Ibanez Jem or Suhr Modern?

[Tezmond]

Suhr without question

[paulojcduarte]

 

As far as quality goes, suhr's are pretty hard to beat. They're all handmade where the JEM just a regular expensive ibanez. Their pups are also fantastic!

 

 

Ibanez are cnc'd, but take a look at the factory.

 

 

 

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

[soundcreation]

 

 

 

Yeah suhrs are definitely not hand made....from their own website..

 

http://suhrguitars.com/staff.aspx

 

maybe suhrs get a little more hands on finishing,...I don't know...but for the kind of money they charge I really don't understand what sets them apart from any other CNC shop. Aside from being american made..which does not justify that much of a price difference.

[paulojcduarte]

Yeah suhrs are definitely not hand made....from their own website.. http://suhrguitars.com/staff.aspx maybe suhrs get a little more hands on finishing,...I don't know...but for the kind of money they charge I really don't understand what sets them apart from any other CNC shop. Aside from being american made..which does not justify that much of a price difference.

 

 

Fujigen, imho is probably one of the, if not the best guitar factory in the world. (Production line, not luthier small shop thing, that's another world)

 

I'm really gassing about this model atm.

 

http://en.item.rakuten.com/k-gakki/fgn-ls10r-fch/

 

 

[saijo]

j custom

[Mark Wein]

Whoops! Thanks for the heads-up! Wow, those Modern pictures are stunning. Ah, thanks for the tip! Alder + Evo vs. Basswood + Breed. Guess the next step is to start including prices in the equation. Can you get a Modern for $2500? Those super-pretty ones look like they're $3k+

 

I own both an older RG and a couple of Suhrs...the Suhrs are unbeatable in this equation.

 

Try getting a price on one through www.tonemerchants.com

 

They gave me a 30% off list "street price" on both of my guitar builds...

[scolfax]

 

I heard suhrs are all CNC'd. CNC'd in america like PRS...but CNC'd none the less. Can you confirm they are handmade?

 

 

It's counterintuitive. The highest-end stuff is CNC'd, and the lower-end stuff like SX's are mostly handmade.

[scolfax]

I own both an older RG and a couple of Suhrs...the Suhrs are unbeatable in this equation. Try getting a price on one through www.tonemerchants.com They gave me a 30% off list "street price" on both of my guitar builds...

 

Thanks! I think that settles it. I have a '91 Japanese RG that I love, and was afraid that spending $2500 for an Jem might not be enough of a step up.

 

That blue Suhr up there for $2900, with a possibility of 30% off sounds like a great deal!

[Mark Wein]

 

Thanks! I think that settles it. I have a '91 Japanese RG that I love, and was afraid that spending $2500 for an Jem might not be enough of a step up. That blue Suhr up there for $2900, with a possibility of 30% off sounds like a great deal!

 

 

No Prob! I love my two guitars from them. The 1989 RG550 is a fun guitar but not nearly as useful or versatile as the Suhr is....

 

 

I wish I could have you tell them that "Mark sent you" but they've changed ownership this year and I have no mojo over there anymore.

[scolfax]

So Mark, what kind of body wood is in your Suhr?

[Mark Wein]

So Mark, what kind of body wood is in your Suhr?

 

 

The Tele is a one piece Swamp Ash body and one piece maple neck, the strat is 2 piece Alder with a maple/rosewood neck:

 

 

 

 

 

Suhr Classic

 

 

 

 

Here is a quick recording I did yesterday with the Tele on both guitar parts:

 

http://markweinguitarlessons.com/soundfiles/sludge.mp3

[scolfax]

Wow! Those are beautiful!

[metallica_00]

 

Yeah suhrs are definitely not hand made....from their own website.. http://suhrguitars.com/staff.aspx maybe suhrs get a little more hands on finishing,...I don't know...but for the kind of money they charge I really don't understand what sets them apart from any other CNC shop. Aside from being american made..which does not justify that much of a price difference.

 

 

I don't really understand why it matters at all if they make the necks and bodies with CNC. If I take the same piece of wood it doesn't make a difference whether I painstakingly carve it by hand with a chisel with a chisel or run it though a CNC machine. It will sound exactly the same. So who cares what they use? Frankly, I'm down with a machine that can manufacture things to super close tolerances.

