Members Armitage Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 A cheap pot THAT MEASURES 500k, will sound exactly like an expensive pot THAT MEASURES 500k. 500k of electrical resistance is the same across a pot or across a dead dogs eyeball. A pot is a non reactive, non capacitive part (anywhere near the audio spectrum). Of course expensive pots are closer in tolerance (more likely closer to the value they say they are), and will last longer before they get noisy, and will have a better feel etc... Many times cheap pots are way off their claimed value... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jjpistols Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 {censored} cheap pots Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FXR Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 A cheap pot THAT MEASURES 500k, will sound exactly like an expensive pot THAT MEASURES 500k. 500k of electrical resistance is the same across a pot or across a dead dogs eyeball. A pot is a non reactive, non capacitive part (anywhere near the audio spectrum). Of course expensive pots are closer in tolerance (more likely closer to the value they say they are), and will last longer before they get noisy, and will have a better feel etc... Many times cheap pots are way off their claimed value... And that would be great if we all played our guitars with the volume off. What's more important is the quality of the pot and how well it works when not at full resistance. The original question was how the pot might compare at zero resistance, full open. If resistance is just resistance, why are there so many different types of resistive and conductive materials for different applications? Wouldn't you agree that gold, silver, copper, steel, aluminum all have different signal carrying properties? 500K ohms may be 500K ohms, but it does not mean the signal is not affected by the conductive and resistive materials. People who are anal, and likely justifiably, about resistor types and cap types are proof of the concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zachoff Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 A cheap pot THAT MEASURES 500k, will sound exactly like an expensive pot THAT MEASURES 500k. Tone-wise, maybe... But the two times I've replace the electronics in my guitar and bass, their output increased. Same levels on the amps, same settings, etc and the tracks recorded with the new electronics were louder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members danbomb Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 I would say if you don't use your pots and play full out all the time the difference will only be noticeable if the spec is way off. If you constantly tweak your volume setting the difference can be huge. Wiring can make a huge difference as well as audio taper. If you play a LP with linear taper 300K pots they will act more like switches and anything other than 10 will cut a lot of high end. Switch to 500K audio taper and 50's wiring and suddenly the entire range of the pot is useful and you can get way more sounds out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Armitage Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 And that would be great if we all played our guitars with the volume off. What's more important is the quality of the pot and how well it works when not at full resistance. The original question was how the pot might compare at zero resistance, full open. If resistance is just resistance, why are there so many different types of resistive and conductive materials for different applications? Wouldn't you agree that gold, silver, copper, steel, aluminum all have different signal carrying properties? 500K ohms may be 500K ohms, but it does not mean the signal is not affected by the conductive and resistive materials. People who are anal, and likely justifiably, about resistor types and cap types are proof of the concept. Wow, you might want to learn about guitar wiring before you shoot your mouth off. Volume pots are at their MAXIMUM resistance when on 10. Second, you're right about differences for different applications, but he's talking about in a guitar and it's effect on tone. Not whether it's water tight, will handle a thousand watts or will stay on spec for a million turns. And different materials have a different resistive value, that's why you buy and measure one for the value you want. So if you measure one made of gold at 500k and one made of dirt at 500k, it's still 500k. It's like putting 500 lbs of feathers or 500 lbs of lead on the other side of a teeter toter... there are differences, but not in their weight. P.S. I am anal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Armitage Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 Tone-wise, maybe... But the two times I've replace the electronics in my guitar and bass, their output increased. Same levels on the amps, same settings, etc and the tracks recorded with the new electronics were louder. Because your new pots were a different value then your old ones. Remember, you have to MEASURE them before you can say that. Just because a pot says it's 500k, that's usually plus or minus 10-20%, (it can be between 400k-600K), and that's a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members C-4 Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 Think of it this way: "Your tone is only as good as the weakest link in the chain". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FXR Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 Wow, you might want to learn about guitar wiring before you shoot your mouth off. Volume pots are at their MAXIMUM resistance when on 10. Second, you're right about differences for different applications, but he's talking about in a guitar and it's effect on tone. Not whether it's water tight, will handle a thousand watts or will stay on spec for a million turns. And different materials have a different resistive value, that's why you buy and measure one for the value you want. So if you measure one made of gold at 500k and one made of dirt at 500k, it's still 500k. It's like putting 500 lbs of feathers or 500 lbs of lead on the other side of a teeter toter... there are differences, but not in their weight. P.S. I am anal. DOH! yep, I'm backwards. It's how much is sent to ground. I still think, strongly, when we talk about tone, we're talking signal path stability and quality, not