A Brief Moment of "Enlightenment?"...

I`m in the car driving home from work, trying to get into the Chirstmas spirit and turn on the radio which I rarely do... some Led Zep tune comes on and I`m immediately drawn into how different this song sounds compared to the modern rock songs before and after it.

At first, I was disappointed with the overall sound. There was a lack of clarity and presence but the groove.... damn! Its still incredible and not something you hear anymore. (IMO, Pink Floyds Dark Side sounds incredible for the time it was done... anyway... Getting back to Zep...)

There is a lack of detail in these mixes and a lack of "in your face" tone but I think thats what gives it that classic sound. Theres a lot left to ones imagination. The bass is there with the drums but its very much apart of the overall sound of the instrumentation where today, bass and kick is given such a dominant role. Even the guitars... they were loud but they weren`t screaming in your face... and there was also a lack of that pumping sound...

Then an older Pearl Jam song comes on from Ten and again, the sound of the band is not obnoxious. Its not overly bright or in your face. It sounds good. So I`m wondering... is this part of the solution to todays radio? Mixing the songs with more to ones imagination... leaving instruments a little more in the background, surrounding them with more space...

Or maybe the station just wasn`t pumping the crap out of these songs?

I think you're on to something. Maybe there is some depth, nuance, etc. that exists here. And it's not completely squashed in the mixdown process. But I think a lot of it is simply chemistry as well.

Also, I think this is your prettiest avatar yet.

Well... several different things going on here.

First off, the thing about Zep is that their records didn't sound like anyone else's at the time they were made, either. The big trend at the time was toward making the room as dead as possible, close miking everything, making everything very dry and adding in such "ambience" as you wanted in the mix.

Zep went in completely the opposite direction, using only a couple of distant mics on the drums and recording in mostly very reverberant spaces. And Page of course was a master producer as well as being the primary songwriter and musician... John Paul Jones too had formidable arrangement and production skills.

So, I think what made those guys special is they were completely bucking the trends and not following the herd, on ANYthing. Their sound was totally unique then, and still is, because they were seriously paying attention to every part of the process from writing to arranging to recording, and doing it their own way. There are lots of people to this day who try to emulate their recording and production techniques, and most of them fail.

But aside from Zep... yeah, most people nowadays fill up every available space in an arrangement. A lot of the time the musicians don't even know what the arrangement will be when they track the parts - they just track them through the whole song or a portion of the song and the producer or mix engineer decides later whether it stays or goes, and at what points. Kinda hard to turn in a dynamic performance that way - in that context musicians tend to either just "go to 11" all the time or play it safe and boring.

Then they proceed to compress the living crap out of everything, if not at the mix stage, at the mastering stage. And if not at the mastering stage, the radio station does it with a broadcast limiter.

Anything prior to 1998 or so wouldn't have had that degree of compression, nor did people have the ability to do non linear multitrack editing to the degree they can now, which meant that the musician was in a lot more control of the arrangement and generally had to turn in complete takes, and have some clue what the end result would be. So yeah, there's all sorts of opportunity for abuse now, and most people seize those opportunities.

That's true. With all the distance micing and whatnot, Zeppelin sounded a lot more dimensional, and certainly a lot different, than other recorded bands. They have some of the best rock recordings I've ever heard.

...and she has big tetas.

She does, and she looks great that way, but I just think, maybe because it's not as bimbo-y and *obvious* or maybe just because she is pretty or it's a nice pose, she seems more appealing to me.

Sorry. Back to the discussion at hand. Distance micing. Chemistry between band members. Recording and capturing a sense of space.

Agreed. She's really pretty without looking phony, and the pose and outfit is sexy, and yet classy and leaving plenty to the imagination. Nice job!

Yep. Not to mention: working out the arrangement BEFORE hitting the "record" button. Playing complete takes with a few punch-ins rather than comping every phrase from a zillion incomplete takes. And not compressing the crap out of the mix.

There, now you can all go make hit records!

