Catalyzed polyurethane

[GilmourD]

I'm still not buying it.. I guess I'm just not a believer in the whole "tone woods make a huge difference on electrics" concept. Essentially, this all boils down to the wood. Less paint, or thinner paint, or less solids in the paint would indeed allow the wood to be in a more natural state than more paint, thicker paint and paint with more solids.. That natural state would allow the wood to have more influence on the tone of the guitar. Here is where it falls apart for me though. I don't think tone woods do much to influence electric tones. Think about it.. In a Strat, you've got pickups mounted on a plastic pickguard . On a Gibson, you've got pickups mounted in plastic pickup rings. Anyone that can own one of those 2 guitars and have the audacity to think that the paint is where the problem lies deserves to be thrown in a pond with no snorkel..

 

The best test I did was with my EVH Frankenstein. Franky was born as a black Fernandes LE-2, basically Fernandes' version of the '62 Strat. It was my brother's guitar at first and I already had a black Strat, so he stripped it, changing nothing else. The change in tone was actually breathtaking. The original finish was a fairly thick coat of black poly. For a while it was just bare wood and then when I turned it into my Frankenstein I painted it was acrylic lacquer in some REALLY thin coats (as can be told by the chips on the edges).

 

I think that a thick finish is too stiff to vibrate. If a guitar's finished with a thin coat of poly, that's fine by me. I tend to like acrylic lacquer since it isn't as hard and stiff as poly and I can pick it up at any auto parts store.

[RaVenCAD]

 

Okay - so you hit the strings, they vibrate -> pickups -> cable, amp, etc. Are you also implying the resonant qualities of the wood have nothing to do with it? Because that's not quite true...and if the paint affects the wood, then it is going to affect the tone of the guitar. ANYBODY in this thread who has not done an A/B test between the same guitar finished vs. unfinished is talking out of their ass (regardless of which direction they stand in).

 

 

As I said before, the net effect coming out of the speaker is no different. It might feel different to your hands, it might resonate differently, and to a piezo it might sound different.. But to a magnetic pickup, it'll be virtually the same. And by the time your amp gets finished with it, you'll never notice a difference.

[robbyg]

:poke:This is my choice! And I spread it with a 12ax7 tube taped to an EL34 that came outta the radio of a soviet sub sunk off the coast of Estabon's house . Talk about creamy...

[Ryan Trevisol]

:poke: I switched from Alder to Ash on my strat, it was definitely brighter. Definitely had a sharper attack, and was just clearer. Everything but the body stayed the same.

 

I also switched from a thick poly finish to an Acrylic Lacquer with a Nitro topcoat.

[BlueJames]

 

As I said before, the net effect coming out of the speaker is no different. It might feel different to your hands, it might resonate differently, and to a piezo it might sound different.. But to a magnetic pickup, it'll be virtually the same. And by the time your amp gets finished with it, you'll never notice a difference.

 

 

This is false. If the guitar is sustaining more because the wood resonance is less muted, the pickup will transmit that increase in sustain.

 

If you took a brass bell and coated it in a thin coat of nitro and took another brass bell and dipped it into poly, those bells would sound different, acoustically, miked and if you put a magnetic pickup in the bell.

 

There's no way in hell you can coat a guitar body in a thick coat of plastic and not have it's vibrations muted to some degree. Your argument fails because it assumes that just because YOU can't hear a difference, that there is no difference.

 

The difference in tone was proven and documented in an issue of Tonequest a while back.

[RaVenCAD]

Tonequest? Is this some sort of cork sniffer almanac or something? Look, I'm not disputing there would be a sustain change (read back a few posts, I mentioned it in one..), but the tone that is sustaining longer isn't going to a night and day difference. It's just to be very subtle and by the time it gets processed, it's going to virtually undetectable.. Comparing bells and guitars is pointless, because a bell is an acoustic instrument. Nothing about a bell requires electronic interpretation of an electrical current.

