question about orange drops

[iamthearm]

what is the real difference between a standard .22 or .47 microfarad capacitor and a sprague orange drop, besides size obviously?

[Ancient Mariner]

It's largely down to the insulator between the 2 layers of foil. Ceramic (like the small caps) is what it says. The ODs can be polypropylene or polystyrene. It gives slightly different handling of frequencies allegedly. I *think* I can hear a difference (more clarity with the OD) but it could be psychological.

[Johnny Z]

I thought you ment ACID

Some caps function differently in filtering freq's, it's really hard to say whats best for any guitar, some guys are going for the grease pit caps and I think they are only fooling them selves, but what ever. Orange caps do a good job but so do the cheaper wafer caps I usually use. If you're playing fine tectured chord or melody passages maybe there is a best cap to use, but for raw metal and most rock guitarist I doubt it really makes a difference. But if it makes you feel better go for it.

[inkblot]

what is the real difference between a standard .22 or .47 microfarad capacitor and a sprague orange drop, besides size obviously?

 

 

What is a "standard" cap? The ceramic disc is the most common in guitars, as it's the cheapest. Some people say that the ceramic gives a bit of a gritty sound compared to other caps, which range from the Orange Drops to bumblebee and various other types. All capacitors are trying to achieve the same thing - the ideal capacitor model. Different construction types, materials, etc result in somewhat different capacitors (ceramic, electrolytic, paper in oil, etc) but for a guitar circuit the type isn't nearly as important as more demanding applications like an amp or a computer, so the capacitance is the most important aspect.

 

Bottom line, different cap types will cause a slight change in tone, especially when rolling the tone knob down, but don't expect a major change to the tone just from changing cap type. Orange drops are pretty cheap, so it's worth trying out if you can solder it in yourself.

[Wyatt]

Tolerance is also a big issue.

An OD series has a +/-5% tolerance...so a .047 can actually be .045 or .049...that difference is insignificant.

But a ceramic disc can have tolerances of +/-20% or even +40%/-10%, and at that point the tolerance could mean a difference in tone.

So, when a comparing different caps, it always ideal to use a DMM and measure all, including the one coming out of the guitar.

[Quarter]

I like and use Orange Drops on all my builds, they are of good quality, sound good, reasonably priced, and fun to say. For only an extra buck or two, its an easy decision to make.

[Johnny Z]

Tolerance is also a big issue. An OD series has a +/-5% tolerance...so a .047 can actually be .045 or .049...that difference is insignificant. But a ceramic disc can have tolerances of +/-20% or even +40%/-10%, and at that point the tolerance could mean a difference in tone. So, when a comparing different caps, it always ideal to use a DMM and measure all, including the one coming out of the guitar.

 

 

 

Really that's why you have a tone control to adjust for the difference in value, 20% is still reasonable in a guitar tone circuit using a audio pot controled cap. At 0 nothing changes and the cap is out of the circuit, at full bass you'll get total mud but bleading off all the highs, you'll still have everything in between just at slightly differnet places on the knob. More important than the type of cap used is the kind of pot used and it's function. For that reason I always use a good audio ot log pot for tone not a linear pot. With that in mind better parts arn't that expensive and using a tighter tolerance componets is a good idea.

 

Old trick for Fender amps, changing the Tone controls to higher values, will really open up the amps tone.

[Wyatt]

 

Really that's why you have a tone control to adjust for the difference in value, 20% is still reasonable in a guitar tone circuit using a audio pot controled cap. At 0 nothing changes and the cap is out of the circuit, at full bass you'll get total mud but bleading off all the highs, you'll still have everything in between just at slightly differnet places on the knob. More important than the type of cap used is the kind of pot used and it's function. For that reason I always use a good audio ot log pot for tone not a linear pot. With that in mind better parts arn't that expensive and using a tighter tolerance componets is a good idea. Old trick for Fender amps, changing the Tone controls to higher values, will really open up the amps tone.

 

 

That's like saying you can adjust for differences in EQ settings just by adjusting the level knob.