Agreed. She's really pretty without looking phony, and the pose and outfit is sexy, and yet classy and leaving plenty to the imagination. Nice job! Yep. Not to mention: working out the arrangement BEFORE hitting the "record" button. Playing complete takes with a few punch-ins rather than comping every phrase from a zillion incomplete takes. And not compressing the crap out of the mix.

Funny but both of your quotes can be applied to making a good recording.

200% agreed.

And speaking as a photographer: I don't think her, umm, dueling banjos are necessarily big...they're just at the right angle with the right light.

I've been pretty immersed in Zeppelin recordings the past 6 months or so. There was a time I didn't get it. I did to some extent... but their tendency to go their own route sometimes left me wanting.

I was wrong.

The distance miking is a huge factor. The unique Page tones are a factor. The quirky JPJisms are a factor (melotron, recorder arrangements, clav, synth, Rhodes, mando, etc.) The blues singer from the planet Sex is a factor... But the biggest factor is the sound they made together in the room. Together. Each guy has such a distinctive voice and the insight into how to combine for maximum effect.

The very fact that Page would leave mistakes in, even in an overdubbed part of his, shows how unimportant they felt the individual was, and how all important the unity was. The thing was that final song, not the parts or individuals. The always saw the thing in the distance and worked toward it.

Listening to the rehearsal tapes of them working out Stairway was a mind blower for me. All together working toward the thing.

And another thing...

My 12 year old daughter can't keep her hands off of my early Beatles CDs. She's a normal 12 year old, likes Panic at the Disco, Fall Out Buy, My Chemical Romance, and now lately Chris Brown...

But when we get in the car, and all those CDs are in there, she grabs the Beatles. Every freakin' time. I love the Beatles and I'm like... let's change it up. Why? Why does she dig it so, sire? How can she listen over and over and over. It doesn't sound as "good" as Panic. The guitars are a little squanky sometimes, you can't hear all the drums on the early stuff... so why?

Cause it's great music and... it is presented in a way that lasts. It is presented truthfully. Or at least oodles closer to the truth than what's out today. Sometimes being hit over the head with a brickwall limiter and a close mic is fun, like downing 4 or 5 shots in a row is fun. Fun while it lasted, but it won't last long.

Disclaimer: As some know, I use all the dirty computer trickery on my clients. And I wish I didn't have to. Looking forward to getting something real in again.

I notice this recording disparity a lot. When I load songs on my ipod it's really noticeable. New songs are very loud mixes with everything in your face. The older stuff is in some cases half the volume that the new stuff is, even with my automatic volume adjuster on. The older mixes might be lacking a bit in bottom end but the imaging, dynamics and "breathing room" for everything is so much better.

I just purchased the Led Zep "Mothership" 2 CDs and DVD. Listening to it in the car... Awesome...

Love the Led!

I don't play Zep all the time, but I they are easily my favorite rock recordings ever and my favorite band.

Remember the trapped in a car for 12 hours with the same album? Zep takes me there. I actually love zep, but I'm so tired of it. Ya know?

It doesn't have the timelessness I get from other stuff. Like I never get tired of James Brown, but I have grown weary of hearing Zep.

I humbly suggest that part of the enlightenment you should draw from this is that, like most everyone else on the planet, you've become (at least to some degree) fixated on a certain era of music. You may think "I know what I like," but in fact you like what you know. Which is fine, of course, but there's more good music and good recordings out there today than ever before in history, you just have to wade through a lot more crap to find it.

Speaking specifically to Zep, there are few people alive who loved them more than I did at the time they existed, or have performed Zep cover tunes on stage more times than I have. However, I can honestly say that if I never hear (or play) Zep again that would be OK with me as (a) one cannot search the car radio for more than a moment without hearing some Zep "classic" and (b) there's an infinite amount of great new music to listen to if you can open your mind to it.

Speaking of myself, not you. Took me a while to let the old go and embrace the new. It's not better or worse, it's simply different.

