Gibson Quality Decline

[cogdog]

The past month or so, I've attended various guitar shops all over tokyo and I've played Gibson Les Pauls and Edwards Les Pauls. I noticed that there's something extremely "lacking" about the Gibson's. What is it? I don't feel like I'm playing a platinum-quality guitar like I'm supposed to, unlike the Edwards ones that are just fantastically amazing. It's not bad, but I won't pay more than a thousand dollars for them. Are Gibson's declining in quality?

 

...hey Scotland Yard called and said they need you back ASAP

[Coralkong]

*YAWN*

[Flogger59]

It's a Gibson tradition from a way,way back to make, err, uhm, unique guitars. I remember a friend's mid 60's ES345 (not mine) where the headstock peak was about 1/2" off. It's still a great instrument. Look at old Ferraris from the 50's and 60's. They don't have bilateral symmetry because they beat the body panels out by hand.

[The Bear]

Holy Crap.

Give it a rest.

[MickSlick]

The past month or so, I've attended various guitar shops all over tokyo and I've played Gibson Les Pauls and Edwards Les Pauls. I noticed that there's something extremely "lacking" about the Gibson's. What is it? I don't feel like I'm playing a platinum-quality guitar like I'm supposed to, unlike the Edwards ones that are just fantastically amazing. It's not bad, but I won't pay more than a thousand dollars for them. Are Gibson's declining in quality?

 

I appreciate your post since you are in Tokyo and able to really try a bunch of examples to help confirm where the state of Japanese vs. Gibson / other guitars are right now. Did you try any Tokais? Are they still holding up in quality as well and how did they compare to the Edwards?

[curseoftruth]

Actually THAT'S a great example of "Face." I work in Robotics and have been in auto plants all over the world. Toyota is famous in the industry for doing invisible recalls (I forget the proper term off hand). If you have a Ford, and some part is known to go wrong, they'd send you a letter to bring your car in for a fix. Toyota on the other hand waited until you brought your car in for maintenance, then they'd do the work and you wouldn't know anything about it. Your oil change just took longer and there were three guys doing it... it just auto/prints on the work order. You'd think Ford makes crap because they called your car in for another fix, and Toyotas are great because they haven't. Until the lawsuits start from people who DON'T bring their cars into a Toyota dealer for work... and have been driving around with a known dangerous problem. "Face" doesn't always work. Sometimes you've got to stand up and say, we made a mistake... the Japanese aren't very good at that. It wasn't long ago when they'd kill themself for that kind of thing. P.S. Toyota is Sony in the 90s... in a race to the bottom.

 

You are just so way off, good grief. I worked for Toyota/Lexus for many years - in part and service (fixed operations management in dealerships). Get a clue before you post. This is how stupid {censored} gets propagated. First of all, almost every manufacturer has a warranty item they will replace from time to time, not just Toyota (every time I take my Chrysler in, they have warranty items to fix). You don't know how the auto industry works at all. The problems you call dangerous, the really are not and the instances of it happening are few and far between - let me restate, its dangerous if it occurs, chances of it occuring are minimal. You have more chance of blowing a tire and crashing than this "issue" happening. It's a liability and PR issue plain and simple, and considering we are talking issues that plagued other manufacturers years ago (you really need to understand the historical perspective of the specific warranty issue at hand - remember Audi and a similar problem that followed them for years and years), Toyota is going to pony up and bite the bullet early. A little bad PR and $$ for doing this now beats the hell of a a few people getting killed and having a huge expose' on 60 minutes - that would really kill their leadership position. Their stock took a temporary dive, will recover within a month or two. Don't be fooled, Toyota still makes the best cars on the road and will continue to do so AND will resolve any of the engineering, QA, and production issues. Just like Gibson continues to make some of the nicest guitars out there. I played a few of the new Traditionals last week, very, very, very fine instruments.

[Oldskool Texas]

You know, whenever someone does the "/thread" thing, it never works. It just goes on and on and on.

