Ever tried to "clone" the sound of a vintage recording?

[rasputin1963]

Have you ever tried to "clone" the sound of a vintage recording?

 

ie., try to make a new recording sound like a much older one? Did you come close? What specific difficulties did you face?

 

 

I'm thinking of how, say, Amy Winehouse's latest CD, BACK TO BLACK, does a good job of emulating the sound of mid-1960's R&B. Her contralto voice is not unlike that of the early-60's Brit-diva, Helen Shapiro. Some of these cuts could be slipped into an 60's/Oldies broadcast with most of the audience being none-the-wiser.

 

Swing-Out Sister's song "Let The Sun Shine" sounds remarkably like an old Fifth Dimension production.

 

Also, there is another young contemporary British artist calling herself April March, who is doing an amazing job of sounding like those old French-language, Petula Clark, "yeh-yeh" 45's circa 1963--67. Even the mixes themselves have a funny vintage-sounding EQ and idiosyncratic M/S stereo treatment. Her recent CD was called CHROMINANCE DECODER. (whatever that means). Very stylish and well worth a listen.

 

And then many of us can remember that curious album recorded by Todd Rundgren in which he recorded covers of old Beach Boys and Beatles records... they were not so much "homages" as much as they were pure emulations, like channeling a spirit... I think Rundgren, always the techno-wunderkind, did it mainly just to show he could.... the tour-de-force.

 

How about you? Have you ever tried to precisely cop the feel and production sound of a vintage recording? Was it easy?

 

What aspects of 1950's and 60's records could never be duplicated today, no matter how hard one tried?

[UstadKhanAli]

No, I've never done this, although I'd be interested in hearing techniques on how to do this. The closest I do is to make a certain instrument have a feel like something else, like crushing the snot out of a piano with an RNLA to make it sound like a Beatles song, or to use a wah-wah guitar through a vintage-sounding tube amp recorded with a tube mic through a Neve mic preamp to evoke a sound of yesteryear. But not the whole song. I've never been asked to do that so far, so I'm not sure how I would go about doing that...I'd hafta go meditate on that...

[Lee Knight]

I haven't.

 

I do reference my large catalog of musical memories for inspiration though. More than most I think. I'm always thinking in terms of "It needs Paul Kossoff here", or "We need the Frankenstien cardboard drum intro", or "Let's do the dry Bill Withers thing".

 

But it is always from memory. I'm not so concerned with getting it right as getting something interesting and cool. The memory catalog serves only as a jump start.

 

I dod't think I'd be very good at emulating a production...

[boosh]

I recorded two old Gheezers on acoustic jazz guitars once. One of them sang and he had an old voice. I mean,.. just like guys from the 1920s sounded like.

 

I recorded their guitars DI(piezos) and used an SM 58 for vocals.

 

After that I used GuitarRig on their guitartracks and the whole song just sounded like it was recorded in the 1940s.

[your ad here!]

Here's one I did:

 

http://www.myspace.com/realnowheremen

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

How vintage?

 

Here the offical press photo as appeared in the Bedrock Chronicle,

 

 

showing me conducting the orchestral work "Yabba Dabba Dooo" opus nr. 1 at its premiere.

This was, and still is the very first tone composed ever, and is today a very vintage sound,

and my original handwriting is exhibited in the Guggenheim Museum Venice, in Italy.

The first recording, which took place at this premiere, and was engraving on a three, was

demolished in the very first, quasi primal battle of human kind, an conflict with an orchestra

from the neighbour village, about two days north east of here in a swamp, now called Berlin.

 

.

[Lee Knight]

You minimalist!

[Synonym Music]

Ugh, cloning. It's not enough that I should have my own sound, but also emulate others?

[BATCAT]

 

I'm thinking of how, say, Amy Winehouse's latest CD, BACK TO BLACK , does a good job of emulating the sound of mid-1960's R&B. Her contralto voice is not unlike that of the early-60's Brit-diva, Helen Shapiro. Some of these cuts could be slipped into an 60's/Oldies broadcast with most of the audience being none-the-wiser.

 

 

While the arrangements and musical style reming me lot of 60's R&B, I find the production on that sounds extremely modern.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

You minimalist!

 

No, me dualist! Have always the option to not play the note!

 

 

 

.

[Lee Flier]

Another engineer friend of mine and I tried it just as an exercise. We put a couple of early Beatles songs up in Pro Tools, then tried to overdub each part over the original, mimicing the sound as precisely as we could, then remove the original to see how close we got. Mind you this was in an old analog studio with very decent equipment, and it was about 10 years ago. So we had a great sounding room, good mics, old Trident console, real EMT plate reverb, tape delay, a Fairchild compressor, etc. as well as an Epiphone Casino and several vintage amps. We got pretty darned close really. No doubt it would've been more of a challenge if we didn't have all that.

[BATCAT]

Another engineer friend of mine and I tried it just as an exercise. We put a couple of early Beatles songs up in Pro Tools, then tried to overdub each part over the original, mimicing the sound as precisely as we could, then remove the original to see how close we got. Mind you this was in an old analog studio with very decent equipment, and it was about 10 years ago. So we had a great sounding room, good mics, old Trident console, real EMT plate reverb, tape delay, a Fairchild compressor, etc. as well as an Epiphone Casino and several vintage amps. We got pretty darned close really. No doubt it would've been more of a challenge if we didn't have all that.

 

Fetishist!

[Lee Flier]

:lol:

 

Yeah, I know, and here I was making fun of that sample libary. But like I said, it was just an exercise. Never intended for public release!

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Ugh, cloning. It's not enough that I should have my own sound, but also emulate others?

 

 

I believe it's a legitimate question because someone who is, for example, creating a song for a film set in the 1950s might need to do this.