[Guitzilla]

 

Tonequest? Is this some sort of cork sniffer almanac or something? Look, I'm not disputing there would be a sustain change (read back a few posts, I mentioned it in one..), but the tone that is sustaining longer isn't going to a night and day difference. It's just to be very subtle and by the time it gets processed, it's going to virtually undetectable.. Comparing bells and guitars is pointless, because a bell is an acoustic instrument. Nothing about a bell requires electronic interpretation of an electrical current.

 

 

 

Wouldn't a difference in sustain affect the tone..at least to a degree? Couldn't some overtones ring out more? Would this change the way that we perceive the tone? I don't know. I'm just throwing it out to see what everyone else thinks.

 

Brian

[lowbrow]

I would love to see one of the engineers we have on here develop a sophisticated modeling system to solve for the differential equation that we could then use to quantify (to one degree or another) the effect of wood, finish, etc on the overall frequency response of a electric guitar. Sadly, I have no $$$ to contribute to the lifetime grant it would probably take to fund such an undertaking.

[Guitar_stringer]

Wouldn't a difference in sustain affect the tone..at least to a degree? Couldn't some overtones ring out more? Would this change the way that we perceive the tone? I don't know. I'm just throwing it out to see what everyone else thinks. Brian

 

We have a winner!

[etawful]

 

I can't say anything regarding the original topic of the thread, but somehow I gotta agree with RaVenCAD. As a matter of fact, I was always wondering if I should open a thread about how tonewoods affect the signal of an electric guitar when the pickups are transmitting a magnetic signal only. I could never manage the guts to open it, though, since you folks are a hostile bunch of people and would probably flame me away as a troll without even replying properly to the topic. I mean, it just doesn't add up; there just doesn't seem to be a logical explanation for it. For all I know (and I'm quite UNknowledgeable in this issue), the pickups are converting the vibration of the strings into a signal. So where does the tonewood or the finishes come in? Someone here mentioned "Vibrational Feedback", and that could be true; but then think about it: the pickup isn't catching any sort of EQ-ing...IT'S ONLY PICKING UP THE VIBRATIONS! And how does the EQ change/boost resulting from the "Vibrational Feedback" get into the string's vibration? Really this makes no sense to me. Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to argue with any of you, because you guys are atleast a 1000 times more knowledgeable than I am. I'm just confused and a li'l curious about all this.

 

 

I happen to agree with you. Now, even if it's argued that the wood can vibrate more with a different finish . . . wood isn't magnetic. Pickups can't detect wood vibration, only that of a magnetic substance.

 

If this "vibrational feedback" theory were true, then, at most you'd hear a difference in sustain.

[Wyatt]

I think way too much hype is made about finish.

 

It used to be that Nitro let the wood "breath" and poly didn't, well, that's not true, polyurethane, and even polyester, isn't airtight, plastic is porous. Then it was about vibration, well I have a '70's Strat with a heavy poly finish that is easily as resonate as any of Strat out there, regardless of finish.

 

I take the "test tastes" with a grain of salt. A persons perception is relative. Every single time...every single time...someone plays their guitar it will sound different than before, but your ears never have a constant reference point, what you hear right before you plug in and play affects how you hear tone. So, when you A-B two guitars together, you can instantly hear differences because they are the reference for each other, you add another 10 guitars to the mix...and they all end up sounding alike.

 

Guitar companies use poly because it's bomb-proof. It allows a high-gloss finish that Nitro can never hold (because Nitro shrinks) and it doesn't wear through. It keeps the guitar looking new longer.

[Electric Blues]

That thing about EVERYONE wanting a nitro finish on their guitar is complete and utter nonsense. I personally don

[abrasive]

^And that was the inspiration for my Squier project.

Isn't it enough to have a nicer looking, and maybe nicer feeling, guitar?

