Members offramp Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 Maybe the best engineer of all is the one who's a big enough asshole to say "Go take some singing lessons before you bother setting foot in my studio, punk!" Ah. Fletcher, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted May 25, 2010 Author Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 Ah. Fletcher, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members offramp Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 You understand what I was eluding to. I think if you take it from a historical point of view, Many early Engineers were the best in the business from the electronics and audio end. Hell they had to build the consoles and nearly all the equipment themselves just to record. There wasnt a whole lot of prefab stuff. When something went wrong, they were the guys crawling under the thing to fix it. That would be like a guy writing all his software for recording, Doing the recording, and getting a hit record from it today. Quite an amazing feat we should all revere. I consider an audio engineer being able to wear all those hats. They may have gotten their degree in electronics which is a branch of physics but applied it to a new and specific industry. I'm sure alot may have been involved in early broadcasting, radio TV, Film etc as well where they honed their trade. Especially for the larger studios who were already giants. I do suppose alot of companies classify their employees with titles. I've had many including engineer, Vice President, Manager, Technician, Customer Service Rep, Curriculum Specialist, Producer, Director, Plus maybe a dozen more I dont remember. At the time I considered it pretty novel when someone asked my work title and see their eyebrows go up with the answer. But you always know the titles is often just a companies way of structuring their pay structure and had nothing to do with your actual credentials, other than the actual work you might have done. I suppose Audio recording is a bit more susceptable to bending the truth in view of the publics perception. When someone asks you what you do for a living, you size them up and the reply to a novice may be different to a reply to a pro in the industry. Telling a novice you're an audio engineer, its like, OK I understand what you do for a living and all the mystique thats glorified by the general public gets heaped upon you. I dont begrudge anyone that. The glory in the audio business isnt nearly the same as the performing arts. The same goes for Musicians though. There was a time where you couldnt get decent work playing unless you could read music. Those who couldnt were stuck with playing dives and clubs on the other side of the tracks, and never really obtaning the stature of say a major classical composer. I suppose the class system of the time also influenced what was considered upper and lower job titles as well. Still I think we all set goals in our careers that we work to obtain, even if those goals to others have become gray or distorted by the masses. A title at one time was one of those goal posts. The question really is where do you go from there once its obtained? In a thread full of microscopic semantics, I found this refreshingly humorous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 Come on guys, You're getting way too serious now. If everyone threw out the same perspectives, there would be no reason for this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted May 25, 2010 Author Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 There's a big difference between "having different perspectives" and "bringing up pointless bull{censored} that only obscures the actual discussion and wastes people's time." Not to mention "ascribing the worst possible motives to everyone for everything they say and do." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 I applogize for posting in your thread then. I'll be sure to refrain from doing so in the future. You can continue with your discussion on how great everyones ears are undisturbed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 It's cool that Ken calls himself an Audio Buddha, but only for Ken. No, no, I'm an Audio Monk, a humble monk that is trying to reach sonic Nirvana, that's all. An Audio Buddha is someone who has attained Enlightenment, but due to the goodness of his/her heart, has remained here on earth as a teacher to show others the way to sonic Nirvana. I am not this person. I am simply a humble audio monk who sits at the feet of those who have learned far more than I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 Ah. Fletcher, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members franknputer Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 about the diploma thingy... for example a broadcast company will not employ any audio or video engineers who didn't finished academic studies and have a Master Degree; a MA is not enough for such jobs, but requires a ongoing further education. This jobs are highly payed. My current (and two former) employers would be surprised to hear that they're doing it wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted May 25, 2010 Author Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 No, no, I'm an Audio Monk, a humble monk that is trying to reach sonic Nirvana, that's all. Oh, I'm sorry for mis-stating your title. And I do think it's totally cool. It's just that if I'd titled the thread "The only real difference between a good Audio Monk and a hack is..." I don't think most people would know what I was talking about. And I've always felt that good (public) communication involves using terms that would be generally understood by the maximum number of people. Whereas I did think that everyone would know what I was talking about if I referred to such a person as an "engineer" in an audio forum. But apparently not. Apparently this term is now a symbol of self aggrandizement, trying to fool the gullible novice into thinking you have a degree, or steal the glory and mystique associated with the term "engineer". So what should I call such a person, then? And if we agree on something here, could I be sure that if I used it to start a thread in say, GearSlutz, they would also find it acceptable? If I walked into a studio and asked to talk to one of the _____ (fill in the blank), would they know it too? Because usually, if I say "May I speak to one of the engineers?" they know exactly what I mean. And in fact if I just say "I have some questions about your console" whoever answers the phone will usually just volunteer "Hang on, let me get one of the engineers." And if I pick up a random CD such as the recent reissue of Exile On Main Street, the credits say "Engineer: Andy Johns". And I really don't think Andy Johns has an engineering degree or is trying to fool anyone into thinking he does, nor does he need to. But I do think the word is effective at communicating what he did on the record. But ya just can't get into a discussion on HC without it turning into a debate on what the meaning of "is" is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 I totally realize that other people use the term to mean anyone who is mixing or sticking mics in front of someone regardless