What constitutes "cheapie" ?

[soundcreation]

Actually I'm more on your side than you think, I don't think corporations are "noble" by any stretch, and I'm glad that the Koreans evolved their labor force so quickly, all I'm saying is that I live in the real world. and I HAVE posted links and pics above from the Epi factory. Saien and Epi have worked together to create and own factories in China. They only employ a couple hundred people! This is not some 3000 person sweatshop. You know why? Electric guitars are a specialty luxury item made in limited quantities, not like T-shirts. You want to make a difference, stop buying Tshirts and shoes made in China. But also realize that by NOT buying those products, you are not empowering the workers AT ALL. When what the workers do has VALUE it gives them a lever. It's a delicate dance, this consumer capitalism...

Exploiting a couple hundred people is no better than exploiting a thousand. And as I said to the other guy, nice pics of the factory don't tell me anything.

Epiphones are not made in "limited quantities". They ARE the T-shirts of the guitar world and that factory is easily making thousands each month, don't kid yourself.

I don't buy tshirts and shoes made in china. (ok i lied...i do have a pair of shoes from china....but as I said before...i'm not perfect.)

And again the idea that some how my support of epiphone will 'trickle down' to them is laughable. The profits go straight into Henry's pocket and any profit in china goes straight into the pocket of the factory bosses.

The only way chinese people get labor rights is to fight for them themselves. So yes any money I do spend in china does go straight to the exploiters...not to the exploited.

Now if you can show me that epiphone do pay a living wage and they implement safety standards etc...then I will take back everything I have said here and give them the credit they deserve as leaders in workers rights in china. But judging by how henry treats his american workforce...I some how doubt you are going to find that information.

[CoqBelliqueux]

[YOUTUBE]KLni3wbndls[/YOUTUBE]

[ballhawk]

If I felt that Chinese laborers were being exploited I would do the opposite of boycotting Chinese goods. I would urge everyone to buy everything from China. Buy so much that companies can't keep up with the demand. Buy so much that companies have to compete for labor to meet that demand. Competition for labor raises wages. :poke: Putting the popcorn in the microwave as of now.

[CoqBelliqueux]

If I felt that Chinese laborers were being exploited I would do the opposite of boycotting Chinese goods. I would urge everyone to buy everything from China. Buy so much that companies can't keep up with the demand. Buy so much that companies have to compete for labor to meet that demand. Competition for labor raises wages. :poke: Putting the popcorn in the microwave as of now.

Here you go.

[humbuckerstrat]

[YOUTUBE] [/YOUTUBE]

[metalheadUK]

And talking about exploitation, you should see the pittance that your average music shop worker makes here.

Years ago, I was offered a job in a music shop demoing and selling guitars, and being responsible for the hire side.

I took the job because I wanted it, even though it meant earning LESS than I would have got just by signing on as unemployed.

And what about the {censored} rates of pay for live bands here...absolutely abysmal.

Some places still expect to get a full band doing a full show for less than a hundred quid.... and they get them.

People in bands want to play, and get mercilessly exploited.

We're ALL being exploited in one way or another.

[humbuckerstrat]

[BryanMichael]

Exploiting a couple hundred people is no better than exploiting a thousand. And as I said to the other guy, nice pics of the factory don't tell me anything. Epiphones are not made in "limited quantities". They ARE the T-shirts of the guitar world and that factory is easily making thousands each month, don't kid yourself. I don't buy tshirts and shoes made in china. (ok i lied...i do have a pair of shoes from china....but as I said before...i'm not perfect.) And again the idea that some how my support of epiphone will 'trickle down' to them is laughable. The profits go straight into Henry's pocket and any profit in china goes straight into the pocket of the factory bosses. The only way chinese people get labor rights is to fight for them themselves. So yes any money I do spend in china does go straight to the exploiters...not to the exploited. Now if you can show me that epiphone do pay a living wage and they implement safety standards etc...then I will take back everything I have said here and give them the credit they deserve as leaders in workers rights in china. But judging by how henry treats his american workforce...I some how doubt you are going to find that information.

Again, you are thinking SMALL. Thousands of guitars each month does NOT equal MILLIONS of T shirts, shoes, or plastic parts each month. Electric guitars are NO WHERE NEAR the numbers of other things that are produced in Chinese factories. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that Epiphone is running a sweatshop or that their labor conditions are sub par, or worse than many factories here in the US that make anything from gaskets to socks. Again, it is LUDICRIOUS to lump all of "China" together when China is such a huge country. That's like saying that the conditions of some random Chicken farm / processing plant in Louisiana = the conditions of the Honda plant here in Marysville Ohio. Both are in the USA. :rolleyes:

Speaking of unethical, USA Companies:
http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2009/nov/18/gibson_guitar_factory_raided_by_us_authorities-ar-19793/

[ballhawk]

People in bands want to play, and get mercilessly exploited.

