Members rim Posted December 19, 2009 Members Share Posted December 19, 2009 In the EQ Mag January 2010 issue, in the "Secret Service" (Weezer) article, Butch Walker talks about recording drums in mono and I wanted to try it, but I need some clarification on how this is done. I know experimentation is a valuable thing, but I'm trying this for the first time so I'd like to know what the tried and true way is. 1) He says they record the overhead with one mic (hence, mono). Is it safe to assume it's an omni mic? 2) He also says he has the drummer play without cymbals. Does he also mean the hihats and the ride? My gut feeling is he lets the drummer play with hihats and a ride but no other cymbals, but it wasn't clear to me. 3) When overdubbing the cymbals that were left out, are they all played together and recorded in stereo or are each cymbal recorded one at a time (in mono)? If anyone has experience in this recording method, I'd appreciate some guidance and tips. Thanks!Rim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted December 19, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 19, 2009 How did I miss that article? Just came out? I like Butch Walker. Anyway, I don't see why it has to be an omni in the OH position. Cardioids can be aimed to pickup an entire kit from above, or in front. Though an omni would certainly be a great choice as well. I personally don't see an advantage in taking a drummers hats away. Or ride. This is how he's worked his groove from day one so to take them from him... though possibly an interesting experiment for a tune or ten, robs the drummer of his mojo. Taking crashes? YEAH!!!! Overdubbing crashes? I done it a lot. Usualy in a case where we really wanted a crash somewhere and the drummer didn't hit it. It's easiest if you catch this right away and do the over dub with the existing setup. Totally trasnparent at that time. But overdubbing a crash isn't too finicky. I've stuck a single SDC in the right spot and later panned it where I want without much negative impact. I've set up an XY or Blumlien as well and done cymbal overdubs. Sounds great. But we're talking mono. Keep the cymbals mono if you're going mono. Place your mic, record the key crashes and pan it straight up. Some of Jack White's mono drum stuff with Dead Weather and The Raconteurs is cool. Lots of room for guitar noise to the sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted December 19, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 He says they record the overhead with one mic (hence, mono). Is it safe to assume it's an omni mic? No. In fact it most likely wasn't an omni mic. A real useful article would tell you what he used. You might not have that same mic (and even if you did, it might not be right for your drum set) but at least it would give you some idea of the pickup pattern and frequency response. If the drummer was really playing without cymbals as it said in the article, the overhead was probably a large diaphragm condenser, older style (like maybe a U87) set to cardioid. He also says he has the drummer play without cymbals. Does he also mean the hihats and the ride? Probably hi-hat for sure since that's an essential part of the beat structure. and it doesn't get in the way if it's played right. I don't know about the ride. But I expect that you can't just tell your drummer "take off your cymbals and we'll track 'em later." I'm sure it takes a lot of practice to be able to play that way. If you're a drummer, try it yourself and see what you think. When overdubbing the cymbals that were left out, are they all played together and recorded in stereo or are each cymbal recorded one at a time (in mono)? What does the song sound like? Are the cymbals busy? If so, they were probably played all at once, with stereo overheads. What that gets you is no snare in the overheads and no cymbals in the snare track, but you still get the sense of stereo overheads. If anyone has experience in this recording method, I'd appreciate some guidance and tips. It's sure a new one on me. I've always thought of the drum kit as a single instrument. You wouldn't record a guitar by only playing the notes that are on the first string, then making another pass and only playing the notes on the second string, and so on. It's hard enough to get a singer/songwriter to not sing when he's playing guitar and not play guitar when he's singing - which is why we learn to work with leakage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rim Posted December 19, 2009 Author Members Share Posted December 19, 2009 How did I miss that article? Just came out? I like Butch Walker. I subscribe and just got it this week. It's got Weezer on the cover. I personally don't see an advantage in taking a drummers hats away. Or ride. This is how he's worked his groove from day one I agree but the article says he has the drummer play without cymbals, and hihats and rides are technically cymbals. Perhaps I'm too literal. But we're talking mono. Keep the cymbals mono if you're going mono. Place your mic, record the key crashes and pan it straight up. Probably me being too literal again, but I interpreted it as the drums (not the whole drum kit) being in mono. I read it as the idea for recording drums in mono without cymbals is so you can really compress that track. As I interpreted what Butch Walker was saying, compressing this much to tracks with cymbals make the cymbals sound bad, hence recording cymbals separately. Then you mix in the cymbals without as much compression or maybe none at all. I guess he might've also meant the cymbals should be panned center but I thought leaving it in stereo would give you a good stereo effect but the main drum sound is dead center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rim Posted December 19, 2009 Author Members Share Posted December 19, 2009 Probably hi-hat for sure since that's an essential part of the beat structure. and it doesn't get