dollars a week. It wasn't really "legal" for the club to do that but they did it anyway. I would think that some communication with ASCAP might shed some light on the subject. If you had a response from them in writing, that public domain songs were just fine, that might change the club's tune. Obviously you wouldn't want to mention the venue's name in any oral or written communication. BTW that must have been some increase. I assume they're going with streaming music for their background needs as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members senorblues Posted August 29, 2016 Author Members Share Posted August 29, 2016 I'll rephrase the question. I'm assuming many of you have approached a venue that didn't have music to see if they were receptive to hiring you. Seems to me that if their response was "We used to have live music, but the ASCAP fees were too high." - and I've heard this more than once - wouldn't it makes sense to offer music content that eliminated that objection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted August 30, 2016 Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 A venue I play at regularly just got hit by an increase in ASCAP fees and has decided that music is no longer viable. Apparently' date=' the guy doing weekly open mics will keep his gig by limiting performers to originals.[/quote']All songs are originals. Even if the performer wrote them, if the songs are registered with ASCAP/BMI the venue has to have a license. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members senorblues Posted August 30, 2016 Author Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 All songs are originals. Even if the performer wrote them, if the songs are registered with ASCAP/BMI the venue has to have a license. Good point . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pogo97 Posted August 30, 2016 Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 Depending on when the composer died, many standards are public domain, I do believe. But it's a bit of a minefield -- Irving Berlin lived to be 100. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members senorblues Posted August 30, 2016 Author Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 For some reason, 1922 seems to be a significant year. I suspect there are other songs that could be added to the list that aren't considered to be as popular. I was hoping to find someone who's been through this and has done the research. http://www.pdinfo.com/pd-music-genres/pd-popular-songs.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pogo97 Posted August 30, 2016 Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 My personal songbook contains 80 songs from 1922 and before, which would be two nights worth. However, I wouldn't even consider singing some of them that I learned for a WWI concert -- awful, evil lying pro-war songs. I wouldn't call it a great era in song and 1922 is just about when things start to get good, but here's a list that I'd gladly work from if there was occasion to do so. (The list you linked to, by the way, is brilliant!) 1650 The Water Is Wide Anonymous1750 Shady Grove Anonymous1823 Home Sweet Home John Howard Payne & Henry Bishop1825 Shenandoah Anonymous1834 Annie Laurie Alicia Scott1848 Oh! Susanna Stephen Foster1850 Careless Love Anonymous1850 The Spinning Wheel John Francis Waller1851 Old Folks At Home Stephen Foster1852 My Old Kentucky Home Stephen Foster1852 Camptown Races Stephen Foster1854 Hard Times Come Again No More Stephen Foster1854 Jeanie With the Light Brown Hair Stephen Foster1855 Some Folks Stephen Foster1864 Beautiful Dreamer Stephen Foster1864 If You've Only Got a Moustache Stephen Foster1874 My Grandfather's Clock Henry Clay Work1875 The Spelling Bee Septimus Winner1880 The Kerry Dance James Lynam Molloy1883 Molly Malone Anonymous1884 All Through the Night Anonymous1885 The Boy I Love is Up in the Gallery George Ware1899 Hello! Ma Baby Joseph E. Howard and Ida Emerson1899 Keep on the Sunny Side Ada Blenkhorn & J. Howard Entwisle1902 In The Good Old Summertime Ren Shields & George Evans1902 Under the Double Eagle Josef Franz Wagner1904 Frankie and Johnnie Anonymous1905 Wait ‘Till the Sun Shines, Nellie Harry Von Tilzer & Andrew B. Sterling1908 Shine on, Harvest Moon Disputed1908 Down By The Old Mill Stream Harry Macdonough1909 By the Light of the Silvery Moon Gus Edwards & Edward Madden1910 When Father Papered the Parlour Weston & Barnes1910 Some Of These Days Shelton Brooks1911 Alexander's Ragtime Band Irving Berlin1911 The Floral Dance Katie Moss1912 Waiting for the Robert E Lee Muir & Gilbert1912 Moonlight Bay Percy Wenrich, the lyrics by Edward Madden1913 Danny Boy anonymous & Frederic Weatherly1913 Ballin' the Jack Chris Smith & James Henry Burris1913 You Made Me Love You Joseph McCarthy & James V. Monaco1914 The Aba Daba Honeymoon Arthur Fields