I get your humor but it made me think....

That's not exploitation. You are being paid in two ways; money and self-actualization. We assign values to these and decide accordingly.

Exploitation would be if you were forced to play against your will. Freedom is also valuable.

[Angry Tele]

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

[Virgman]

I like Chinese guitars.

 

They're cheap.

 

I really don't give two {censored}s about the Chinese worker.

 

Just being honest.

[soundcreation]

Again, you are thinking SMALL. Thousands of guitars each month does NOT equal MILLIONS of T shirts, shoes, or plastic parts each month. Electric guitars are NO WHERE NEAR the numbers of other things that are produced in Chinese factories. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that Epiphone is running a sweatshop or that their labor conditions are sub par, or worse than many factories here in the US that make anything from gaskets to socks. Again, it is LUDICRIOUS to lump all of "China" together when China is such a huge country. That's like saying that the conditions of some random Chicken farm / processing plant in Louisiana = the conditions of the Honda plant here in Marysville Ohio. Both are in the USA. :rolleyes: Speaking of unethical, USA Companies: http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2009/nov/18/gibson_guitar_factory_raided_by_us_authorities-ar-19793/

Illogical argument. The potential exploitation of workers is irrelevant of the number of "whatever" they produce. So I don't know why you keep harping on the "tshirts vs guitar" thing, because it doesn't matter. Exploitation is Exploitation.

You're right. I can't prove epiphone exploits workers. But I also can't find any info that tells me their workers have benefits, and make a real living wage. So in light of that lack of information, I will avoid purchasing from them because of the well deserved (and proven) reputation of chinese manufacturing in other sectors. If gibson were to provide better information so I could know, then I might change my attitude, but until then there are far more guitars out there that are better than anything in china and provide me personally with a lot less guilt when buying.

And what's with all the US comparisons that you keep trying to apply to me? As if bad american labor practices defend YOUR position. They don't. Bad labor practices are bad labor practices..in China, the US, Canada, Mexico, Europe...where ever. And I am equally opposed to them too. But at least in the industrialized 'west' we have laws on the books making those kinds of practices much harder for companies to get away with.

Do you really believe the over all labor practices of the US are no different from china? That it's just "some companies are good and some bad everywhere"? Cause that's what it sounds like you are saying. And if that is true it is incredibly naive.

[BryanMichael]

Illogical argument. The potential exploitation of workers is irrelevant of the number of "whatever" they produce. So I don't know why you keep harping on the "tshirts vs guitar" thing, because it doesn't matter. Exploitation is Exploitation. You're right. I can't prove epiphone exploits workers. But I also can't find any info that tells me their workers have benefits, and make a real living wage. So in light of that lack of information, I will avoid purchasing from them because of the well deserved (and proven) reputation of chinese manufacturing in other sectors. If gibson were to provide better information so I could know, then I might change my attitude, but until then there are far more guitars out there that are better than anything in china and provide me personally with a lot less guilt when buying. And what's with all the US comparisons that you keep trying to apply to me? As if bad american labor practices defend YOUR position. They don't. Bad labor practices are bad labor practices..in China, the US, Canada, Mexico, Europe...where ever. And I am equally opposed to them too. But at least in the industrialized 'west' we have laws on the books making those kinds of practices much harder for companies to get away with. Do you really believe the over all labor practices of the US are no different from china? That it's just "some companies are good and some bad everywhere"? Cause that's what it sounds like you are saying. And if that is true it is incredibly naive.

Actually, yes. General working conditions vary depending on LAWS. Of course there are companies that avoid complying with those laws, etc.. but if you are trying to tell me that workers in various countries don't have a variety of "standards of living" then I am saying you are full of {censored}. Until you can PROVE that Epiphone are offering substandard conditions for their workers then you need to {censored} off. You are making accusations based on NOTHING.

[soundcreation]

Actually, yes. General working conditions vary depending on LAWS. Of course there are companies that avoid complying with those laws, etc.. but if you are trying to tell me that workers in various countries don't have a variety of "standards of living" then I am saying you are full of {censored}. Until you can PROVE that Epiphone are offering substandard conditions for their workers then you need to {censored} off. You are making accusations based on NOTHING.

