[update] Digidesign Eleven Rack - Got Questions for Digi?

[Jon Chappell]

 

Of course you can hook it up to anything that will accept an analog or digital input. I guess that's what the page in the manual is showing. But there's no connection between the Eleven and the computer, so you have to turn all the knobs by hand. Essentially it's a stand-alone "guitar preamp" in this mode.

 

 

I think I see it now--the USB hook-up is only for controlling the Eleven Rack. So no audio is going over that connection when used in conjunction with the HD rig.

 

But at least you don't have to turn the knobs by hand. Quel horreur!

 

And it still leaves the question of Why not an LE device?

[amplayer]

You can find a list of the MIDI-controlled parameters on page 95 of the manual, which you can download here . (Click the "Download" tab.) And some of the functions you mention can be controlled with basic low-cost footswitches, such as those available from DigiTech and Boss. Which leads me to this observation: For a deluxe live-performance processor, the Eleven Rack really should have two footswitch jacks--one for a dedicated expression pedal (i.e., continuous controller) and one for a single or dual footswitch (for momentary and latching functions). __ A quick glance around the studio reveals two pedals that each sport two external pedal jacks--the Eventide TimeFactor and the IKM StealthPedal. Just sayin'. __ I guess Avid/Digi figures that because they also include MIDI jacks (which these other pedals don't), they don't need to put in the extra 1/4" jack. And I suppose that's fair. But it means you'll have to buy a MIDI controller instead of using more available (and simpler) footswitches.

 

A big processor like this can't be sufficiently controlled with a simple 1/4 inch jack. It needs MIDI to fully take advantage of it.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Jon, Mike, I suspect Jon was correct about LE not supporting two interfaces simultaneously. I would have thought that would apply to the M-Audio stuff (M-Powered) too, but maybe not.

 

My guess is that with a HD system, it is functioning in a similar way to the USB data connection on products like some of Lexicon's more recent processors - you can save your plug-in settings via USB, and control the unit remotely over the USB connection via a plug-in in the host DAW, but you still need to use a dedicated analog or digital audio connection via the two audio interfaces to transfer audio between the two units.

 

I personally think Digidesign should consider releasing a driver that would support multiple LE units on a single computer. This product just reinforces that. If someone wanted more than 18 channels of I/O, they could just buy another interface. But LE will probably never see an increased I/O count according to my sources, so I imagine if you're going to use this with a larger LE setup (such as a Digi 003), you'll have to give up using Eleven Rack as a LE interface and stick with normal audio and MIDI connections between the two units.

[MikeRivers]

 

Jon, Mike, I suspect Jon was correct about LE not supporting two interfaces simultaneously. I would have thought that would apply to the M-Audio stuff (M-Powered) too, but maybe not. I personally think Digidesign should consider releasing a driver that would support multiple LE units on a single computer. This product just reinforces that. If someone wanted more than 18 channels of I/O, they could just buy another interface.

 

That's surely true, but keep in mind that while LE is probably the best selling (in number of units) Pro Tools configuration, Digidesign's hope is that most of those sales eventually turn into HD sales. So they need some important things to leave out, and buying more hardware without upgrading the software is a good arm-twisting trick.

 

CEntrance had a short-lived Universal ASIO Driver that aggregated unrelated (and related) audio interfaces, M-Audio being one of the makers that had some support in this driver, but of course ProTools was out of the picture at the time since it only worked with Digidesign hardware. By the time M-Powered came along, CEntrance had decided that they couldn't keep up with testing all the hardware and adapting their driver and closed up that part of the shop.

 

Some hardware manufacturers support stacking multiple interfaces, PreSonus, for example - their driver will support up to 24 channels worth of 8-channel FireSomethings. But I don't know if M-Audio's general ASIO driver can do that with their hardware. Gus probably knows, if he's following this story.

 

If the Mackie "crack" ever gets off the ground maybe there's potential there, since aggregating Mackie Firewire interfaces has been something that they've done, sort of, since the introduction of the Onyx Firewire option card, though their current (and fairly longstanding) driver quit supporting that capability.

 

My guess is that with a HD system, it is functioning in a similar way to the USB data connection on products like some of Lexicon's more recent processors - you can save your plug-in settings via USB, and control the unit remotely over the USB connection via a plug-in in the host DAW, but you still need to use a dedicated analog or digital audio connection via the two audio interfaces to transfer audio between the two units.

 

It's beginning to look that way. I guess that means that the mic input just gets mixed (analog, or analog-like) in with the guitar and comes out the analog and digital outputs to be used wherever it fits into the system.