 

The tone cap is a high pass filter to ground. It's value sets the cutoff point for what gets dumped to ground and what doesn't. Consider tone control is like a Christmas tree (or any non-denominational evergreen) , the fat bushy part at the bottom is the guitars low end, the pointy top is the guitar's high end. The tone control cuts that tree off somewhere inbetween and then fades out everything above the cut (my simile falls apart here) and leaves everything below the cut intact. The value of of cap use decides how far up or down the tree that cut is made. A .022 cap cuts closer to the top, a .1 cuts much closer to the bottom -- .033 and .047 fall in there respective places in-between. If you want a guitar to retain some clarity and definition with the Tone rolled back, you cut closer to the top. A little less or more upper mids retained makes a difference. For instance, I use a .033 for Teles instead of a .047, because the retained upper mids helps the bridge PU get fat, like a P-90, but not muddy. I stumbled acorss this by accident, I was experimenting with different cap types in an old Tele and none sounded as good as the stock disc, which ended up measuring at .035 and everything else I tried was much closer to .05.

 

The tone pot has no effect over that cutoff point, it can't adjust for the difference in value between caps. It just controls how much of the signal gets dumped, not which signal gets dumped.

 

A 20% tolerance isn't that bad, but can easy account for the slight differences people hear when taste testing caps, probably more so than composition. But ceramic discs can have a tolerance of +40%, which means you could be using a .03 cap instead of a .022 cap, and that will have a very obvious difference in the circuit, especially with a humbucker. Selecting the right filter value is a create way to customize tone circuits to taste, so that they never become to muddy.

 

So, by measuring what comes out of circuits one does or does not like, they can get a more accurate feel for what to try in there next.

[Johnny Z]

Absolutely not on being able to adjust for the difference in values with a pot. The tone cap is a high pass filter to ground. It's value sets the cutoff point for what gets dumped to ground and what doesn't. Consider tone control is like a Christmas tree (or any non-denominational evergreen) , the fat bushy part at the bottom is the guitars low end, the pointy top is the guitar's high end. The tone control cuts that tree off somewhere inbetween and then fades out everything above the cut (my simile falls apart here) and leaves everything below the cut intact. The value of of cap use decides how far up or down the tree that cut is made. A .022 cap cuts closer to the top, a .1 cuts much closer to the bottom -- .033 and .047 fall in there respective places in-between. If you want a guitar to retain some clarity and definition with the Tone rolled back, you cut closer to the top. A little less or more upper mids retained makes a difference. For instance, I use a .033 for Teles instead of a .047, because the retained upper mids helps the bridge PU get fat, like a P-90, but not muddy. I stumbled acorss this by accident, I was experimenting with different cap types in an old Tele and none sounded as good as the stock disc, which ended up measuring at .035 and everything else I tried was much closer to .05. The tone pot has no effect over that cutoff point, it can't adjust for the difference in value between caps. It just controls how much of the signal gets dumped, not which signal gets dumped. A 20% tolerance isn't that bad, but can easy account for the slight differences people hear when taste testing caps, probably more so than composition. But ceramic discs can have a tolerance of +40%, which means you could be using a .03 cap instead of a .022 cap, and that will have a very obvious difference in the circuit, especially with a humbucker. Selecting the right filter value is a create way to customize tone circuits to taste, so that they never become to muddy. So, by measuring what comes out of circuits one does or does not like, they can get a more accurate feel for what to try in there next.

 

 

Then why have a tone control at all and not a bunch of switches hooked to caps? You better go back and learn some basic electronic circuit desigh.

[mrbrown49]

 

Then why have a tone control at all and not a bunch of switches hooked to caps? You better go back and learn some basic electronic circuit desigh.

 

 

Because they are useful. Nobody said they were perfect. A common mod is adding a switch that lets you pick between caps, or effectively choose your cutoff frequency. But a cap needs to be in series with a resistor (or pot) to function as a tone control.

[mdintx]

Then why have a tone control at all and not a bunch of switches hooked to caps? You better go back and learn some basic electronic circuit desigh.

 

 

http://www.acmeguitarworks.com/ToneShaper_for_Stratocaster__P2032C218.cfm

 

[eurotrashed]

The tone cap is a high pass filter to ground.

 

 

Tone pot is a LOW pass filter. The lows pass through. The highs are stopped. You can convert it into a high pass though easy enough.

[mrbrown49]

 

Tone pot is a LOW pass filter. The lows pass through. The highs are stopped. You can convert it into a high pass though easy enough.

 

 

Nope. The highs pass to ground, making it a high pass filter.