 

Yeah I know, but I thought it was worth a shot.

[Longhair]

If you give a greater tolerance, +/- 0.050 instead of the standard +/- 0.005, you no longer run into quality issues.

 

Where is the problem again?

[Guitar Heel]

Yeah I know, but I thought it was worth a shot.

 

usually ponchos are the best way to kill a thread, but even those haven't been working lately.

[-.^Silver^]

 

I love this particular model

 

... when I get the money, I may buy one

 

but my brother has a Gibson LP , and I think there is nothing wrong with it.. In fact, its pretty awsome ! I love playing it

 

... i've eard guys saying that they hate playing Edwards ... probably just a matter of opinion

[LaXu]

The past month or so, I've attended various guitar shops all over tokyo and I've played Gibson Les Pauls and Edwards Les Pauls. I noticed that there's something extremely "lacking" about the Gibson's. What is it? I don't feel like I'm playing a platinum-quality guitar like I'm supposed to, unlike the Edwards ones that are just fantastically amazing. It's not bad, but I won't pay more than a thousand dollars for them. Are Gibson's declining in quality?

 

I thought it was pretty interesting that when I was in Japan every band I saw seemed to be playing Fender or Gibson, even though Japanese factories churn out generally equal or superior quality instruments for less.

 

Based on the Gibsons I've seen, it seems USA and Japan had actually a much better selection of good ones, but that may be just because they get more of them than stores here in Finland. In any case it's still way too easy to find Gibsons with poor fretwork, too much neck angle and finish issues. Add to that the hollowed out bodies and the average modern Les Paul isn't exactly the coveted solid body guitar of the 50s/60s.

[Armitage]

You are just so way off, good grief. I worked for Toyota/Lexus for many years - in part and service (fixed operations management in dealerships). Get a clue before you post.

 

I've been in the auto manufacturing business for nearly 30 years... all over the world... and that's my experience. Like it or not.

[radomu]

I appreciate your post since you are in Tokyo and able to really try a bunch of examples to help confirm where the state of Japanese vs. Gibson / other guitars are right now. Did you try any Tokais? Are they still holding up in quality as well and how did they compare to the Edwards?

 

They rarely have Tokais these days. Most of the Japanese-made les pauls are generally Edwards or Epiphone Elitlist ones.

 

I thought it was pretty interesting that when I was in Japan every band I saw seemed to be playing Fender or Gibson, even though Japanese factories churn out generally equal or superior quality instruments for less. Based on the Gibsons I've seen, it seems USA and Japan had actually a much better selection of good ones, but that may be just because they get more of them than stores here in Finland. In any case it's still way too easy to find Gibsons with poor fretwork, too much neck angle and finish issues. Add to that the hollowed out bodies and the average modern Les Paul isn't exactly the coveted solid body guitar of the 50s/60s.

 

It's probably the brand name that's attractive. I'd rather have Edwards create guitars for me that has "Gibson" on the head, just to pretend I have the real {censored}.

 

Funny, I realized that too. The frets and the neck seem very poorly done in many of the les pauls I've played.

[yell03]

Yes, as has been established a thousand times, Gibson QC can be spotty. We've all seen good ones and bad ones and we've exhausted this topic. So here are your options: a) play a whole bunch of Gibsons until you find a good one. b) buy something else /thread, please?

 

Exactly!

 

Nothing else sounds like a Gibson, even a bad Gibson will sound better than a good Copy out of the box. BTW, I am talking about fairly high end Gibsons, not the cheaper under $1000 ones.

 

However, a bad Gibson just might not have the playability without a proper set-up, or in a worse case, even after a good set-up.

 

I currently have 5 Gibsons.

None had great playability out of the box, they sounded great, but were a bear to play.

After a $35 professional set-up all I currently own are GREAT sounding and have great playability.

 

However, the same goes for every Fender I have bought and any other guitar for that matter.