Or is that type of vanity frowned upon by a group of people who, collectively, don't seem to have a problem spending thousands of dollars on a chunk of wood, some primitive electronics, and a couple pieces of potmetal?

 

If you don't like doing stuff like this, I suggest you don't. In the end, anything like this has to be done because you enjoy doing things yourself. It's almost always easier, and often times cheaper, to just buy what looks good to you than it is to build it.

 

What's with the need to over-think and micro-analyze everything. I'm stripping all the black off my Strat and painting it red because I want a red Strat, and I like doing stuff myself. Isn't that enough of a reason?

[lowbrow]

I'm stripping all the black off my Strat and painting it red because I want a red Strat, and I like doing stuff myself. Isn't that enough of a reason?

 

Yup!

[jerry_picker]

UN-polymerized is much worse, believe me.

[Electric Blues]

^And that was the inspiration for my Squier project. Isn't it enough to have a nicer looking, and maybe nicer feeling, guitar? Or is that type of vanity frowned upon by a group of people who, collectively, don't seem to have a problem spending thousands of dollars on a chunk of wood, some primitive electronics, and a couple pieces of potmetal? If you don't like doing stuff like this, I suggest you don't. In the end, anything like this has to be done because you enjoy doing things yourself. It's almost always easier, and often times cheaper, to just buy what looks good to you than it is to build it. What's with the need to over-think and micro-analyze everything. I'm stripping all the black off my Strat and painting it red because I want a red Strat, and I like doing stuff myself. Isn't that enough of a reason?

 

Sure! Just changing the color was enough for me and I doing this kind of stuff.

 

But I had to clear up there was no earth shaking, "Oh my God" tone change from it, like many claim from a different finish.

 

BTW, send my a link to your Squier project. I love seeing how they turned out.

[abrasive]

Yeah, I got that. I was just commenting on all the "tone" related talk that permeates through this board. My point was just that for me, like you, aesthetic reasons are enough. I don't need to make up a bunch of imaginary woo to justify refinishing a guitar to myself.

 

I haven't started a thread yet. I'm taking pictures as I go, and I'll post it all once I'm done to keep it all neat. I always like seeing a completed project all at once as oppose to going back to a thread every few days for a couple months until it's finally finished.

[GilmourD]

I happen to agree with you. Now, even if it's argued that the wood can vibrate more with a different finish . . . wood isn't magnetic. Pickups can't detect wood vibration, only that of a magnetic substance. If this "vibrational feedback" theory were true, then, at most you'd hear a difference in sustain.

 

 

The thing everybody seems to miss or ignore (which I'm sure the same people will ignore this reply of mine since I'm using logic which disagrees with them) is the vibrations themselves.

 

Yes, pickups only pick up the vibrations of the string.

 

However, the wood changes how the string itself vibrates. If you built four Strat bodies (one Ash, one Alder, one Mahogany, and one Maple) and mounted the same exact neck, hardware, and pickups on them, they'd all sound different UNPLUGGED. That's because the strings vibrate differently with woods of different densities. The Mahogany will be mellower due to it being a bit softer, the Alder next with a fairly even frequency response, and the Ash a bit denser giving it a bit of a treble snap, and then the Maple being the hardest with the brightest tone.

 

Now that's unplugged... Ever notice that the unplugged tone tends to translate somewhat into the amplified tone? That's why you can take the same pickup and put it in multiple guitars and it'll sound great in some and kinda meh in others.

 

Also, simple laws of physics dictate how the mounting affects the sound, albeit somewhat marginal in difference. That's why a Tele with the bridge pickup mounted on a plastic plate or straight into the body (like the GE Smith) sounds TOTALLY different than your standard vintage Tele.

 

From my knowledge of physics, a plastic pickguard or pickup ring will pass the least effect of vibration directly to the pickups since it's the softest method of mounting pickups and the softer plastic acts like a shock absorber while a Tele bridge will pass vibration directly from the string and saddles to the pickup due to it being a stiff/dense metal plate that vibrates easily.