[inkblot]

Then why have a tone control at all and not a bunch of switches hooked to caps? You better go back and learn some basic electronic circuit desigh.

 

 

It's simple and effective. Wyatt is correct. If we're going to be picky, it should be noted that a capacitor does not have a strict cut off point on the frequencies it passes to ground and those it does not. High frequencies will pass almost unrestricted through a typical guitar cap if the tone knob is at zero, but mid and low frequencies also pass to a lesser extent.

[inkblot]

Nope. The highs pass to ground, making it a high pass filter.

 

 

The terminology is confusing, because you are right that it passes highs to ground. However, the output of a guitar circuit is the output jack, and the tone pot passes lows to the jack while highs are dumped. The diagram at this wiki article should make it more clear.

[mrbrown49]

The terminology is confusing, because you are right that it passes highs to ground. However, the output of a guitar circuit is the output jack, and the tone pot passes lows to the jack while highs are dumped. The diagram at this wiki article should make it more clear.

The tone pot doesn't pass lows to the jack. Most of the lows never see the tone pot, they go directly to the hot signal out. The highs are bled off the output signal, and the lows and mids are retained. It's more like...



Which is a high pass filter.

[eurotrashed]

Nope. The highs pass to ground, making it a high pass filter.

Here is a low pass filter:


Yes, the cap goes to ground. This is called a low pass filter because LOWs pass through to Vout.

But believe what you want. If I am wrong then every Electrical Engineer is wrong.

Even Wikipedia has it right and here is the low pass filter that they show:


To have a high pass filter. The resistor and cap are switched.

[inkblot]

Vin is the pickup + output. Vout is the jack tip, aka the guitar's + output. The tone pot and cap allow lows to pass to the amp (Vout) while highs are attenuated. It's a low pass filter.

[eurotrashed]

The tone pot doesn't pass lows to the jack. Most of the lows never see the tone pot, they go directly to the hot signal out. The highs are bled off the output signal, and the lows and mids are retained. It's more like... Which is a high pass filter.

Yes, that is a high pass. Notice how the highs do NOT pass to ground in that schematic. The highs go through and the lows are stopped.

[jacobarber]

the REAL difference between common ceramic disc capacitors and orange drops is that ceramic discs grow on trees and suffocate us, whereas orange drops are mined from deep caverns in south america and are made of magic. plus they're orange. COME ON

[eurotrashed]

Here is a low pass filter:

And notice how a guitar tone matches the low pass diagram:


The cap is soldered on lug 2 which is the output after the resistor (pot) and goes to ground

[Wyatt]

 

Nope. The highs pass to ground, making it a high pass filter.

 

 

eurotrashed is right. I was simplifying for the point of discussion, but I am mixing terms that should be more specific. And needed to better define context.

 

There are two ways of looking at this...what happens within the the tone circuit and what it does in regards to the actually guitar signal to amp (which is the important).

 

Isolating the discussion to the Tone circuit itself, the cap's job is to pass through the high frequencies to the pot (or ground, depending on what order you wire them in at) and block the lows out.

 

But a tone circuit is pointless unless its wired in somewhere, and within the overall guitar wiring, the entire tone circuit is a low-pass filter that shunts highs off to ground and lets the lows pass through to the amp.

[A-20]

I can tell a difference most the time when I put an orange drop cap into a guitar. For it is just more "smooth" and "true" to the sound it "should" make.

Sure that's all non-technical terminology, but it does sound better many times. Ceramic just sounds a bit "harsher" sometimes.

Value of the cap is a major thing you should consider as well. Always keep a supply on hand of various sizes.

[Wyatt]

 

Then why have a tone control at all and not a bunch of switches hooked to caps? You better go back and learn some basic electronic circuit desigh.

 

 

You just described the Varitone tone circuit from Gibson's ES345 and 355 and few other guitars. That's also the way the Tone control is wired in vintage EF-86 based amps and those why borrowed the design...Matchless, Bad Cat, etc. Not to mention the filter range control on several custom wahs.

 

You're a hack, it's easy to read it your rudimentary assumptions of electronics, and general lack of circuit origins. Don't lecture me.

[Wyatt]

http://www.acmeguitarworks.com/ToneShaper_for_Stratocaster__P2032C218.cfm

I pray that black holder isn't to scale.