 

What does really matter is the quality of the woods and components used in a guitar, fretwork, finish work, all the details and design that go into a great guitar. I have never played a Suhr. But everything you hear about them is top notch. So I would imagine there is a lot of skill and care going into them, even if they do use a blasphemous CNC machine. Collings uses one too, and those are the best electric guitars I've ever played.

 

On the flip side, for all the love you hear about Fujigen...I owned a Fujigen-made Prestige Ibanez for awhile which I picked out of a group of several top of the line Ibanez guitars. They're nice guitars. I honestly don't think they're any better made than a decent example of a Fender or Gibson (albeit they're probably more consistent).

[Ferdinandstrat]

 

j custom

 

 

Actually, this is a pretty good idea.

[Mark Wein]

Wow! Those are beautiful!

 

Thanks!

 

The strat is really just a "strat" but the Tele turned out really nice...I wanted something simple and not too blingy but when I opened the case when I went to pick it up I was floored with how it looked. I own plenty of ugly guitars that are mine because they sound good but the Tele was the perfect combination of tone, playability and looks.

[soundcreation]

 

I don't really understand why it matters at all if they make the necks and bodies with CNC. If I take the same piece of wood it doesn't make a difference whether I painstakingly carve it by hand with a chisel with a chisel or run it though a CNC machine. It will sound exactly the same. So who cares what they use? Frankly, I'm down with a machine that can manufacture things to super close tolerances. What does really matter is the quality of the woods and components used in a guitar, fretwork, finish work, all the details and design that go into a great guitar. I have never played a Suhr. But everything you hear about them is top notch. So I would imagine there is a lot of skill and care going into them, even if they do use a blasphemous CNC machine. Collings uses one too, and those are the best electric guitars I've ever played. On the flip side, for all the love you hear about Fujigen...I owned a Fujigen-made Prestige Ibanez for awhile which I picked out of a group of several top of the line Ibanez guitars. They're nice guitars. I honestly don't think they're any better made than a decent example of a Fender or Gibson (albeit they're probably more consistent).

 

 

 

Well I won't debate your points too much...I prefer guitars than spend more time in someone's hands than in a machine as I think the human touch provides very small inconsistencies that actually make guitars feel better than cookie cutter "perfect" necks. But that is just my personal preference as I like the idea of it better I suppose. You're right though that ultimately the important thing is the quality of the ingredients.

 

I guess the biggest gripe I have against companies like suhr, anderson, and PRS is that I thought CNC meant that you could make guitars cheaper because it allowed for higher volumes. I mean, that is why companies automate right? So why are they boutique prices?

 

I guess I just have less of a problem paying 3 grand for something I know spent a lot of hours being built hands on by one guy or a small team, than I would for something that rolled off the assembly line...even if the quality is identical. I guess I just don't think...based on specs...that the companies above offer anything better than a carvin...which seemed to be priced more reasonably.

[metallica_00]

 

I guess the biggest gripe I have against companies like suhr, anderson, and PRS is that I thought CNC meant that you could make guitars cheaper because it allowed for higher volumes. I mean, that is why companies automate right? So why are they boutique prices?

 

 

I do see what you are saying - by automating the production to some extent, shouldn't it be cheaper? I think CNC machines are pretty expensive, so at least for a company that doesn't do huge volume it may not make things much cheaper in the short run. And actually from a price point, if you look at Suhr - they've got the Pro Series, which from what I gather are the same as the real deal but only come in pre-configured options (no custom orders). And the prices on those are right in line with top-end Prestige/signature model Ibanez, for example. And I don't think a no-frills classic Strat type is much over $2K, fair compared to Fender CS. But I think once you get into those super-fancy high grade tops, Brazilian rosewood boards, etc that some of these companies offer on the custom stuff, that's when it gets really expensive.

[soundcreation]

 

I do see what you are saying - by automating the production to some extent, shouldn't it be cheaper? I think CNC machines are pretty expensive, so at least for a company that doesn't do huge volume it may not make things much cheaper in the short run. And actually from a price point, if you look at Suhr - they've got the Pro Series, which from what I gather are the same as the real deal but only come in pre-configured options (no custom orders). And the prices on those are right in line with top-end Prestige/signature model Ibanez, for example. And I don't think a no-frills classic Strat type is much over $2K, fair compared to Fender CS. But I think once you get into those super-fancy high grade tops, Brazilian rosewood boards, etc that some of these companies offer on the custom stuff, that's when it gets really expensive.