 

Now think of it... If the body is vibrating and the pickup itself is vibrating, doesn't that change it's relationship to the vibrating string? A vibrating string is moving back and forth.The body is vibrating back and forth. The vibrating pickup is moving back and forth.

 

Now take the waves of all of those vibrations from an oscilloscope and combine them. Waves are additive, which is why if you take two identical signals from separate sources and put them through the same speaker the total will be louder while if you flip one out of phase you'll end up with zero signal. The string, body, pickup, and everything else all vibrate differently even at the same frequency.

 

Take all of those and add them all up and you'll notice that different parts of the wave are increased and other parts are decreased. Thus you have your final tone.

[Electric Blues]

Yeah, I got that. I was just commenting on all the "tone" related talk that permeates through this board. My point was just that for me, like you, aesthetic reasons are enough. I don't need to make up a bunch of imaginary woo to justify refinishing a guitar to myself. I haven't started a thread yet. I'm taking pictures as I go, and I'll post it all once I'm done to keep it all neat. I always like seeing a completed project all at once as oppose to going back to a thread every few days for a couple months until it's finally finished.

I'll look forward to it!

[RaVenCAD]

I can't say anything regarding the original topic of the thread, but somehow I gotta agree with RaVenCAD. As a matter of fact, I was always wondering if I should open a thread about how tonewoods affect the signal of an electric guitar when the pickups are transmitting a magnetic signal only. I could never manage the guts to open it, though, since you folks are a hostile bunch of people and would probably flame me away as a troll without even replying properly to the topic. I mean, it just doesn't add up; there just doesn't seem to be a logical explanation for it. For all I know (and I'm quite UNknowledgeable in this issue), the pickups are converting the vibration of the strings into a signal. So where does the tonewood or the finishes come in? Someone here mentioned "Vibrational Feedback", and that could be true; but then think about it: the pickup isn't catching any sort of EQ-ing...IT'S ONLY PICKING UP THE VIBRATIONS! And how does the EQ change/boost resulting from the "Vibrational Feedback" get into the string's vibration? Really this makes no sense to me. Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to argue with any of you, because you guys are atleast a 1000 times more knowledgeable than I am. I'm just confused and a li'l curious about all this.

 

 

Here is how I understand the impact of wood on tone and sustain.. The string is plucked, causing the wood to vibrate along with the string. The more the wood vibrates, the longer the string will vibrate, thus the longer the note can be heard. This is what we call sustain. If the wood doesn't vibrate well, the sustain is reduced. Sustain is completely and utterly unrelated to the tone being produced by the string. Or, more to the point, the length of time the string vibrates does nothing to color the electrical signal being generated by the pickup and string interaction. When a string vibrates, it doesn't just move back and forth. It oscillates, at varying degrees up and down the string. The closer it is to the ends of the string, the tighter the oscillation, and the treble frequencies are most prominent. That's not to say they are louder, but the bass frequencies are much quieter. At no point does the wood have the ability to change that oscillation. All it can do is resonate with the string, thus giving the string sympathetic vibrations that prolong the strings vibration. Pickup position along the string has a drastically larger impact on the coloration of tone than the wood can.

 

[Bowen]

Here is how I understand the impact of wood on tone and sustain.. The string is plucked, causing the wood to vibrate along with the string. The more the wood vibrates, the longer the string will vibrate, thus the longer the note can be heard. This is what we call sustain. If the wood doesn't vibrate well, the sustain is reduced. Sustain is completely and utterly unrelated to the tone being produced by the string. Or, more to the point, the length of time the string vibrates does nothing to color the electrical signal being generated by the pickup and string interaction. When a string vibrates, it doesn't just move back and forth. It oscillates, at varying degrees up and down the string. The closer it is to the ends of the string, the tighter the oscillation, and the treble frequencies are most prominent. That's not to say they are louder, but the bass frequencies are much quieter. At no point does the wood have the ability to change that oscillation. All it can do is resonate with the string, thus giving the string sympathetic vibrations that prolong the strings vibration. Pickup position along the string has a drastically larger impact on the coloration of tone than the wood can.