 

I don't have much interest in "cloning" the whole sound of, say, fifty years ago, although I'd certainly love to hear how people approach this just because I always love to learn more about audio/techniques of yesteryear. Many techniques and equipment of yesteryear, after all, can be applied to today's recordings to enhance creativity and sonic quality.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Well, Lee's and Ken's post above just reminded me, that the whole advertising business I serve, and also the few film soundtracks I produce, are nothing more then cloning whatever vintage idea the client is asking for.

 

There is seldom a commission where the creative director, or the movie director is asking for something fresh and original. Also the pop artists are rather asking for clich

[rasputin1963]

Barring a full-scale replication of the now-razed GOLD STAR STUDIOS of the Hollywood of the early 60's, I wonder how one would go about replicating the sound of a Phil Spector record from his golden years....

 

He hired many, many musicians to play and sing simultaneously, but then recorded them in monophonic. And, although the records were in mono, one can still hear them on CD today (still in mono, per Spector's insistence) and get an amazing illusion of depth along the "Z-axis", as it were.

 

With those early-60's records..... even the better stereo CAPITOL label records, I can never get a sense of where the room's natural reverb ended--- and where it might have been supported by Plate or other such "artificial" reverbs of the day....

 

Also part of the sound of quite a number of 1950's and early-60's pop records is the sound of them creating a fairly nasty, strident "blat" sound as they occasionally "pegged" their UV meters...

[steveg]

How vintage? Here the offical press photo as appeared in the Bedrock Chronicle, showing me conducting the orchestral work "Yabba Dabba Dooo" opus nr. 1 at its premiere. This was, and still is the very first tone composed ever, and is today a very vintage sound, and my original handwriting is exhibited in the Guggenheim Museum Venice, in Italy. The first recording, which took place at this premiere, and was engraving on a three, was demolished in the very first, quasi primal battle of human kind, an conflict with an orchestra from the neighbour village, about two days north east of here in a swamp, now called Berlin. .

 

Oh you think you are so cool!! Well I can top that in my emulation of the sound of the first life forms on Earth, it is called The Ameoba Dance and DNA shuffle

[Phil O'Keefe]

If this topic interests you, go find a copy of Todd Rundgren's Faithful LP, or the recent Matthew Sweet / Susanna Hoffs Under The Covers Vol. 1.

 

Every so often, I'll try to do a "faithful" cover, just for laughs. It's a great exercise, and you can learn a heck of a lot by trying it. It's great for the listening / ear training skills.

[Lucky #9]

How vintage? Here the offical press photo as appeared in the Bedrock Chronicle, showing me conducting the orchestral work "Yabba Dabba Dooo" opus nr. 1 at its premiere. .

 

Angelo: One of your musicians looks to be smoking the first bong.

[boosh]

 

I think that's my great-great-great-great grandfather "Booshi Umbababa Wooshi".

[John Sayers]

Another engineer friend of mine and I tried it just as an exercise. We put a couple of early Beatles songs up in Pro Tools, then tried to overdub each part over the original, mimicing the sound as precisely as we could, then remove the original to see how close we got. Mind you this was in an old analog studio with very decent equipment, and it was about 10 years ago. So we had a great sounding room, good mics, old Trident console, real EMT plate reverb, tape delay, a Fairchild compressor, etc. as well as an Epiphone Casino and several vintage amps. We got pretty darned close really. No doubt it would've been more of a challenge if we didn't have all that.

 

yeah - it's a shame those old fashioned studios have so much downtime.

I was told by a guest DJ at the Red Bull Music academy that we'll never know how they did it back then because all the people that did it are either dead or in a retirement home .

[Synonym Music]

 

I believe it's a legitimate question because someone who is, for example, creating a song for a film set in the 1950s might need to do this. I don't have much interest in "cloning" the whole sound of, say, fifty years ago, although I'd certainly love to hear how people approach this just because I always love to learn more about audio/techniques of yesteryear. Many techniques and equipment of yesteryear, after all, can be applied to today's recordings to enhance creativity and sonic quality.

 

 

I hear ya.

 

Records from today with a considerably older type of production do get under my skin as trying way too hard, though. It does not add any magic.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

 

Do you mean Mr. Pfuri, the player with the large metallic bong, or Mr. Kniri, the oboist with the small brown primal clarinet?

 

Here some original stone age video's from back in the Sack'n Roll times:

 

Summertime Blues

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3aqdIgcFA8

 

Midnight Special

 

Margie

 

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[rasputin1963]

 

If this topic interests you, go find a copy of Todd Rundgren's Faithful LP, or the recent Matthew Sweet / Susanna Hoffs Under The Covers Vol. 1 .

 

 

As a follow-up, Phil, I did go out and buy UNDER THE COVERS, VOL.1

 

Wow...it's amazing. Now these covers-- I'm especially thinking of their "Monday, Monday" here--- have new, state-of-the art acoustics/production going on, but the way these two folks sing and deliver the song is amazingly true to the 1966 TM&TP recording...

 

Often, when younger acts cover an older record, they cannot resist injecting some element of smart-arsed tongue-in-cheek parody to the sound. I am thinking especially of some modern remakes of CARPENTERS and NEIL DIAMOND hits. But Matthew Sweet & Susanna Hoffs sing "Monday, Monday" with total reverence and fidelity to the spirit of the original hit. Neat! It sounds great! :phil: :phil: :phil:

[halljams]

I think U-47's into tube pres are an absolute must.

The sound of the 47 is so distinct and important to old sounds.

For ribbons you could use the AEA R84 or 92 for brighter sound.

Then you need a good live room, mic'ed bass and maby mono drums.

And.............. Tape. You could probably get away with mastering to 1/2 inch to fatten the bottom.