of whether they have that degree/title or not, and while I'm okay with that, just for my own personal thing, I try not to refer to myself as an "audio engineer" or "recording engineer". Using the term "engineering" is simply a way of communicating what someone is doing rather than going through this big definition, and I totally get that. I simply don't refer to myself as a recording engineer very often, but that's my own trip, y'know? And so much of it is to have fun with the whole "Blueberry Buddha" and "Sonic Nirvana" thing and tie it in that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 My hearing is still really good, but it hasn't deteriorated so much as it has changed. There are things I simply hear differently now than 25 years ago, which I'm sure is very common, and I'm not sure that's even a function of the ear itself so much as the relationship of the ear and the brain. Bingo. If I listen to music that I listened to as a kid, I pick up on all kinds of things I never heard before simply because my ears are better trained to listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 Originally Posted by Anderton This is an interesting thread. I've never thought of myself as a recording engineer, but as a musician who knows how to record, mix, and master. Well, me too, but I USE THE TERM BECAUSE IT'S WHAT PEOPLE CALL THAT PERSON. Seriously, I can't believe this thread has actually devolved into an argument over semantics because I used the term "engineer." My comment wasn't about the semantics. I think there is a difference between the typical perception of a "recording engineer" and a "musician." When I was doing a lot of session work, I got worked with tons of different recording engineers. They were, well, engineers. They usually did not play music, but came from more of an audiophile background. They really did care about slew rate, and attended the white papers on AES with titles like "Three-dimensional cobalt conditioning for directional tweeter hyperbaric cable quantization." So, they came to engineering from the angle of what is valid from a technical standpoint. It was up to the producer to decide what was valid from a musical standpoint. I come to engineering more for a musical standpoint. It's not that I'm unconcerned about whether preamp A is better than preamp B, but it's not as relevant to me as whether performance A is better than performance B. So for me engineering is more about efficiency and workflow so that inspiration can be captured as easily as possible, and it folds in more elements of production because of this. This isn't to say recording engineers don't pay attention to workflow...just that many of the ones I worked with would stop a take in order to find out why there's some audible hiss, whereas if the artist is hot to record, I'll hit record anyway and figure that I can reduce the noise later, or do another take after I've found the source of the noise, and hope that it's better than the original one. Or hope that the hiss gets masked by something else during mixdown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Beck Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 the recording engineer is part of a production team, and responsible for recording the music in the envisioned manner. I expect from a recording engineer that he understands the envisioned final sound, and accordingly records the music so the mixer can finalizes the mixes, all that of course in liaison with the producer and all other people present.Sieg Heil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members offramp Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 Sieg Heil! Ja. Yoo vill recohrd in ze manner in vich vee TELL yoo. Yoo vill interprit eggsZACTLY az vee interprit eet. Yoo vill READ OWUH MINDZ eggsZACTLY az vee eggSPECT yoo to READ OWUH MINDZ. Yoo vill show NO sign ahf indivijooality, yoo vill NOT dizreezpeckt your soopeeriors. Failure to do eggsZACTLY az vee tell yoo will haf unFOHtunate consequences foh you, und likelee yoah fahmilee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Beck Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 Ja. Yoo vill recohrd in ze manner in vich vee TELL yoo. Yoo vill interprit eggsZACTLY az vee interprit eet. Yoo vill READ OWUH MINDZ eggsZACTLY az vee eggSPECT yoo to READ OWUH MINDZ. Yoo vill show NO sign ahf indivijooality, yoo vill NOT dizreezpeckt your soopeeriors. Failure to do eggsZACTLY az vee tell yoo will haf unFOHtunate consequences foh you, und likelee yoah fahmilee. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 I come to engineering more for a musical standpoint. It's not that I'm unconcerned about whether preamp A is better than preamp B, but it's not as relevant to me as whether performance A is better than performance B. That's it with me as well. I approach it from a musician's point of view, and the recording process, as much as I've come to enjoy it, is a means to an end...the end being to make the most amazing, emotional music possible, having the recording enhance rather than hinder that process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 Maybe in a union shop or in "Old Europe." I've done two of the three of those jobs with no engineering degree. It's like any other job... you either know what you're doing or you don't. yes, of course, you where the chief technical officer of a broadcast company with 45'000 employees...... and I am the emperor of China!As Bruce said once after he left this forum, too many assholes here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 I think I am done too with this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 He's not done with this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lukenskywalker Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 Damn, I just came in from an early dinner of Eggs Benedict with Fresh New Jersey Asparagus, (in season now) with a glass or two of Pinot Grigio...it's 5:15 pm on the East Coast.What's with all you knowledgable people at each others throats?Maybe it's a good thing for debating purposes, but to have some 'Pillars' of this site threatening to leave is just not kosher.I have over a thousand posts here, but still consider myself a 'Noob' even though I am older than most of you...your Musical/Recording acumen sustains me and others just happening on to this site.What's a first time visitor to think when he/she walks into an Imbroglio like this one? huh, huh, huh?I was an asshole when I first landed on this site....trying to 'rectumfy' that...: Peace, Luke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Beck Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 ... and I am the emperor of China! Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 Maybe it's a good thing for debating purposes, but to have some 'Pillars' of this site threatening to leave is just not kosher. Rudy has offered/threatened/demanded to leave SSS about 742 times, Luke. No worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted May 25, 2010 Members Share Posted May 25, 2010 Rudy has offered/threatened/demanded to leave SSS about 742 times, Luke. No worries. Yup. He'll be back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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