Ibanez Jem or Suhr Modern?

[soundcreation]

 

AFAIK from CNC-d third party parts :-D IMHO CNC is just a short'cut', nothing wrong with that, the luthiers could concentrate on other things. I saw personally how they work with CNC-machines in other industries, I think it's a gift to ensure consistent quality.

 

 

Not according to him. He claims to make all his metal parts in house and his finishes are second to none...aside from the japanese. I do admit information about how he does the bodies is a little unclear. In some interviews he hints that he mills the wood himself, but I've never seen him come right out and say it, so they could be 3rd party bodies. At this point I'll give him the benefit of the doubt based on major magazine articles that say he does "everything", but admit it's a little ambiguous. Even so I think his methods of building are some of the best in America right now.

 

As I said before, that "short cut" should save money...not cost a fortune. And what other things should lutheirs be concentrating on? I thought that was their job...to build guitars..not just "assemble" them.

 

I personally think what determines great guitars and consistency is the number of hours, per guitar, spent building. So companies or builders that allow the proper amount of time to build the best guitar they can, will be better than companies that have quotas to fill and put pressure on employees to meet deadlines.

[Suhr]

 

Fair enough. I can respect your opinion. I disagree with much of it but I respect your view. I would just say that I'm not saying CNC can't be good quality. Quality comes from standards set before the manufacturing begins. And I don't consider myself to be "bias against" CNC. I just think if they are being CNC'd they shouldn't cost that kind of dough because other companies have shown that it doesn't have to.

 

 

Please.....lets get educated on what a CNC is and what it is NOT

It is just a computer numerical controlled router

Guitars cut on CNC's are STILL handmade, no difference.

Who do you think does not use CNC? What does CNC have to do with a guitar being hand built? ALL guitars are "hand built", what matters is the quality of design, workmanship and the materials being used as well as the check points put into place by the designer or chief of operations and how much he really knows.

 

So for a simple understanding....

 

CNC uses a program instead of pin routing templates. We only use metal working CNC's for the tightest tolerances. The designer must have the additional skills to draw accurately and know how to operate the CNC. They are still handbuilt just as much as the guitars ever were. In fact many small builders with CNC's have fewer and more qualified people handling the instrument than the larger production facilities do. We only hire people with real experience in the industry. What next? no machine can touch the instrument? Chop the tree down with an AXE?

 

The misconception that guitars come off a CNC are ready to go is absolutely silly. We don't insert wood in one end and a guitar pops out the other.

 

Most large companies even though using wood working CNC's not Metal working CNC's might cut body perimeters on a CNC but not fret slots. It takes much longer to CNC fretslots compared to swing slotters. Obviously I would bet the accuracy on the CNC.

 

What does "handmade" mean? We don't use robot buffers like some companies do. When the guitar comes off the CNC it needs the same hand work by the same skilled people as it would coming off a pin router. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. EXCEPT ! People save fingers, and each fret slot is 100% accurate. It is way harder and more costly to get production running on CNC compared to pinrouters, the people who benefit are the consumers who get repeatable neck shapes and accurate fret placement. You would rather have every companies neck be different or deal with a company who has a large menu of repeatable options to select from?

 

We have no factory production lines, our workers have 10+ years experience each in the business, we use premium woods, 1/4swn necks, intense selection process, vibration analysis and have a lifetime warranty. A Modern pro might list at $2900 but sale price is $1995. Plus you can reach me anytime you want. I would never consider a guitar not made on a CNC because I'm a picky SOB and expect perfection whenever it is possible. I would never want a misplaced fret slot to distract me from playing or lack of manufacturers support to ruin my day. That is why I got into this business, I was tired of being screwed with inferior product.

 

Again... a CNC is just a tool, just like a hand router, pin router, band saw and is only useful in the right hands just the same as any of those tools are. One thing to remember.... By hand you could never produce the repeatable accuracy that a CNC can deliver. Whether or not that matters to you is your own choice but in some situations it is invaluable.

[FenderPusher]

Aw, what do you know n00b.