Terry D.

You may think "I know what I like," but in fact you like what you know. Which is fine, of course, but there's more good music and good recordings out there today than ever before in history, you just have to wade through a lot more crap to find it.

I agree, there's still a lot of great music out there today. But I don't think the specific point being made has much to do with being fixated on a certain era.

Well I don't see the need to get that extreme about it. I didn't burn out on Zep back in the day, so I still love hearing them now. And I also love a lot of new stuff. I don't see the need to do all this categorization and making excuses for why you like or don't like something.

Again, the particular thing that Ernest is referring to - the overcompression, frequent lack of real arrangements, etc. - I don't think that's "simply different" - it IS worse.

There are plenty of recordings being made today where that isn't the case. But as with every era, there are some annoying trends in production that 20 years from now people are going to look back on and say "My gawd, that was horrible." Like the 80's gated reverb thing - sounded great on a few records, sounded terrible as a "default" way of working and ruined a lot of records that would've been great otherwise.

No doubt there are some people who think ALL of that 80's stuff sounds great today, but I don't know too many. And I don't think too many people will look back fondly on some of the techniques that are being done to death in the 00's. That doesn't mean anybody's "stuck in an era" nor does it mean there are no recordings being made today that are good. I get a little tired of hearing this dismissal any time someone wonders whether a particular recording or production technique is really a "best practice."

I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that they all had a background of playing live. So when they went into the studio, nothing felt tentative. Zep knew how to present themselves to an audience, and they did that in the studio.

Part of the problem with some of today's music is that it's harder and harder to find venues for playing live. As I've mentioned before, it used to be the purpose of the studio was to capture what you played live. Now the purpose of playing live is to reproduce what you came up with in the studio.

I feel my best recordings are ones that have a basis in live performance, not studio composition. The studio composition ones work great for soundtracks, but that type of music is supposed to stay in the background and not be too compelling, lest it compete with the visuals.

If I never hear "Stairway to Heaven" again, I'm probably OK with that.

I haven't heard it since the 80s all the way through and that was a vexation, no matter how much I loved it in the day.

But some other stuff, particularly from Houses and Graffiti, which I haven't heard to death still sound fresh and great to me... even though I have those albums and listened to them plenty -- but they weren't played to death on the radio and on every background music system in the same fashion -- and I had already stopped listening in large part to the rapidly ossifying rock FM of the 70s.

Hi Lee! Hope you're doing well.

OK, so you're saying let's talk about the production, that's cool. Some folks in the thread did widen the scope to performance and I was responding to them also. IMHO, it's pretty hard for almost anyone to ignore the material/performance and form an opinion on the production, but I suppose we can try.

I make no "excuses" for anything. Just saying I loved Zep at one time but then I got sick of them. If you'd told me that, in my 50's I'd still be bombarded with the same music I heard in my teens/20's I'd have laughed. I don't think at the time anyone could have anticipated todays "million channels of nothing" situation where cable TV and radio literally have to play everything ever made in order to fill all the time slots.

And then you add in all the countless internet radio channels.....

You're free to like what you want, just as I am. You (so far as I know) tend to prefer "classic rock," meaning Beatles, Stones, Zep, etc. Perhaps you listen to all sorts of other things too, but these are the bands I've sen you talk about.

Lately, I'm listening to a lot of techno and frankly, there's a lot to like about it. It's nuanced and creative if you pay attention. It's not simply the disco of today, though of course it's generally quite danceable.

Now, see, you can't really say that. When you DO say that, you mean one of two things: (1) I don't like it, or (2) I predict that this won't stand the test of time.

In case (1), well, everyone has opinions and I'd point out that the legions of club kids and MP3 listeners don't really prioritize dynamic range a great deal in their choice of music.

If (2), then we'll see. I don't think either you or I are prophets.

Good point on gated reverb, it was way overdone. Kind of like phase shifting and all the other fads of the time.

