ATTN Electronics wizards: True or False, cheap pots have no effect on tone vs....

[Orange Jackson]

more expensive pots?

 

O.K., maybe you don't need to be a wizard to answer this one. But I am not looking for guesses or opinions, I want facts baby!

(Not concerned with audio taper vs. liner, or 250k vs. 500k or 1 meg.)

 

My question is about the signal, or effect on tone, if any, between two like value pots.

 

 

I assumed that swapping out those mini pots that you find in many imports actually helped to improve the signal coming from the pickups. This I imagined occurred by the better pot interfering with the signal less than a cheap pot might.

 

 

 

 

Doing some reading the other day, and it sounded like two 500k pots, one a mini cheapo and the other, say a CTS, would send the same signal, same sound, at full on, simply because they are the same value, 500K.

The only difference would be if one was full sized and one mini, you have a bigger sweep with the larger pot. But as far as signal, it is the same. Is that right or wrong?

 

Thanks dudes!

[FXR]

The quality of the resistive coating material, the wiper material, the connection types of the lugs and wiper could all affect the signal path. I'll just stick the the moving of the electrical signal. Someone else can comment on how that might affect tone.

[cratz2]

'No effect'? I'd disagree with that. But it's not likely to be a tremendous difference. Plus, are we talking high quality pots? If you compare full size CTS stuff against the absolute cheapest mini pots, there's probably more likely to be some difference.

 

I don't buy that it will transform a guitar though. And I've done it. If you aren't changing values, then if you found the guitar dull before and you put in full size pots, the tone isn't going to now somehow radically jump off the stage. But if you like the feel of the guitar, but it's kinda dull and muddy sounding and you replace the mini 250K pots with full size CTS 500k pots and replace the .047 ceramic cap can with a nice .022 paper in oil cap then sure... might be a pretty decent difference.

 

The other thing people tend to forget about is these are cheap components. 20% tolerances or thereabouts. With an unlucky draw, you might get a 500k pot close to 400k and your .047 cap might be closer to .055. You could replace those with identical parts out of the same bin and have a pot that measures 580k and a cap that measures .040 and THAT might be a pretty significant difference.

[Elias Graves]

10 pages?

 

I've swapped cheap mini pots out of two guitars. In both cases I heard a big improvement in sound. Nothing more scientific than that.

In fact, on my Epi SG, I did a pickup swap and it still sounded like mud. After a pot swap it sounded much clearer.

Some of it may be tighter tolerance on ratings in the better pots. One of the 500s I pulled out of the SG only measured 350.

 

EG

[Kid Klash]

IMHO, minimal difference in tone, IF the cheap pot is wired and operating correctly.

 

It could (and usually does) have an effect on the practical functionality of the guitar or bass volume control, because many of the cheap pots don't have much of a range from "off" to "full on". This is why some guitars with inexpensive pots tend to abruptly go from off to LOUD, with very little range in between.

[mike42]

Just based on my own practical experience, I agree you might see a small improvement in tone going to better components. But assuming nothing is outright defective, I think you're talking in the range of 1 - 5% improvement. Nothing very earthshaking, but still very noticeable if you're really zoned in on it.

[Bert-O-325]

there's the variance in actual resistance to be considered - ie: most electrical components values are within some +/-% tolerance of a target value, lower quality components will vary more than higher quality components.

 

Thus, a higher quality potentiometer will generally be closer to the target resistance value, while a lower quality pot might be further off (yet still within its "tolerance" range). Certainly, you may get a low-quality pot that just happens to be right on the mark - its just more likely that a hi-quality pot will more often be closer to that target value. So that 250K pot might not be exactly 250K.

 

This matters because the Value of resistance in the circuit affects the tone.

 

Now, HOW MUCH it matters is subject to much debate and personal preference.

[cratz2]

If we're talking percentage of improvement points ( :poke: ), then the types of tones and how you like to set up you amp will play pretty big differences.

 

As purely random samples, if you have an SG clone with covered HBs and 500k mini pots going into a Dual Rectifier with the gains set high, then getting the best 500k pot on the planet probably won't even change your tone 1%. On the other hand, if you have an late 80s Korean Squier with 500k mini pots going into a super choice Blackface Vibrolux then changing to CTS 250k pots and a .047 cap will likely transform that guitar. I mean a pretty radical difference. Granted, we're changing values here, but still... same cost outlay.