Talk about putting words in my mouth. Suddenly industrial factory workers, turns in to an entire countries labor force. Nice debate technique.

And of course you've run out of arguments so you fall back on a point I've already admitted too, and propose it is the only correct position to have. So yes, I don't have any direct evidence against Epiphone/Gibson but I do have a {censored}ing TON of evidence against companies that manufacture in china and have shady practices, in nearly every area. So sorry the accusations are based on {censored} FAR {censored}ing away from nothing. And that's enough for me. So you can go {censored} yourself.. bitch.

[Brian Krashpad]

[Virgman]

Hells yeahs.

[golias]

I'm pro-sweatshop. The fastest way for a ridiculously-poor country to elevate itself to a slightly-poor country and eventually to a legitimate economy is with cheap labor, especially in manufacturing. Japan and West Germany did it. Then South Korea and Indonesia. Now Taiwan, China, and India are getting on board.

 

Do sweat shops "exploit" workers? Yes.

 

Would those workers like the factories to go away? Obviously not, because they keep showing up for work.

 

The most cruel thing you can do to a sweat shop worker is boycott their product, because then they stop being "exploited" and go back to starving in peace.

[BryanMichael]

Talk about putting words in my mouth. Suddenly industrial factory workers, turns in to an entire countries labor force. Nice debate technique. And of course you've run out of arguments so you fall back on a point I've already admitted too, and propose it is the only correct position to have. So yes, I don't have any direct evidence against Epiphone/Gibson but I do have a {censored}ing TON of evidence against companies that manufacture in china and have shady practices, in nearly every area. So sorry the accusations are based on {censored} FAR {censored}ing away from nothing. And that's enough for me. So you can go {censored} yourself.. bitch.

You are an empty capitalist whore. Put up or shut up- You GLEEFULLY consume every god-damn thing that is made in China (the computer you are using ALONE) Yet you make false accusations about a company that makes a teeny tiny number of luxury items. There is a ton of evidence against US companies that exploit workers, have piss poor working conditions, and don't pay a "living wage" - so why don't you do something useful and boycott products produced in the USA? It's the same {censored}ing logic- boycott an entire country because of {censored} at some factory. Why don't you boycott Nike, Umbro, Adidas, Apple, Microsoft, Wal-Mart, Hanes, and how about Tyson Chicken and GFI (ever eaten at McDonalds or Burger King?) How about Smithfield Foods in North Carolina? Do something useful and stop buying anything made or produced in the USA because "US Companies are exploiting workers" starting with eating FOOD, since that is where most of the exploitation comes from. Go stave yourself- if you get really hungry, you can suck a fart out of my asshole and at least get the sensation and robust flavor of having had a good meal.

[Guitar Heel]

fo realz

[DavidMgT]

Exploiting a couple hundred people is no better than exploiting a thousand. And as I said to the other guy, nice pics of the factory don't tell me anything. Epiphones are not made in "limited quantities". They ARE the T-shirts of the guitar world and that factory is easily making thousands each month, don't kid yourself. I don't buy tshirts and shoes made in china. (ok i lied...i do have a pair of shoes from china....but as I said before...i'm not perfect.) And again the idea that some how my support of epiphone will 'trickle down' to them is laughable. The profits go straight into Henry's pocket and any profit in china goes straight into the pocket of the factory bosses. The only way chinese people get labor rights is to fight for them themselves. So yes any money I do spend in china does go straight to the exploiters...not to the exploited. Now if you can show me that epiphone do pay a living wage and they implement safety standards etc...then I will take back everything I have said here and give them the credit they deserve as leaders in workers rights in china. But judging by how henry treats his american workforce...I some how doubt you are going to find that information.

 

 

We have had our differences in the past, but I agree 100% with this:thu:

[BryanMichael]

OH THE HORROR!!!!!

!

[Virgman]

OH THE HORROR!!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFFvrHHct70&feature=player_embedded# !

Wow! That is terrible. The inhumanity...

It reminds me of the Pennsylvania coal mines of yore when they had kids working 12 hour shifts.

[BryanMichael]

Wow! That is terrible. The inhumanity... It reminds me of the Pennsylvania coal mines of yore when they had kids working 12 hour shifts.

Yes, and those WORKING CONDITIONS!

[blingdogg]

I love how these threads always turn political and about exploitation.

 

 

[DavidMgT]

it is hard to talk about cheap guitars without talking about cheap labor & exploitation....I wonder why????