However, you could say the same thing about falsetto vocals, high pitched screaming (today we have "cookie monster" I guess), long guitar solos, big hair, etc. "Journey," "Warrant," etc. were once multi-platinum kings of the hill but now they sound, dare I say it, somewhat ridiculous.

Very few bands / recordings stand the test of time. Most music, let's face it, is disposable entertainment. About the only thing I can safely predict is that more new things will come along that you and I don't like, and they'll be immensely popular for some period of time.

Oh, and people will bitch about them on message boards and long for the good old days.

But people DO get stuck in eras, it's a fact. Do you know many people in their 30's or 40's or 50's even who like Techno or House or Hip Hop or even Britney? Popular music is extremely age focused, and the recording techniques are very much a part of that. If you listen to popular dance songs today, you'll hear a lot of pitch shifted vocals, "autotune" bent and twisted into a performance statement.

So, I disagree with your main point, I think. I don't believe there is some "best practice" that floats above fashion, other than to agree with you that history shows that trends come and go and therefore the safest path (in the long run) might be moderation.

Speaking of moderation, I'd better go do some in OJ.

T.

People do get stuck. And some don't. Look at my collection and you'll find a lot of new. I buy CDs weekly. New stuff, old stuff. So to appreciate something in Zeppelin that might be missing in most new music doesn't necessarily mean the person digging Zep is stuck.

If you're burnt out on them as you say you are, that indicates that is your perception and not the music. Nothing wrong with never wanting to hear it again. I certainly get that. But, if you assume people that still enjoy it are stuck...

Don't mistakenly paint others with your perceptions.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What intrigues me the most about dance music is that while as with any genre of music there's the usual quota of disposable crap, those who are pushing the limits are doing so in ways that are extremely creative.

I just picked up Paul Kalkbrenner's soundtrack to Berlin Calling. Granted it's a soundtrack, so you'd expect it to have more variations than a more "focused" CD. But Kalkbrenner uses it as a vehicle to take electronic music in a variety of directions that fascinate me and sound rich and varied. And it's not overcompressed

I'm also really intrigued with the cross-fertilization between dance music and "world" music, like Zouk or Soca. They have a beneficial influence on each other, although at the moment, the flow seems to be more in the direction of world music co-opting electronic music than the other way around.

As to Zep, I know what Terry means...I was SO involved in that whole scene when it was happening that it has a "been there, done that" vibe to me. I am a music junkie and I'm always looking for a different, more powerful high! I hardly ever listen to Beatles, Stones, etc. any more BUT when I do, I always enjoy it. To my ears, there's still no drum sound that can compete with "When the Levee Breaks." And Page's production, and use of guitar textures, is masterful. But I already know that, so I'm more interested in finding the NEXT Jimmy Page who puts yet another different twist on things.

Yeah, that's pretty much all I was saying. The second guessing of other people's thoughts and perceptions and motivations always seems like a pointless exercise at best, and insulting at worst.

And then the other side of musical Enlightenment. I was watching/listening to MTV2 or whatever it is with my daughter, the one with music, and on came All American Rejects. I'm not supposed to like this, right? I'm stuck in the past and all. Now, if I don't mention that they're overworked in Pro Tools I look naive so OK, I know. I hear it.

Now it struck me as I heard this new MTV super new hit song thing. This is music that could only be created in Pro Tools, etc. And not in an obvious way. I'm checking the editing as I'm listening thinking, "That's pretty clever the way he turned that hook upside down and used it to tag the chorus hook", or whatever.

Good is good. And it's not always the old model. The old model being, great band at their peak in great studio etc. As Knobs and Craig point out, "What about Techno?!?!?"

Heck yeah. I've loved Electronica since I first heard a fresh release by Jean Michel Jarre called Oxygene. I later fell heavy in the 90's. Right into Aphex Twin, Achteure and other inheritors of the flame.

So then, mention Zeppelin, dig Zeppelin, and you're stuck in the past? hmmm.