so much the resistance itself. Again, I'll cite the types of resistor composition choices that affect tone as proof of concept. One composition resistor at x ohms will have a different tone than a resistor of the same X ohms made of say metal film. Here's an amp guy talking about it. http://www.aikenamps.com/ResistorNoise.htm Don't forget that potentiometers are also resistive elements, and are almost always carbon composition, and generally are large values (such as 1MEG for the volume control). These can be a major source of noise in a guitar amplifier. For absolute lowest noise, conductive plastic element pots should be used, again, the lowest practical value, and the largest practical power rating. Based on that, what do ya think now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chaosStrings Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 Difference in tone?There can be one. Remember that potentiometer tolerances can go as high as +- 20%. This will have an influence on the filtering. For the better or for the worse, that cannot be defined a priori. However, you will often end up finding better the more expensive pot. Pots with same resistance will have equal filtering. All the rest (noise specs, mojo etc.) will have an absymal impact on sound. Can you hear a difference between two pots with the same resistance? I am pretty sure you have changed the capacitors, too. Those have a tolerance of 5 -10 %. So, do more expensive pots have different tone?Most likely yes.Do they have better tone?You decide, but try not basing your judgement on mojo and how much you spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Armitage Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 Based on that, what do ya think now? Like he said, it's how is it going to effect the tone in a guitar... not inside an amp with thermal changes, DC voltages, and you don't get wire wound pots (they can be reactive) in guitars... and at such a low voltage/low currents.. and you've got to be able to hear it. Human hearing is VERY limited... The question was spacific, so my answer is. Better quality pots tend to be more accurate, make less noise when they sweep, have a more accurate sweep, last longer, feel better... but that wasn't the question. BTW, CTS pots, considered a premium pot for guitars, IS a cheap pot too... Most people here think a pots physical SIZE has something to do with quality, when that (usually) only has to do with wattage... Also, a pot with a +-10% accuracy can be off by +- 10% (sounds obvious), but even one with +-20%... can still be perfect. Just because something CAN be way off, doesn't mean it is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members metal0822 Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 i skipped a few responses in the thread but here's what i think.the tone difference is probably minimal, although i have never done the upgrades myself. the difference i see is in the sweep. i have worked with a lot of equipment that uses pots, and the good ones are noticeably better than the cheap ones. how can i tell? the sweep has more variation in sound, feels much smoother throughout (with more resistance), and can look really old and still function great. that is the reason i would see for getting nice pots, durability, feel, and accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members maltomario Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 the good pots are definitely different than cheap pots. that being said, for a given measured resistance you dial in (therefore negating the effect of tolerance), the tone should not change noticeably. I mean for christ sakes its a freakin' RC circuit, not exactly high tech. The bigger difference between cheap/expensive pots is the 'feel' of the pot, the taper, its wiping mechanism, its durability, smoothness, and things like shaft construction / plating materials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FXR Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 Like he said, it's how is it going to effect the tone in a guitar... not inside an amp with thermal changes, DC voltages, and you don't get wire wound pots (they can be reactive) in guitars... and at such a low voltage/low currents.. and you've got to be able to hear it. Human hearing is VERY limited...The question was spacific, so my answer is.Better quality pots tend to be more accurate, make less noise when they sweep, have a more accurate sweep, last longer, feel better... but that wasn't the question.BTW, CTS pots, considered a premium pot for guitars, IS a cheap pot too... Most people here think a pots physical SIZE has something to do with quality, when that (usually) only has to do with wattage...Also, a pot with a +-10% accuracy can be off by +- 10% (sounds obvious), but even one with +-20%... can still be perfect. Just because something CAN be way off, doesn't mean it is... Forget resistance and tolerance and concentrate on construction materials. A pot made of crap could sound like crap at any resistance. I'm being anal about signal quality through conduction, not signal attenuation due to resistance. If we're going to be anal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Armitage Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 Forget resistance and tolerance and concentrate on construction materials. A pot made of crap could sound like crap at any resistance. I'm being anal about signal quality through conduction, not signal attenuation due to resistance. If we're going to be anal... Now THAT'S funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Armitage Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 Forget resistance and tolerance and concentrate on construction materials. A pot made of crap could sound like crap at any resistance. I'm being anal about signal quality through conduction, not signal attenuation due to resistance. If we're going to be anal... Now THAT'S funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lowbrow Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 If they spec properly in resistance I can see no reason why a cheap pot would sound different from a better one. The only reason might be a difference in capacitance, and I've no info on that. Mainly the reason to change to a higher quality pot has to do with feel, taper and longevity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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