[weebz]

Thank you Suhr, may I have another?

[Mark Wein]

Hi John!

[headstash]

Nothing like getting a lesson from a real professor of guitar building! Thanks John. I'd also like to point out that A suhr guitar is built by one builder, not an asssembly line. an exerpt from their website:

"At Suhr Guitars, we are convin- ced that a hand built guitar can be produced utilizing New World technology. All our bodies and necks are made by us using state of the art CNC routers, 20 years of practical experience and hundreds of hours in programming. It is this total control that helps us produce one of the finest guitars available today. This, of course, does not replace the handwork still necessary to produce a fine guitar. Each guitar is made by one builder, no assembly lines here. Attention to detail, playability, consistency and tone are what we are all about. We believe in vintage truss rod construction, tight neck fits, reliable plain grain neck woods, thin finishes and plenty of options to please every style of player. Pickups offered include our own pickups, pickups custom built for Suhr Guitars by DiMarzio Pickups, Seymour Duncan models, and EMG."

[scolfax]

Wow, you can get a Suhr Modern for ~$500 less than a Jem!

[DenverDave]

Thank you for the CNC lesson John.

[Mark Wein]

Wow, you can get a Suhr Modern for ~$500 less than a Jem!

 

 

I think I hear a decision being made

[fanuvbrak]

John,
I don't know if you know him, but Chip Todd, who first used CNC at Peavey for their T series used to say almost the exact same thing you just did. It wasn't a guitar making machine, it was a more reasonable way to get the desired, consistent blanks for making a quality instrument.

Some guy standing at a router with a template is not better than a CNC routed blank.

[soundcreation]

 

Please.....lets get educated on what a CNC is and what it is NOT It is just a computer numerical controlled router Guitars cut on CNC's are STILL handmade, no difference. Who do you think does not use CNC? What does CNC have to do with a guitar being hand built? ALL guitars are "hand built", what matters is the quality of design, workmanship and the materials being used as well as the check points put into place by the designer or chief of operations and how much he really knows. So for a simple understanding.... CNC uses a program instead of pin routing templates. We only use metal working CNC's for the tightest tolerances. The designer must have the additional skills to draw accurately and know how to operate the CNC. They are still handbuilt just as much as the guitars ever were. In fact many small builders with CNC's have fewer and more qualified people handling the instrument than the larger production facilities do. We only hire people with real experience in the industry. What next? no machine can touch the instrument? Chop the tree down with an AXE? The misconception that guitars come off a CNC are ready to go is absolutely silly. We don't insert wood in one end and a guitar pops out the other. Most large companies even though using wood working CNC's not Metal working CNC's might cut body perimeters on a CNC but not fret slots. It takes much longer to CNC fretslots compared to swing slotters. Obviously I would bet the accuracy on the CNC. What does "handmade" mean? We don't use robot buffers like some companies do. When the guitar comes off the CNC it needs the same hand work by the same skilled people as it would coming off a pin router. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE. EXCEPT ! People save fingers, and each fret slot is 100% accurate. It is way harder and more costly to get production running on CNC compared to pinrouters, the people who benefit are the consumers who get repeatable neck shapes and accurate fret placement. You would rather have every companies neck be different or deal with a company who has a large menu of repeatable options to select from? We have no factory production lines, our workers have 10+ years experience each in the business, we use premium woods, 1/4swn necks, intense selection process, vibration analysis and have a lifetime warranty. A Modern pro might list at $2900 but sale price is $1995. Plus you can reach me anytime you want. I would never consider a guitar not made on a CNC because I'm a picky SOB and expect perfection whenever it is possible. I would never want a misplaced fret slot to distract me from playing or lack of manufacturers support to ruin my day. That is why I got into this business, I was tired of being screwed with inferior product. Again... a CNC is just a tool, just like a hand router, pin router, band saw and is only useful in the right hands just the same as any of those tools are. One thing to remember.... By hand you could never produce the repeatable accuracy that a CNC can deliver. Whether or not that matters to you is your own choice but in some situations it is invaluable.