 

I haven't watched the video or read the manual, nor do I use ProTools or guitar processors, so I probably should stop speculating. I'm just probing for answer here. But since there are USB M-Boxes, why couldn't the USB port carry audio just like an M-Box? Other, of course, than that Digidesign would prefer that you to buy two pieces of their hardware when one could do? As (I think) we originally conceived it here, it could be a useful one-stop recording tool for the guitarist who sings and maybe plays some miscellaneous instruments that could go in to the computer through a mic or line level input.

 

A guitar processor that can be controlled with either front panel knobs or a computer application isn't anything particularly exciting, other than perhaps for some unique sounds, and how many of those can you use, for how long? Eventually we'll figure it out. I guess, though, not at the AES show, since Digidesign isn't on the exhibitor list.

[Mats Nermark]

Hi,

 

I would like to know if it has an ordinary clean and pure digital delay (preferably with ducking capability). I know it models analog and tape delays but O like good sounding clean digital delays too. I would not consider going on stage without it.

 

Cheers,

 

Mats N

[Huh?]

You cannot use the two simultaneously. Either one has to be the Primary interface.

 

You could use a 003 or 002 with LE as the primary interface and hook up the Eleven via the S/PDIF or the analog XLR outs. The USB in this scenario would only carry digital info to the computer so you could access the GUI for settings etc and also to save your sound settings etc etc.

 

If you used the Eleven as primary interface all info would go through the USB.

[Huh?]

You also have to get the install disc that comes with Eleven to get the full functionality with PT8...... it is very cool, has tabs right there in the Mix and Edit windows where you click on it and it brings up the GUI so you can tweak sounds etc etc etc

 

It automatically saves your sound so if you want to add some guitar after the fact you get the EXACT same sound you had.

 

It also automatically records a mono dry guitar track in case you want to re-amp.

 

Pretty cool.

[Huh?]

 

It appears that it does with HD and MP, but not LE, at least according to this illustration in the manual.

 

 

Jon if you read the text on that illustration page it says there " Apart from it's roles an an LE interface and a standalone guitar processor, Eleven Rack can also be used alongside a PT|HD or Pro Tools M-Powered system......

[Huh?]

 

I would like to know if it has an ordinary clean and pure digital delay (preferably with ducking capability). I know it models analog and tape delays but O like good sounding clean digital delays too. I would not consider going on stage without it. Cheers, Mats N

 

 

Not sure, but if not, why not throw your favorite DDL pedal in front of it, or rack unit. It has an effects loop.

 

Sorry for all the posts in a row guys. I got a late call today, 2PM...so I am killing time. Keep seeing stuff I want to try help with and forgot about edit...........sorry

[Jon Chappell]

 

"... Eleven Rack can also be used alongside a PT|HD or Pro Tools M-Powered system...

 

 

But not another LE interface, even when the ER is acting only as a controller. Curious, don'tcha think?

[girevik]

 

You cannot use the two simultaneously. Either one has to be the Primary interface.

 

 

Just for clarification, this means I can't record into Pro Tools LE through an Eleven Rack at the same time as my bandmate records into Pro Tools LE through an MBox2 into the same computer?

 

If we wanted to use both products at the same time, I would have to connect an audio output from the Eleven Rack into one of the MBox2's audio inputs?

[Huh?]

 

Just for clarification, this means I can't record into Pro Tools LE through an Eleven Rack at the same time as my bandmate records into Pro Tools LE through an MBox2 into the same computer? If we wanted to use both products at the same time, I would have to connect an audio output from the Eleven Rack into one of the MBox2's audio inputs?

 

 

Well, you can...just not both interfaces as primary. You are correct in your last sentence.

 

So say you wanted to track an acoustic player and an electric player at the same time and you wanted 2 mic's on the acoustic. Since the ER only has one XLR, you would use the MBox2. The MBox 2 could be the primary interface and you could use the 2 XLR inputs for the mic's on the acoustic. You have digital inputs on the MBox 2....S/PDIF, so you could use that to get the audio from the electric player using the ER.

 

The ER could ALSO be hooked up via USB to make use of the editor...GUI software so you could edit his sound etc.

 

This is my understanding based on a decent amount of research.

 

Jon LE has never supported 2 interfaces.

[MikeRivers]

 

No you can...just not both interfaces as primary.

 

What makes the "primary" primary? Since I've never heard of a low powered ProTools system with more than one hardware interface, the concept of "primary" never came up, at least not in my vocabulary.