 

Quality Control, the guitar ships all over the world, through varying climates, going from hot to cold to warm to cool....

 

It is wood, things change.

 

The guitar will still sound great, but it might not play as well as it should.

Spend $50 and make it perfect for you.

 

I have also owned ESPs, Ibanez Prestiges, Carvins, Fenders, you name it.

 

Notice I have 5 Gibsons and 2 Fenders.

I must like {censored}ty guitars.

 

With that said, I bought a New Gibson Traditional Plus that I did not like the playability after a good set-up, the high E string was too far over on the fretboard for my liking.

I sent it back to Gibson and they sent me a new one set up how I like it, free of charge.

[-.^Silver^]

They rarely have Tokais these days. Most of the Japanese-made les pauls are generally Edwards or Epiphone Elitlist ones. It's probably the brand name that's attractive. I'd rather have Edwards create guitars for me that has "Gibson" on the head, just to pretend I have the real {censored}. Funny, I realized that too. The frets and the neck seem very poorly done in many of the les pauls I've played.

 

 

Very true , its very hard to find a Tokai these days.. And it's a shame 'cause Tokais are really nice guitars

[radomu]

Very true , its very hard to find a Tokai these days.. And it's a shame 'cause Tokais are really nice guitars

 

never played em before

[Brewski]

Beating a dead horse is what we do.

 

the real issue here is consistency. Gibson is obviously notorious for it's lack of consistency. to me it's also a price thing.

 

I understand the wanting to have the guitar of your heros but back in the day there weren't any other good guitars but Gibson's and Fender for the most part.

 

Nowadays there are so many solid players out there that SOUND as good as Gibsons (shut up with that Gibson sounds better than anything else - that's your opinion because you bought your "wannabe" guitar)

 

Now - I understand that a full 3/4" maple cap is worth more in tonality and looks than a veneer top, so some increase in price is understandable. No guitar unless owned by someone and signed is worth more than $1700.00!! NONE.

 

Something like an Agile AL4000M with a full maple cap costs $899.00 - too much IMO for a Korean guitar but that same guitar made in America should cost $1500.00 to $1700.00 but no more.

 

So here I am babbling about price - reality is Gibson is still riding the ole days and there quality control from day to day is suspect so IMO - buy something else.

[yell03]

Beating a dead horse is what we do. the real issue here is consistency. Gibson is obviously notorious for it's lack of consistency. to me it's also a price thing. I understand the wanting to have the guitar of your heros but back in the day there weren't any other good guitars but Gibson's and Fender for the most part. Nowadays there are so many solid players out there that SOUND as good as Gibsons ( shut up with that Gibson sounds better than anything else - that's your opinion because you bought your "wannabe" guitar) Now - I understand that a full 3/4" maple cap is worth more in tonality and looks than a veneer top, so some increase in price is understandable. No guitar unless owned by someone and signed is worth more than $1700.00!! NONE. Something like an Agile AL4000M with a full maple cap costs $899.00 - too much IMO for a Korean guitar but that same guitar made in America should cost $1500.00 to $1700.00 but no more. So here I am babbling about price - reality is Gibson is still riding the ole days and there quality control from day to day is suspect so IMO - buy something else.

 

No you shut up:lol:

 

Seriously, I have played everything and IMHO Gibsons and Fenders sound superior to everything else that is production.

Sure, some small Custom Shop luthiers use great woods and great pick-ups, but you will pay for it.

 

However,

I have found that Gibson and Fender sound the best to me.

You can spend $3000+ for a PRS or a Ibanez Jem, but they sound thin in comparison IMO.

 

Sure, if you play death metal and scoop out the mids, it doesn't really matter what you play, the amp will get your sounds.

[truckdub]

Do the Japanese language forums have threads about how bad the QC is with Ibanez or ESP compared with American made Gibson or Fenders?

 

Lets give this a rest already....at least until some "news" pops up.