 

Here is my theory, it may or may not be correct...

 

Think of the guitar as a energy system.

 

A string with motionless anchors vibrating at 440hz will continue at 440hz until the friction of stretching and relaxing reduces the amplitude of the vibration to zero. You will have very very long sustain and a pure waveform.

 

The anchors (nut and bridge) are not motionless though.

 

(This is simplified drastically) A string at 440hz vibrates the headstock (holding the nut) but the resonant frequency of the headstock is 500 hz. The 500hz headstock vibration will vibrate the nut. Now a heterodyne of 440 and 500hz signals is not going to have the same phase. The nut's vibration will induce a varying amplitude vibration in the string, and because of phase differences it will sometimes add to the heterodyne frequency amplitude or cancel from it. This is what we call tone. (an impure signal)

 

About sustain though. Any energy that makes the guitar vibrate comes from the string amplitude. (ignoring loud amps, etc.) When the string's amplitude is reduced the note decays. When the nut, bridge, or complete guitar are very massive (FR, Khaler, etc.) the energy in the string cannot vibrate the rest of the guitar as much and the waveform tends to be reflected from the anchors instead of vibrating the anchors. Much more sustain, less "tone".

 

IMO: A guitar that is louder acoustically (wood vibrating in sympathy or heterodyne with the strings) usually has more "tone" (good or bad) than a guitar that is quiet acoustically.

This does not translate to thinlines, hollow bodies or acoustics. Those get really complicated.

 

Edit: This completley ignores the effect of pickup magnetic pull, ambient noise, and inconsistent string mass (old, stretched).

[Pope on a Rope]

 

Seriously why was/is this even used on guitars? It took close to 2 weeks of sanding to strip my charvel. It was nearly 3mm thick in some spots. Automotive pain stripper didn't budge it, heat gun was a lot more effective but it's too easy to scorch the wood. I'm no tone snob but layering it on that thick can't be good.

 

 

It's only easy to scorch the wood if you do not take your time heat stripping. The heatgun must be constantly moving, you can't concentrate it on one spot for too long or you burn the finish and scorch the wood. Smoke and discoloratian indicate you are overheating. Minor scorching can just be sanded off.

 

Heat stripping requires a bit of patience to get things started. You only want to soften the finish enough to get your scraper under the paint. Then just move the heatgun up and down the path of the scraper. Once you get going the finish just peels right off in strips. When you get a feel for it it's the most efficient way of stripping a guitar with urethane or polyester finishes.

[zbasstringer]

 

I imagine it's used because it's cheap, durable, and looks nice. As for effect on tone... I can't even begin to speculate. I'd like to hear a detailed recording of a painted guitar and then the same guitar totally stripped of paint. Then I could tell if there's a difference.

 

 

Let me start out with saying, im honestly not bashing you in any way, just adding on. If you made the test a blind A/b test, that would work. My favorite saying was always "I dare you to close your eyes and tell me the difference". Needless to say, the guy saying there is a huge difference between maple and rosewood boards shut his mouth.

[Zappa74]

Tonequest? Is this some sort of cork sniffer almanac or something?

 

 

Tonequest does sound incredibly fruity. The only players that need to wory about a tone quest are pros that already know how to seriously play.

 

The majority of us dorks here should wory about playing and writing instead of how the material that's sprayed on their guitar's body affects the sound it makes.

[BlueJames]

Tonequest is cool, it's just guitar geeks reviewing artists and gear.:

 

http://www.tonequest.com/

 

For true corksniffery, you need to go to The Gear Page and hear the lawyers and accountants ramble on about PRSs and Two Rock amps.