 

In scientific terms, I'd be willing to bet if you recorded a random guitar through a random amp, then replaced the pots with the same value pots but top notch quality and then nudged the treble on the amp up 0.5, you couldn't tell the difference in the recorded tones. At least difference in the actual mechanics of the performance (how hard was the pick attack on that one note, did the guitarist hold the vibrato longer on that note) would be a bigger difference.

 

On the other hand, if you spend $20 on 4 quality pots and $10 on a couple nice paper in oil caps and you think it makes you sound better, then it probably DOES make you sound better because you have a little more confidence in your tone.

 

[Belva]

The confidence of tone is key here. Well put, cratz. I don't see pots making enough of a difference to be noticable. But over the life of the pot there could potentially be huge differences. If you're wiring up a guitar and plan on keeping it, I say get the best parts you can find. Do it once and do it right. BTW I prefer good quality mini pots when I can find them.

[PunkKitty]

I've experimented with a lot of different pots. From now on, I strictly use CTS. Slightly better tone. But the cheap Asian pots tend not to last as long. They become scratchy quickly. CTS pots are also easier to solder IMHO. I'd rather spend the little bit of extra money for a better pot up front even if it means that I have to enlarge the hole a bit to get it to fit. However there are times when the control cavity is too tight for normal pots. Then there is choice but to go mini. That's the only time I'll use an Alpha.

[zachoff]

I've changed pots in a bass (SX P) and a guitar (Squier Tele Custom) and it's made a marked difference in output... Whether that translates to tone is for those who obsess. I'm not one of those types.

[BigBone]

Really "cheap" pots can be all over the place in quality, have poor intermittent connections, poor conductivity and be undependable. It also depends on what cheap means, some inexpensive pots are generally quite good/

If you buy a $99.00 guitar it's a good bet that changing the pots for something of better quality is gonna make a big difference, at least that's my "opinion".

[Orange Jackson]

If we're talking percentage of improvement points ( :poke: ), then the types of tones and how you like to set up you amp will play pretty big differences. As purely random samples, if you have an SG clone with covered HBs and 500k mini pots going into a Dual Rectifier with the gains set high, then getting the best 500k pot on the planet probably won't even change your tone 1%. On the other hand, if you have an late 80s Korean Squier with 500k mini pots going into a super choice Blackface Vibrolux then changing to CTS 250k pots and a .047 cap will likely transform that guitar. I mean a pretty radical difference. Granted, we're changing values here, but still... same cost outlay. In scientific terms, I'd be willing to bet if you recorded a random guitar through a random amp, then replaced the pots with the same value pots but top notch quality and then nudged the treble on the amp up 0.5, you couldn't tell the difference in the recorded tones. At least difference in the actual mechanics of the performance (how hard was the pick attack on that one note, did the guitarist hold the vibrato longer on that note) would be a bigger difference. On the other hand, if you spend $20 on 4 quality pots and $10 on a couple nice paper in oil caps and you think it makes you sound better, then it probably DOES make you sound better because you have a little more confidence in your tone.

 

With all due respect, You are discussing 500k vs 250k Plus caps, and the difference that you can expect to find there.

But I really want to focus on two like values of differing quality pots for the time being.

 

Sounds like the variance in that rating could be a real issue with the cheaper pots, and that is good to know.

 

If we found two pots that had the same measured rating at 500K, one cheap and one not, is there a difference in tone? That I would love to know.

[Orange Jackson]

If anyone wants to check it out, here is a link to the original discussion on the topic that got me going,

 

I think "BAARON" makes interesting points, but I don't know if he is right.

 

(Conflicting opinions and it kind of turns into a {censored} fest.)

http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=79726.msg659822

[cratz2]

 

If we found two pots that had the same measured rating at 500K, one cheap and one not, is there a difference in tone? That I would love to know.

 

 

I've never done a comparison myself, but with my 12 years of formal scientific training, I'd say if you had two pots and they both measured exactly 500k, but one was a $1 mini pot and the other was a $20 cryogenic treated jobbie, they sound sound 99.378% the same.