and Walter Donovan1914 Saint Louis Blues W. C. Handy1914 There's a Long Long Trail A-Winding Stoddard King & Alonzo "Zo" Elliott1914 They Didn't Believe Me Jerome Kern, lryics by Herbert Reynolds1915 I Ain't Got Nobody Spencer Williams & Roger Graham1916 Walkin' The Dog Shelton Brooks1917 I'm Always Chasing Rainbows Harry Carroll & Joseph McCarthy1917 For Me and My Gal George W. Meyer, Edgar Leslie & E. Ray Goetz1917 Darktown Strutters Ball Shelton Brooks1917 I Didn't Raise My Boy To Be A Soldier Alfred Bryan & Al Piantadosi1918 After You've Gone Turner Layton & Henry Creamer1918 Down By the Riverside1918 Somebody Stole My Gal Leo Wood1919 Let The Rest Of The World Go By J. Keirn Brennan & Ernest R. Ball1920 Avalon Al Jolson, Buddy DeSylva & Vincent Rose1920 Look for the Silver Lining Jerome Kern, lyrics by Buddy DeSylva1920 Ain't We Got Fun Richard A. Whiting, lyrics by Raymond B. Egan & Gus Kahn1920 After You Get What You Want, You Don't Want It Irving Berlin1922 Chicago (That Toddlin' Town) Fred Fisher1922 Yes! We Have No Bananas Frank Silver & Irving Cohn1922 My Buddy Gus Kahn & Walter Donaldson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members senorblues Posted August 30, 2016 Author Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 Thanks! One reason I'm considering this is because the gig I'm considering trying to rescue has only been two hours, so it wouldn't be a huge undertaking. Time to do some serious listening . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted August 30, 2016 Moderators Share Posted August 30, 2016 How did the club rationalize this to the band? 'We're cutting your pay because our costs just went up'? Jeez...charge an extra quarter a drink, lunkheads... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted August 30, 2016 Moderators Share Posted August 30, 2016 I would avoid things like Darktown Strutters' Ball, some of the Stephen Foster material is also consider a tad racist. Here in the US, no sound recording will be in the public domain until 2067, unless the copyright holders explicitly place into the public domain...so we have a long wait...but there is the Lostprophets material that Sony relinquished a couple of years ago... There has been a lot of backlash regarding the ASCAP fees, and sadly much of it is rooms refusing to pay and killing off gigs. Nothing is sadder to me than an empty stage...except great musicians with nowhere to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Voltan Posted August 30, 2016 Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 lawyers getting rich off of other peoples work... there ought to be a law.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Voltan Posted August 30, 2016 Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 who owns original sound? now theres a market... i hereby declare, by divine right and manifest destiny, that i fully and completely retain all rights and ownership of sound, in its entirety of being. there, its in writing, its been read on the internet. it is now undisputed factual truth forever and ever or until the ink almost dries on this poast... If you can own music, and thats a pretty big "if", you only own the music thats inside you, once youve given birth, its got its own life. get over it paul williams, just because you own it on paper doesnt mean you can ever " own it " live, on stage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pogo97 Posted August 30, 2016 Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 I'm careful about Stephen Foster, too. "'Tis summer and the darkies are gay" indeed! "Darktown Strutter's Ball," though, is a little different. It was written by a black man (from Canada btw) and is a description of a social event that he would have known well and probably attended. Is it racist for me to sing the original words? They are clearly about an urban black celebration. I'll take that chance in order to sing a great and (in its time) very popular song. No one has called me on it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted August 30, 2016 Moderators Share Posted August 30, 2016 Sorry, I'm pretty sure Apple beat you to it when they set up iTunes...in fact, don't bother copyright filing your creations...just hand it over to them now and save yourself the trouble... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Voltan Posted August 30, 2016 Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 i understand the debacle too well... i once heard tell of some crazy fellow that got around this for a while by "renting a space" at a venue... he wasnt hired to play music, he rented the stage from the owners and then after his contractual agreement had ended, he cleaned the stage and was remunerated for his labor in cleaning. he got paid for cleaning, what he does in his rented space is his business... he isnt playing music for money or for anyone other than himself in his rightfully rented space, if others want to listen they are free to do so, if they dont, they dont have to... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Voltan Posted August 30, 2016 Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 dmac, they cant even properly record what im doing... lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pogo97 Posted August 30, 2016 Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 'Yes, We Have No Bananas', on the other hand, is clearly racist. A dialect song about Greeks. And I've actually never sung it in public. The 1899 cylinder recording of 'Hello Ma Baby' is introduced as 'A coon song sung by Arthur Collins'. And the singer is portrayed as a gullible simpleton. But it's pretty easy to change out a few words to fix the racist part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the_big_e Posted August 30, 2016 Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 From http://www.ascap.com/~/media/files/pdf/licensing/brochures/music_in_the_marketplace.pdf A blanket license permits the license holder to perform any or all the works in the performing rights organization’s repertory. If a choice is made to publicly perform only music that is in the public domain—that is, music that is no longer or never was protected by copyright—no license is necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members senorblues Posted August 30, 2016 Author Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 That was my assumption. Still wondering if anyone else has ever pursued this. I'm guessing rarely, if ever, but if it's a restaurant wallpaper gig, and you're playing in your own style so that it's sound that is what is being offered, more than the song content, seems to me it would serve the purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pat'sStrat Posted August 30, 2016 Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 I have lost a couple of gigs because venues decided it cost too much. The problem is, each PRO uses a different formula to charge the venues. One uses seating, and another uses square footage, and so on. And when they have three of them (ASCASP, BMI, SESAC) beating on their door, well... I would rather the PROs charge musicians to perform covers. I'd gladly pay it. If everyone paid in, it would cost each of us something like 50 or 100 dollars a year, kind of like union dues, which amounts to one night's gig or less for me to pay out. It would encourage more venues to hire more musicians and the PRO would make more as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members senorblues Posted August 30, 2016 Author Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 I haven't talked to the owner yet . . . taking a wait and see attitude. The venue has two good sized rooms but the restaurant upstairs where I've played only has music once a week. Downstairs is three times a week - an open mic, and cover charged the other two. I don't know how the ASCAP fees are applied to this venue, but the underlying issue seems to be that if a large venue wants live music, it needs to make the best use of its' space, pretty much on a nightly basis. I suspect ASCAP saw what their potential was, rather than what they were actually doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Notes_Norton Posted August 30, 2016 Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 Sounds like good money for some lawyers to me. I think technically the stage cleaner would be responsible IF and I mean IF the contract between the stage cleaner and the stage owner was airtight enough. Personally, while I like to see songwriters get money for their songs, I don't think ASCAP distributes them properly and I also think ASCAP does as much harm as good at the local live music level. But I'm looking at it from a musician's point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Notes_Norton Posted August 30, 2016 Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 I read that after 1922 it is 75 years after the songwriter dies. But I'd check that out before I banked on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Notes_Norton Posted August 30, 2016 Members Share Posted August 30, 2016 I have no problem with race or ethnic songs, as long as they aren't insulting to that race or ethnicity. I wouldn't sing songs that insult doctors, teachers, electricians or other trades either {with the possible exception of lawyers and politicians (wink/grin)} . But something non-specific and light-hearted like Mose Allison's 'Your Mind Is On Vacation (And Your Mouth Is Working Overtime' is OK with me because it doesn't sing about anybody or any group in particular. I play to have fun, not to hurt anyone's feelings. Notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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