 

 

Thank you for the reply. I appreciate the time you've taken to make this post. It is very informative.

 

I'm not sure about the first part of you're post because I believe I said the same thing. (maybe worded slightly differently.) That quality standards are established independently of the method used to make the guitar.

 

And I don't think I ever said I believed that a CNC guitar went in one end and came out the other a finished product. My issue was, after CNCing a body or neck, how much time is spent with it being finished. You're saying you give your employees the proper time to finish the guitars then great. I have no issue at all. And I'm also glad to hear you do the wood selection/vibration analysis etc...I think that is a very important part of what makes a great guitar. Forgive me if I missed it on your web site but you should mention these points more clearly as I think in your "about suhr guitars" section it's kind of hard to tell.

 

I also have a couple questions for you. And I'll qualify it with my opinion first for risk of getting mobbed by others on these boards. Personally I believe finish plays an important role in maintaining the resonance of the wood.

 

So my questions are; Why don't you offer nitro/oil finishes? Now I believe from what I've read that if finishes are the same thickness then there won't be any difference between the two. But I've also read that it's nearly impossible to shoot poly as thin. So question number two is...How thin do you shoot your poly finishes and do you seal them? Can you get thicknesses of 1 mil? I also realize at this point I'm being a bit picky and splitting some hairs as I'm sure the numbers are going to be close and in the end probably not make a whole hell of a lot of difference on a good guitar. But still...I much prefer nitro finishes even if it's just for feel.

 

I will finish by saying right now I'm really into the high end japanese builders. I think frankly they make the best guitars on the planet. I have a some that are shot with the thinnest nitro finishes you will ever see over unsealed wood and the resonance is amazing.

 

I understand your desire for perfection but I believe the kind of quality your talking about can be done without CNC as well.

 

Take a tour of the Bacchus factory....It's like 10 vids but very interesting..you can double click this one to see the rest..

 

[YOUTUBE]YCeOBI1gDwM&[/YOUTUBE]

 

With all due respect to your product I would put these guitars up against yours and they would easily compare in quality and workmanship. And they aren't even the highest end in japan. You could get brand new ones shipped to the US for 1500 bucks.

 

Once again I will say thank you for your post. It was very interesting and cleared up some questions for me about your company that I wasn't sure of and I appreciate you taking the time to do it.

[Guitar Heel]

I voted for that one that, you know, doesn't have a handle.

[akapuli]

I understand your desire for perfection but I believe the kind of quality your talking about can be done without CNC as well. Take a tour of the Bacchus factory....It's like 10 vids but very interesting..you can double click this one to see the rest..

 

 

Hint: 2nd video, the guy uses a machine tool.

 

Get out of your wine cellar. :-D

[fanuvbrak]

So my questions are; Why don't you offer nitro/oil finishes? Now I believe from what I've read that if finishes are the same thickness then there won't be any difference between the two. But I've also read that it's nearly impossible to shoot poly as thin. So question number two is...How thin do you shoot your poly finishes and do you seal them? Can you get thicknesses of 1 mil? I also realize at this point I'm being a bit picky and splitting some hairs as I'm sure the numbers are going to be close and in the end probably not make a whole hell of a lot of difference on a good guitar. But still...I much prefer nitro finishes even if it's just for feel. I will finish by saying right now I'm really into the high end japanese builders. I think frankly they make the best guitars on the planet. I have a some that are shot with the thinnest nitro finishes you will ever see over unsealed wood and the resonance is amazing.

 

 

So you can hear the difference in finishes?

 

What about the walls of the room where you play them? There has to be echo that's mixing with the sound. If you didn't use an oil based paint over an alcohol based primer, you've got dead walls and you're not truly experiencing your instrument.

 

Also, is there Tolex on your amp? What kind of adhesive was used to adhere it to the cabinet? Latex? Tear that {censored} off, man! You're destroying the pure nitro tones of your guitar.

 

Sand that glue off and use Lark vomit to paste rice paper onto your amp...this will give you purer tone.

 

For days.