 

So, simply stated, can you have both an M-Box or M-Audio interface and the Eleven Rack connected to the computer via USB or Firewire, and have ProTools recognize inputs from both?

 

Reading further, I guess the answer is still "no."

 

So say you wanted to track an acoustic player and an electric player at the same time and you wanted 2 mic's on the acoustic. Since the ER only has one, you would use the MBox2. The MBox 2 could be the primary interface and you could use the 2 XLR inputs for the mic's on the acoustic. You have digital inputs on the MBox 2....S/PDIF, so you could use that to get the audio from the electric player using the ER.

 

OK, but that means that only the M-Box is talking to ProTools. The Eleven is sending audio to the M-Box, which is passing it on as two channels to ProTools. I don't see that as a "primary/secondary" relationship, I see it as a computer audio input device (the M-Box) and a guitar signal processor (the Eleven) connected to one of it's inputs.

 

The ER could ALSO be hooked up via USB to make use of the editor...GUI software so you could edit his sound etc.

 

That makes sense.

 

I assume that you could also use the Eleven "barefoot" into the computer via USB and it would appear to ProTools as (I'm assuming stereo effects out) a pair of guitar outputs and a mic output. And since the Eleven has a pair of analog line inputs and stereo digital inputs, you could expand it's inputs with an outboard mic preamp.

 

How many audio inptus does it appear to ProTools as? 2? 3? 4?

 

Now, if you ProTools would let you have both connected at the same time, and allowed you to select which one you were using, you would have some flexibility in tracking. And if what Phil proposed is correct, and they have a gimmick that lets the control panel look to ProTools like a plug-in, you could control it right from your ProToos session, perhaps sending it a dry guitar signal, tweaking the 'plug-in' and returning it back, processed, to a new track.

 

Jon LE has never supported 2 interfaces.

 

I didn't think so. That would be making it good enough so that not enough people would upgrade to HD.

[Jon Chappell]

 

The ER could ALSO be hooked up via USB to make use of the editor...GUI software so you could edit his sound etc.

 

 

No, I don't think so. Not if he's using an Mbox (and by implication LE). In fact, this is expressly what it won't do. In the excerpt I posted, the manual states that to connect the ER via USB to your computer to use it as an editor, it must be along with MP or HD, so by omission, not another LE device (which is what an MBox2 is). (And I know LE doesn't support multiple interfaces.)

 

Look again at the excerpt: the manual refers to the MP/LE connection twice and shows the USB connection from the ER. It says you have to connect the digital or analog I/O for the audio, but that would be true of any device in front of the interface.

 

This is what I'm saying is unusual: If you just want to use the ER as an editor/controller, why can't you use it with an LE interface (Mbox, etc.)? If it's because "LE won't support more than one interface," well, you're not using the ER as an interface here, just a controller. In fact, when you're using your ER as a controller, you're not using "its version" of LE at all; you're using your "already existing version" of LE.

 

It's mysterious that one has to infer this from the manual's omission.

 

What it boils down to is this: If you already own LE and you want ER, you'll have to turn the knobs manually. If you already own MP or HD, you can use the ER's USB connection to get the editor/controller capabilities.

[Huh?]

This is not what I am seeing.

 

ER is a full fledged Pro Tools interface and works with LE. I don't care much about HD and stuff as I am an LE user. When using with PT|HD it becomes a signal processing device.

 

Watch the videos at the Digi site, there are a bunch of them.

 

Go to the Digi forum and read at the All Things Guitar section.

 

This is what I got from that site.

 

If you use ER by itself it will be a full featured LE interface and all info including audio will travel through the USB. ( For me limited as an interface as it only has (1) XLR input as opposed to (4) on the 002R and a total of 18 inputs on that)

 

But it will work as an interface all by itself.

 

BUT if you want to use another interface for some reason....say a 002 or a 003 because it has more I/O.......but also want to use ER......then the word PRIMARY comes in to play as there are two interfaces. In this case, using another interface, then no audio is passed through the USB...only info for the GUI etc.

 

 

 

I think I misunderstand you Jon......when it is not the primary interface...ie hooked up TO the primary via analo or digital outs.....NO audio goes through the USB but all the other info does.

[Jon Chappell]

 

How many audio inptus does it appear to ProTools as? 2? 3? 4?

 

 

Not sure about that, but the spec sheet says 8 ins. But the manual says that the S/PDIF and AES/EBU can't be used simultaneously, so it's really sort of "6+2" ins, or only 6 simultaneous ins.