in the way if it's played right. I don't know about the ride. But I expect that you can't just tell your drummer "take off your cymbals and we'll track 'em later." I'm sure it takes a lot of practice to be able to play that way. If you're a drummer, try it yourself and see what you think. I was thinking that, too - it would be hard not to play at least the hihats. It's sure a new one on me. I've always thought of the drum kit as a single instrument. You wouldn't record a guitar by only playing the notes that are on the first string, then making another pass and only playing the notes on the second string, and so on. True, but each string on the guitar pretty much has the same sound quality or "personality" and can be recorded with the same method. I can see drums (snares and toms) having a different enough personality from cymbals to warrant different recording methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted December 19, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 True, but each string on the guitar pretty much has the same sound quality or "personality" and can be recorded with the same method. I can see drums (snares and toms) having a different enough personality from cymbals to warrant different recording methods. That was kind of a silly example with the guitar (I started thinking about a trumpet with all the notes played with the first valve, then all the notes played with the second valve, etc.). But, at least with an acoustic guitar, the bass strings sound very different from the treble strings, but that's part of the characteristic guitar sound, so you don't want to separate them. You position the mic to get the balance that fits the song and the instrument, but you record them together unless it's a part that the guitarist can't play all in one pass, like a bass counterpoint to a treble melody, and he's not Chet Atkins. To bet back to the subject, I don't see any reason not to record drums with a single mono mic overhead. Often a single mic is placed several feet in front of the drums so this is just a different perspective of the same thing. And if you can get the sound of the skins and wood without the metal, you'll probably have a better picture of the drums in the room. I think that cymbals other than hi hat are greatly overrated, but maybe bashing around at things arms length away is a good way to get chicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 19, 2009 Members Share Posted December 19, 2009 I think that cymbals other than hi hat are greatly overrated, but maybe bashing around at things arms length away is a good way to get chicks. Overrated, not sure, but they sure seem overplayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted December 19, 2009 Members Share Posted December 19, 2009 usually all drums and cymbals are recorded with one microphone = mono Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tremolounge Posted December 19, 2009 Members Share Posted December 19, 2009 Overrated, not sure, but they sure seem overplayed. Both. I swear, the next band I start, I'm gonna specify "No cymbals allowed" when advertising for a drummer. Probably wouldn't get many replies, would I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted December 19, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 19, 2009 In fact it most likely wasn't an omni mic. I'm curious why you say that? It seems an omni would be a viable choice as well. Why do you say no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted December 19, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 I'm curious why you say that? It seems an omni would be a viable choice as well. Why do you say no? I don't know how high the ceiling in that studio is or what it's made out of, but I'll bet what you have isn't as high and probably more reflective. You don't want to pick up a reflection from the ceiling, which is what an omni would do much better than a cardioid. That tends to sound pretty awful. It's OK to blend in a little for an effect, but if it's going to be a significant part of the drum sound, it isn't a desirable sound. I think this sort of thing makes for a good article because people like us are talking about it. But I doubt that you'd want to make a habit of it. But if you just want to try something off-the-wall (literally) then it doesn't matter what kind of mic you use. If you don't like what you get, you try another one. If you like what you get, then you can write the next article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted December 19, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 19, 2009 I don't know how high the ceiling in that studio is or what it's made out of, but I'll bet what you have isn't as high and probably more reflective. You don't want to pick up a reflection from the ceiling, which is what an omni would do much better than a cardioid. That tends to sound pretty awful. It's OK to blend in a little for an effect, but if it's going to be a significant part of the drum sound, it isn't a desirable sound. I think this sort of thing makes for a good article because people like us are talking about it. But I doubt that you'd want to make a habit of it. But if you just want to try something off-the-wall (literally) then it doesn't matter what kind of mic you use. If you don't like what you get, you try another one. If you like what you get, then you can write the next article. Got it. I actually have an 18' ceiling and have used a single omni over the kit to great effect. I get why you say that though now. Thanks for the reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted December 20, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 20, 2009 How did I miss that article? Just came out? Maybe the two pages of your copy were stuck together. Someone needs to feed that puppy, it's lookin' a little thin lately. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ronan Murphy Posted December 20, 2009 Members Share Posted December 20, 2009 When I do mono drums, its usually referring to a single overhead and reinforcing with what ever is needed. There is something cool about mono drums. They can have a lot of power and the really focused center image leave more room for the guitars and keys to hang out in the left and right. Its probably targeted at guys with less experience than the folks here on CA's SS&S, but I just did a video out mono drum recording techniques. (FYI the condenser was cardioid)http://ronansrecordingshow.com/2009/12/drum-recording-tips-great-drum-sounds-with-only-two-mics-or-two-inputs/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members offramp Posted December 20, 2009 Members Share Posted December 20, 2009 Both. I swear, the next band I start, I'm gonna specify "No cymbals allowed" when advertising for a drummer. Probably wouldn't get many replies, would I? Not polite ones, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nice keetee Posted December 20, 2009 Members Share Posted December 20, 2009 Was it Peter Gabriel that recorded an album way back without cymbals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nice keetee Posted December 20, 2009 Members Share Posted December 20, 2009 Leaves a lot of air for the rest of the instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nice keetee Posted December 20, 2009 Members Share Posted December 20, 2009 3rd album, Melt. Marotta and Collins, no cymbals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nice keetee Posted December 20, 2009 Members Share Posted December 20, 2009 A single PZM mic can do fine for drums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rim Posted December 20, 2009 Author Members Share Posted December 20, 2009 Its probably targeted at guys with less experience than the folks here on CA's SS&S, but I just did a video out mono drum recording techniques. (FYI the condenser was cardioid)http://ronansrecordingshow.com/2009/12/drum-recording-tips-great-drum-sounds-with-only-two-mics-or-two-inputs/ Thanks for posting that, I thought it was very informative. I've always wanted to hear what each stage of the recording process does so I know which part in my process needs improvement. I'm surprised how big the difference was using the console and outboard gear. It would be another extra step for you, but I wonder if you could do a version using just software plugins other than what came with ProTools. Possibly in the mid range price (I have Waves Gold). I think there are a lot of home studios that will have more than just the PT included plugins but limited in outboard gear and most likely don't even own a console. Anyway, I'll definitely check out your web site and podcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ronan Murphy Posted December 21, 2009 Members Share Posted December 21, 2009 I'm surprised how big the difference was using the console and outboard gear. It would be another extra step for you, but I wonder if you could do a version using just software plugins other than what came with ProTools. Possibly in the mid range price I should have been a lot more clear about this in the show, but I did not really mean the examples to show the differences between analog and digital. I did the analog mix with all the normal toys I have up for my professional mixing work (lots of high end EQs and compressors involved). I did the digital one not to show how much better the analog one was, but two show that you can actually get some good sounds just using a couple channels, stock plug ins and almost no work. I spent about 6 minutes on each of the mixes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members franknputer Posted December 21, 2009 Members Share Posted December 21, 2009 If you read the last part of the article (with Jack Sinclair), he tells you what mics they use. It's not a single mic approach - they're combining different mics and panning everything center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nerol1st Posted December 21, 2009 Members Share Posted December 21, 2009 Walker sounded like a {censored} in that article. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted December 21, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 21, 2009 http://ronansrecordingshow.com/2009/12/drum-recording-tips-great-drum-sounds-with-only-two-mics-or-two-inputs/ Outstanding! Thanks for the link! Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted December 22, 2009 Members Share Posted December 22, 2009 But I expect that you can't just tell your drummer "take off your cymbals and we'll track 'em later." I'm sure it takes a lot of practice to be able to play that way. If you're a drummer, try it yourself and see what you think. ... It's sure a new one on me. I've always thought of the drum kit as a single instrument. You wouldn't record a guitar by only playing the notes that are on the first string, then making another pass and only playing the notes on the second string, and so on. Exactly. IMO it's completely lame to even think of asking a drummer to do that. It's basically asking a musician to compromise their own performance for the sake of making the engineer's job easier. Yet loads of engineers do ask drummers to do just that, and some even denigrate drummers who won't do it. If a drummer comes up with the idea on their own to record drums and cymbals separately because there's a particular special effect they're after on a particular song and they worked it out that way, fine. But asking them to play that way all the time in the studio... If you don't have high enough ceilings to use a true overhead without excessive cymbals in the mix, just reposition the mic so it's not really an "overhead" but a room mic. In fact sometimes this sounds better anyway, if you're trying to get more drums and less cymbals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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