[scolfax]

 

I understand your desire for perfection but I believe the kind of quality your talking about can be done without CNC as well.

 

 

I don't understand any of the points you tried to make. John made a slam-dunk argument that using the best CNC machines to cut fretslots will get you as close to perfection as possible. A machine beats out a human for repeatable accuracy any day.

[ToasterOven]

Lots of words.

 

 

You really believe all of this {censored}? Wow, you ate pretty much every wives tale hook, line and sinker. There a lot of overpriced, so called "boutique" builders that just LOVE guys like you. It keeps them in business, I guess.

[soundcreation]

 

You really believe all of this {censored}? Wow, you ate pretty much every wives tale hook, line and sinker. There a lot of overpriced, so called "boutique" builders that just LOVE guys like you. It keeps them in business, I guess.

 

 

You're entitled to your opinion. Enjoy what ever guitar it is you play.

[soundcreation]

 

So you can hear the difference in finishes? What about the walls of the room where you play them? There has to be echo that's mixing with the sound. If you didn't use an oil based paint over an alcohol based primer, you've got dead walls and you're not truly experiencing your instrument. Also, is there Tolex on your amp? What kind of adhesive was used to adhere it to the cabinet? Latex? Tear that {censored} off, man! You're destroying the pure nitro tones of your guitar. Sand that glue off and use Lark vomit to paste rice paper onto your amp...this will give you purer tone. For days.

 

 

Did I say I could "hear" a difference?

 

Anyway I won't get into it (to much) with you because you obviously couldn't be bothered to read properly what I said and there was just another thread on this very subject. What's funny is the guy your trying to defend doesn't agree with you either...from suhr's own web site:

 

The very thin layers of paint means the woods can breathe and resonate, contributing greatly to the liveliness and the characteristic acoustic brilliance of Suhr instruments

 

http://www.suhrguitars.com/colors.aspx

 

LOL...you going to CC your snarky little post to John and tell him he's full of {censored} too?

 

If you don't think the thickness of finish makes a difference in a guitars resonance then fine...enjoy what ever guitars you play.

[akapuli]

I never said they didn't. Is it CNC? Not to mention those guitars are cheaper than suhrs so I'm not really sure what the hell your talking about with the "wine cellar" comment.

 

 

The only difference that the operator programed machine turns the piece instead of the operator. It's really not a big deal. Your video doesn't show 'handmade' process either.

 

Wine cellar = corksniffer's paradise :-D

[soundcreation]

The only difference that the operator programed machine turns the piece instead of the operator. It's really not a big deal. Your video doesn't show 'handmade' process either. Wine cellar = corksniffer's paradise :-D

 

 

I know.

 

Did you only watch the one video? I mentioned you could link to youtube to see all of them. There is like 13 of them.

 

As I said before, if we are going by price then suhr's are way more "corksniffer" than bacchus.

[strtdv]

I don't worry about CNC.

 

I remember seeing a local stonemason on TV who hand carves all his work talking about using power tools (grinders and disk cutters) for roughly shaping the stone.

 

He said that the part he uses the power tools for is all donkey work that anyone could do anyway, and that no part of the final surface is finished by power tools, all by hand.

 

I feel pretty much the same about guitars. Anyone can cut a body blank, so why not let a machine do it, and you still have all the sanding and finishing to do by hand.

[C-4]

Suhr for sure!
Japanese guitars are terrific, but we are just comparing a JEM to a Suhr.
I believe Suhr guitars can stand against any other company's guitar. I do not play one at present, but I would not exclude thinking about owning one in the future.

[straycat113]

Suhr hands down. But it will cost you a small fortune.

[scolfax]

 

All I'm saying is, with proper QC it is possible to make perfect guitars without CNC. Each one might be slightly different but they will still all have amazing quality.

 

 

How can two guitars with "slightly different" fretslot positions both be perfect?

[soundcreation]

I never said you did. How can two guitars with "slightly different" fretslot positions both be perfect?

OK...scoflax...by your definition...fine, they can't be perfect..

but I'd buy you a bacchus if you could tell a difference as a player.