 

 

And if what Phil proposed is correct, and they have a gimmick that lets the control panel look to ProTools like a plug-in, you could control it right from your ProToos session, perhaps sending it a dry guitar signal, tweaking the 'plug-in' and returning it back, processed, to a new track.

 

 

Yes, this is definitely cool, and why, I suspect, Avid/Digi are playing up the "reamp" aspect of the ER as one of its main features.

[Huh?]

Also, I am sure you all know that the 002's or 003's hook up via Firewire. The ER is USB only. Me personally I would prefer to work with the faster Firewire connection of the 002.

 

Also I have all my I/O from the 002R, my POD and Bass amp sim, DAT, sound modules etc and all my hardware rack stuff connected to a patchbay. I have the 002R racked as well.

 

 

No way I would use the ER as my main interface to access the Pro Tools 8 software. I might use it with my laptop, that idea is appealing as is uaing the ER live.

[Jon Chappell]

 

Also, I am sure you all know that the 002's or 003's hook up via Firewire. The ER is USB only. Me personally I would prefer to work with the faster Firewire connection of the 002. Also I have all my I/O from the 002R, my POD and Bass amp sim, DAT, sound modules etc and all my hardware rack stuff connected to a patchbay. I have the 002R racked as well. No way I would use the ER as my main interface to access the Pro Tools 8 software. I might use it with my laptop, that idea is appealing as is uaing the ER live.

 

 

Okay, Huh?, thanks for directing me to the "All Things Guitar" thread. I was aware of all your points about digital audio not going over the USB connection when another interface was detected, but I was having trouble with the whole "control function and LE box" relationship. It's left out of the manual, but not in the tech support rep's response below. Here's the post that cleared it up for me, which I found via your guidance:

 

 

 

Re: Eleven Rack: How does interface with existing LE systems?

 

Yup. I'll add this answer from another thread in case anyone stumbles upon this one.

 

 

 

I didn't see anywhere in the videos where this was mentioned, and the users guide only mentioned HD & M-Audio. I'm still not clear on the USB-I/O hooking up thing. Haven't quite processed Digi's response. Call it latency.

 

 

 

Quote:

 

You can use the Eleven Rack in combination with your current LE, MP or HD system, however it will not work as an 'aggregate device' - meaning that the USB connection only transmits control data and not audio streams, as it would if you were using the Eleven Rack as your primary interface.

 

 

 

With an existing LE, MP or HD system you would connect the audio I/O of the Eleven Rack to your current interface and the USB connection to your computer. You will need the latest version update for 8.0.1, available below, to see the Eleven Rack control window within Pro Tools LE, HD or MP:

 

 

 

http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?...4&itemid=39771

 

 

 

The updates at the bottom of this page were created to add support for using Eleven Rack with existing installations of Pro Tools version 8.0.1 HD, LE and M-Powered. This updater will only run if an existing installation of Pro Tools HD/LE/M-Powered version 8.0.1 is detected.*

 

 

 

Eleven Rack support on HD and M-Powered systems includes the ability to control Eleven Rack via the Eleven Rack Control Window and embedding Rig settings. It does not enable Eleven Rack to act as an aggregate audio interface and pass audio up or down the connected USB 2.0 bus. In order to integrate Eleven Rack audio in your Pro Tools HD or M-Powered sessions, connect Eleven Rack to your existing HD or M-Powered audio interface by using the analog or digital I/O featured on Eleven Rack.

 

__________________

 

Digidesign Tech Support

 

__________________

 

[Jeff da Weasel]

 

Also, I am sure you all know that the 002's or 003's hook up via Firewire. The ER is USB only. Me personally I would prefer to work with the faster Firewire connection of the 002.

 

 

Is Firewire significantly faster than USB 2.0? I agree that it's still advantageous for other reasons (i.e. supporting more voltage and better communications protocol).

[Huh?]

 

Is Firewire significantly faster than USB 2.0? I agree that it's still advantageous for other reasons (i.e. supporting more voltage and better communications protocol).

 

 

LOL Zak....to be honest I don't really KNOW the answer to that. I always thought it was. The newer 2.0 might be as fast or better. I need to find out for sure now:) I just assume it FW is faster.

[Jon Gnash]

If you have any specific questions about the Eleven Rack, type 'em in here and I'll ask them during my visit tomorrow.

Did they OEM it from Line 6?