 

 

I'm sure those companies have their CNC machines running full tilt.

 

But there again is another thing that bugs me about them....the use veneer tops covered with poly and charge 3 grand. I actually think its the "highest" end suhrs, andersons and PRS's that are the biggest rip offs. I mean everyone makes fancy laminated flames and quilts these days and many do it at much lower prices. Sure most are asian made and I will admit to labor costs being higher in the US. But even cost of US labor can't explain the kind of markup they have on assembly line guitars. Again, Carvin can do it cheaper.

 

My opinion is that these companies are the really masters at marketing and PR. Much more than fender and gibson even. They portray themselves as "small builders" when really their production numbers are pretty large...yes not F and G large, but still it's not like these are some lutheirs building 2 or 3 guitars a month.

 

Like I said...I'm not trying to say they don't make beautiful guitars...they obviously do...but so do a TON of other people. So for me personally, if I were to lay out that kind of cash for a guitar, I'd want it to be special in some way. I would want to know that somebody slaved over it for like a month being super anal about every little detail. And I totally admit that if a CNC guitar had proper finishing/inspecting, selection of resonant woods..etc...then it would be just as nice a guitar. It's just to me those companies smell more of marketing than of a love for building guitars. I think the fact that suhr has jumped into the asian made waters is quite telling. Anderson will be next.

[scolfax]

Maybe I'm a victim of marketing, but my impression is that Suhr today is where PRS was in the early 90's. Somewhere between small and huge, making a reputation by cranking out quality stuff.

 

I do not have the bias against CNC machines that some of you do. I figure that they come up with the best neck possible, and then duplicate it with a machine so that I can get a neck as great as their best.

 

At work I've noticed my speed is closely matched to my quality. Things that take me a long time don't end up as good as the stuff I just breeze through. If it's possible to relate programming to guitars, then I think I'd rather have a great guitar made by a team over a week than a guitar that took one guy a whole month to make.

[soundcreation]

 

Maybe I'm a victim of marketing, but my impression is that Suhr today is where PRS was in the early 90's. Somewhere between small and huge, making a reputation by cranking out quality stuff. I do not have the bias against CNC machines that some of you do. I figure that they come up with the best neck possible, and then duplicate it with a machine so that I can get a neck as great as their best. At work I've noticed my speed is closely matched to my quality. Things that take me a long time don't end up as good as the stuff I just breeze through. If it's possible to relate programming to guitars, then I think I'd rather have a great guitar made by a team over a week than a guitar that took one guy a whole month to make.

 

 

Fair enough. I can respect your opinion. I disagree with much of it but I respect your view.

 

I would just say that I'm not saying CNC can't be good quality. Quality comes from standards set before the manufacturing begins. And I don't consider myself to be "bias against" CNC. I just think if they are being CNC'd they shouldn't cost that kind of dough because other companies have shown that it doesn't have to.

[Mark Wein]

Having been to Suhrs factory and given a tour by John in 2002 I have to say that these would be $6000 guitars if someone cut them by hand. They spend an incredible amount of time with each instrument regardless of the CNC automation as well as features like the Buzz Fieten Intonation system and the Plek setup.

[Stricken]

I voted Jem... I just dont like the look of the other

[soundcreation]

 

Having been to Suhrs factory and given a tour by John in 2002 I have to say that these would be $6000 guitars if someone cut them by hand. They spend an incredible amount of time with each instrument regardless of the CNC automation as well as features like the Buzz Fieten Intonation system and the Plek setup.

 

 

Well I don't think you can go that far. Hahn guitars are all hand built and cost around 3 grand.

 

But that is good to know that they get more attention than just running through the machines. Thanks for the first hand insight.

[Mark Wein]

But that is good to know that they get more attention than just running through the machines. Thanks for the first hand insight.

 

 

I really love my two guitars. Even though I play for a living I had never really spent such large (for me) money on instruments and I'm very happy with what I received.

[akapuli]

 

Well I don't think you can go that far. Hahn guitars are all hand built ...

 

 

AFAIK from CNC-d third party parts :-D

 

IMHO CNC is just a short'cut', nothing wrong with that, the luthiers could concentrate on other things. I saw personally how they work with CNC-machines in other industries, I think it's a gift to ensure consistent quality.