 

If you want more treble through the guitar, I'd buy like 4 pots, measure them and use the two with the highest values. Or I'd consider going to a mega ohm pots. Actually, I'd likely replace the pickups with something more suited to the tones I was after.

[Elias Graves]

I think there are a ton of variables there and narrowing them down is impossible. We're going to see a lot of people with a lot of different experiences. It probably comes down to the specific pot you're pulling out vs the specific pot you're putting in. The two times I've done it, there were big changes but I wouldn't make a blanket claim that it's always the case. Maybe if you had a good mini pot and swapped it for a bad CTS, you might even go backwards.

 

Bottom line, I think, is that it will have some impact but predicting it reliably is impossible.

 

EG

[jimwratt]

there's the variance in actual resistance to be considered - ie: most electrical components values are within some +/-% tolerance of a target value, lower quality components will vary more than higher quality components. Thus, a higher quality potentiometer will generally be closer to the target resistance value, while a lower quality pot might be further off (yet still within its "tolerance" range). Certainly, you may get a low-quality pot that just happens to be right on the mark - its just more likely that a hi-quality pot will more often be closer to that target value. So that 250K pot might not be exactly 250K. This matters because the Value of resistance in the circuit affects the tone. Now, HOW MUCH it matters is subject to much debate and personal preference.

 

The most reasonable answer to the OP's question hands down.

[Orange Jackson]

Thanks everyone.

[BigBone]

OT, I see you're in St Louis. My son lives there, works as a paramedic and at some tattoo shop.

[sleepeatplay]

All my cheapies have had the harnesses upgraded to quality full size pots. The thing I noticed, capacitors aside, is that the guitars all sounded fuller and "more open". As far as tone goes, that is up to the pickups and caps to handle that department. IMO.

One more note. The guitars are a Hell of a lot less noisy with good pots.

[Bert-O-325]

The most reasonable answer to the OP's question hands down.

 

THANK you!

[etawful]

 

there's the variance in actual resistance to be considered - ie: most electrical components values are within some +/-% tolerance of a target value, lower quality components will vary more than higher quality components. Thus, a higher quality potentiometer will generally be closer to the target resistance value, while a lower quality pot might be further off (yet still within its "tolerance" range). Certainly, you may get a low-quality pot that just happens to be right on the mark - its just more likely that a hi-quality pot will more often be closer to that target value. So that 250K pot might not be exactly 250K. This matters because the Value of resistance in the circuit affects the tone. Now, HOW MUCH it matters is subject to much debate and personal preference.

 

 

This is the correct answer.

 

I've seen high end CTS pots vary as much as 20% from their spec (i.e. I've seen 500k pots measure closer to 400k).

 

On cheap pots, I've seen even larger variances (I've seen 250k pots that measured under 180 and others that measured over 325).

 

Now how much audible difference this makes is arguable, but I have noticed that with higher end pots, you get a more accurate measuring of resistance, and (at least in my opinion) they seem to leech less from the signal when full open.

 

As to functionality of the pots, I've noticed that on good pots, you get a more even sweep from minimum to maximum settings and that you will notice much less abrupt changes than you will with cheap pots (where you can sometimes go from full on to nothing in less than 1/4 turn of the knob).

 

I think the better pots are well worth the additional investment insofar as tone goes, and I think you get a lot of return for a relatively small investment.

 

Now, as far as the difference in caps between say old bumblebee caps, current orange drops, etc. I can't really say (I do know that orange drops are a far cry above the tiny ceramic caps that many mfg. use).

[PanaDP]

I have never heard a difference changing the pots out, except when the old ones are worn out. I do it for durability reason, not tone reasons.

[PlinytheWelder]

The CTS pots in guitars, even the RS ones, are pretty low in the potentiometer hierarchy.

In amps, the better ones are mil-spec sealed jobs like these from PEC...

They go for around $15 new. Other pots can cost as much as a new SX.

[the_bleeding]

im sure there is a difference in tone. You can get 2$ pots and 50$ pots. And if you experiement with them in hifi stereos, you can hear a difference, but a guitar doesnt produce as wide a frequency range as a stereo. So yeah. Just my 2 cents.