[m90guy]

I've lived in Japan, and I have played alot of guitars in Japan. I have played alot of Edwards, hell I even own an Edwards.

 

My personal findings. If your in Japan and you buy a product that does not have "made in Japan" on it, then guess what? It isnt made in Japan. Edwards are not made in Japan. They are made in China. Its a fact that alot of Edwards fanboys here dont want to admit.

 

Next would be that most of the Edwards I have seen held, played, including my own were good deals 5 years ago, but now with the price increase and the dollar getting its ass kicked now, they are no longer a deal. At $1000 they suffer the same QC problems that many LTD's suffer from.

[smorgdonkey]

What? There are issues with Gibson's quality??!!

 

I've never heard that before either. I'm with the other 90+% on this one.

[Brewski]

How do you think Gibsons and Fenders sound the way they do? Is it their special wood that no one else uses? their special glue or paint? Is it their unique hardware? Is it the manufacturing process?

 

NOPE - its opinion and taste. PRS's sound thin because that's what Paul was going for - a guitar that is diverse in many ways that wasn't the Gibson or Fender sound.

 

as far as $3000.00 for an Ibanez Jem - that would be insane!! they are just enhanced RG320's with a vine inlay. Didn't say I'd do that either and my PRS was bought used also not worth $2500.00 IMHO.

 

Les Paul was looking for a sound, he got it - like 50 yrs ago and YES that tone can be found anywhere. Same with Leo's tone.

 

So there - Nah!

 

No you shut up:lol: Seriously, I have played everything and IMHO Gibsons and Fenders sound superior to everything else that is production. Sure, some small Custom Shop luthiers use great woods and great pick-ups, but you will pay for it. However, I have found that Gibson and Fender sound the best to me . You can spend $3000+ for a PRS or a Ibanez Jem, but they sound thin in comparison IMO. Sure, if you play death metal and scoop out the mids, it doesn't really matter what you play, the amp will get your sounds.

[yell03]

How do you think Gibsons and Fenders sound the way they do? Is it their special wood that no one else uses? their special glue or paint? Is it their unique hardware? Is it the manufacturing process? NOPE - its opinion and taste. PRS's sound thin because that's what Paul was going for - a guitar that is diverse in many ways that wasn't the Gibson or Fender sound. as far as $3000.00 for an Ibanez Jem - that would be insane!! they are just enhanced RG320's with a vine inlay. Didn't say I'd do that either and my PRS was bought used also not worth $2500.00 IMHO. Les Paul was looking for a sound, he got it - like 50 yrs ago and YES that tone can be found anywhere. Same with Leo's tone. So there - Nah!

 

You sound like a 46 year old guy like me:lol:

 

Check out my post in another thread, I gave you some great advice on an amp in the $500 range.

[jbandy10]

I've played close to 100 Gibsons, probably 30 Japanese copies, and about 30 other "mixed copies."

 

The Japanese ones are consistently just as good, and sometimes just plain better than the American Gibsons.

[radomu]

Do the Japanese language forums have threads about how bad the QC is with Ibanez or ESP compared with American made Gibson or Fenders? Lets give this a rest already....at least until some "news" pops up.

 

YES

 

Every time I go to a guitar store and discuss guitars, they always praise Fender USAs and Gibsons over Japanese made guitars

 

I've lived in Japan, and I have played alot of guitars in Japan. I have played alot of Edwards, hell I even own an Edwards. My personal findings. If your in Japan and you buy a product that does not have "made in Japan" on it, then guess what? It isnt made in Japan. Edwards are not made in Japan. They are made in China. Its a fact that alot of Edwards fanboys here dont want to admit. Next would be that most of the Edwards I have seen held, played, including my own were good deals 5 years ago, but now with the price increase and the dollar getting its ass kicked now, they are no longer a deal. At $1000 they suffer the same QC problems that many LTD's suffer from.

 

Bollocks, they are made in Japan. The cheaper end ESPs, like Grassroots, are made in China.