[Gus Lozada]

 

Sweet! I'd like to know if Eleven Rack can be used simultaneously with another Pro Tools LE interface while recording into Pro Tools. For example, me recording via Eleven Rack and my bandmate recording voice and guitar into an MBox2. I also like the standalone (no computer) capability.

 

 

 

I guess I'll solve several questions by answering this single one:

 

1) It can NOT be used together with another interface -any- to SUM channels. This is standard in LE and M-Powered and with |HD you need another |HD card to do this.

 

2) They mention |HD and M-Powered as alternate uses for the ELEVEN RACK because in Pro Tools LE it will be the actual interface for the system.

 

3) You can, of course, use it together in |HD and M-Powered systems via its analog and / or digital input / ouputs as:

 

a) a FX processor for a guitar played directly

 

b) a re-amping system for previously recorded guitars

 

c) Even while not used as an audio interface, you can control it in Pro Tools |HD and M-Powered via the Eleven Rack Control Window. Use your Digidesign |HD hardware or a M-Audio interface as the main audio interface for your |HD or M-Powered system. Connect it USB to the computer and control it via the Eleven Rack Control Window as if it was a plug-in (however it is not considered a plug-in). The Eleven Rack Control Window will take control of the hardware and will automate it, but the sound itself will be recorded through the main audio interface, whereas it be a |HD or M-Powered hardware.

 

4) It can be used as an audio interface for other systems, just like with any other Digidesign interface. However ELEVEN Rack Control Window-the plug-in which controls the rack's guts- won't run in other DAWs; You can use it as an audio interface and FX processor but it will not be automated as it can be done within Pro Tools LE; however, it can be controled and automated via standard MIDI messages.

 

5) It has up to 8 recording sources at-once:

 

1 - Mic XLR

1 - Guitar True-Z

2 - Line Inputs

2 - Stereo Output of the FX processor straight into Pro Tools LE

2 - either Stereo S/PDIF or AES/EBU

 

6) It has up to 6 outputs from the system:

 

2 - Main/Phones outputs

2 - Output To Amp outputs

2 - Stereo digital output either S/PDIF or AES/EBU

7) It will only work with Pro Tools 8.0.1 and newer versions.

[nerol1st]

 

7) It will only work with Pro Tools 8.0.1 and newer versions.

 

 

I find this stupid.

[Mats Nermark]

 

I guess I'll solve several questions by answering this single one: 1) It can NOT be used together with another interface -any- to SUM channels. This is standard in LE and M-Powered and with |HD you need another |HD card to do this. 2) They mention |HD and M-Powered as alternate uses for the ELEVEN RACK because in Pro Tools LE it will be the actual interface for the system. 3) You can, of course, use it together in |HD and M-Powered systems via its analog and / or digital input / ouputs as: a) a FX processor for a guitar played directly b) a re-amping system for previously recorded guitars c) Even while not used as an audio interface, you can control it in Pro Tools |HD and M-Powered via the Eleven Rack Control Window . Use your Digidesign |HD hardware or a M-Audio interface as the main audio interface for your |HD or M-Powered system. Connect it USB to the computer and control it via the Eleven Rack Control Window as if it was a plug-in (however it is not considered a plug-in). The Eleven Rack Control Window will take control of the hardware and will automate it, but the sound itself will be recorded through the main audio interface, whereas it be a |HD or M-Powered hardware. 4) It can be used as an audio interface for other systems, just like with any other Digidesign interface. However ELEVEN Rack Control Window -the plug-in which controls the rack's guts- won't run in other DAWs; You can use it as an audio interface and FX processor but it will not be automated as it can be done within Pro Tools LE; however, it can be controled and automated via standard MIDI messages. 5) It has up to 8 recording sources at-once: 1 - Mic XLR 1 - Guitar True-Z 2 - Line Inputs 2 - Stereo Output of the FX processor straight into Pro Tools LE 2 - either Stereo S/PDIF or AES/EBU 6) It has up to 6 outputs from the system: 2 - Main/Phones outputs 2 - Output To Amp outputs 2 - Stereo digital output either S/PDIF or AES/EBU 7) It will only work with Pro Tools 8.0.1 and newer versions.

 

 

Hi Gus,

 

Thanks for the info.

 

Cheers,

 

Mats N

[Jon Chappell]

 

5) It has up to 8 recording sources at-once: 1 - Mic XLR 1 - Guitar True-Z 2 - Line Inputs 2 - Stereo Output of the FX processor straight into Pro Tools LE 2 - either Stereo S/PDIF or AES/EBU

 

 

Thanks for clarifying this point (and the others!), Gus.