What constitutes "cheapie" ?

[blingdogg]

I know this is relative, but what exactly is a "cheapie"?

The only kind of guitar I own.

[twofoolsaminute]

Oh man, did I kill this thread?

No..it took a while to die, but I'm pretty sure RaVenCAD killed it.

[normh]

Cheap is a relative term. When you say cheap you must first ask in respect to what? Is the price, quality, country of origin, materials, etc.

 

I have a guitar that was meant for the $800 - $1200 market that I bought new from the dealer for $226 with a hard case and shipping (a dealer I trust). I had a 1983 Gibson Silverburst and a 1983 Gibson SG Custom I paid about $690 each new. I just sold my 1973 Ibanez 2613 that my dad paid about $500 for as a long ago birthday present. I built a guitar that has $300 worth of wood in it and $800 of electronics, not to mention the many hours building it without any power tool. My go to is a 2004 Ibanez GAX 70.

 

So how do I define cheap? My s101 that cost $226 and is Chinese manufactured has real MOP inlays, six ply body and headstock binding, single ply neck binding, mahogany body and neck with a maple cap, decent though not great electronics and tuners, and is very well built.

 

My GAX 70 has a mahogany body, three piece maple neck, poor factory pups, mid range electronics, a terrible bridge, saddle, and nut. All of the problems I repaired by replacement and have a good guitar.

 

Both the SG and LP I sold within six months because after the initial flush, I thought they were terrible.

 

My first two guitars were really terrible, a Cornet classical, and a no name electric made with a real plywood body and unidentified neck wood that cost $75 in the late 60's early 70's.

 

As we see, cheap is defined by many things. I define it by build quality and not name brand or origin.

 

My friend has a 30's or 40's Kalamazo that he uses funny string arrangements with (unusual mixture of steel, bronze, and nylon) strings with. It was thought to be cheap when new. Now it is sought after, sounds and plays great. I has seen some work, but it is a good guitar.

 

So just what is cheap. Only thing I can say I think it is just plain bad build quality.

[RaVenCAD]

No..it took a while to die, but I'm pretty sure RaVenCAD killed it.

 

 

Fine by me.. Most people don't understand why I dislike Chinese imports so much. I'm ok with that, and it won't change a single thing about my buying habits. I have zero, ZERO respect for a manufacturer that goes to China to build with labor that only costs $300 a month. It's nothing against the Chinese worker, I honestly wish them the best in their struggles. But when companies exploit those poor people, they need to be taught that it will not be tolerated. I think there needs to be some major tariffs put on imported good from China, both to protect American jobs and to discourage the slave labor that goes on over there.

[larry50]

Fine by me.. Most people don't understand why I dislike Chinese imports so much. I'm ok with that, and it won't change a single thing about my buying habits. I have zero, ZERO respect for a manufacturer that goes to China to build with labor that only costs $300 a month. It's nothing against the Chinese worker, I honestly wish them the best in their struggles. But when companies exploit those poor people, they need to be taught that it will not be tolerated. I think there needs to be some major tariffs put on imported good from China, both to protect American jobs and to discourage the slave labor that goes on over there.

 

 

This is a false economy. Living expenses for Chinese are far less than average living expenses in this country. Their wages are determined accordingly. It's not that the Chinese are exploited (all "workers" are exploited, including American workers), it's more that American living standards are so high and expensive that to pay American wages to manufacture the same guitar manufactured in China with the same quality would price the guitar out of most demographic markets. My Guild GAD-50, manufactured at the Cort factory in China and which cost $700, with similar woods, build quality (as good as anything here) and appointments would easily cost $2,.000+ if it had been manufactured here, about the same as what USA Guilds cost. The market for Pac Rim instruments is so large that by boycotting the Chinese over some moral point seems, well, pointless. You hurt both the American seller and the Chinese worker at the same time, while reducing the choices available to us.

[normh]

Fine I have zero, ZERO respect for a manufacturer that goes to China to build with labor that only costs $300 a month. It's nothing against the Chinese worker, I honestly wish them the best in their struggles. But when companies exploit those poor people, they need to be taught that it will not be tolerated.

 

 

So, the question I have to ask since you were so eloquent in your statement of dislike for Chinese imports is: "How do you feel about Mexican imports in which an American company exploits the poor people." The easiest example is Fender.

[BryanMichael]

I'm just curious as to how Raven CAD is even communicating with us on the internet. He is using a computer that has more parts made in China than probably anything in his house...except his TV, his clothes, his car, lamps, and just about anything electronic.... But for guitars? THAT's WHERE HE DRAWS THE LINE!

In America, we call that HYPOCRISY.

[CoqBelliqueux]

Since when is getting a job instead of going through the garbage for food equal to "exploitation"?

[RaVenCAD]

Since when is getting a job instead of going through the garbage for food equal to "exploitation"?

 

 

When a company is making billions yet paying pennies per hour for the labor, that's exploitation..

 

As for my computer and other devices, some things just can't be had in a completely import-free manner. I avoid Chinese imports everywhere I can, but sometimes it just isn't possible.

 

As for Mexican made guitars, I've never really thought about them. I used to own a MIM Fender, 2 actually, but I got bored with them and sold them. No morals involved, just got bored with them.

[satannica]

I don't think cheapie automatically means crappy, but it sure can suggest it loudly.

I paid

[Yogi_Sizzle]

When a company is making billions yet paying pennies per hour for the labor, that's exploitation..

 

 

No, that's called good Ol' American Capitalism. Do you really think American Companies are paying people more than the bare minimum? They pay you what the can get away otherwise the people at the top wouldn't be bringing home billions while the people at the bottom bring home thousands. Yes we make more than chinese factory workers, but then again the cost of living here is much higher. A dollar over there goes a lot farther than one say here. The whole Slave Labor stuff is BS. Often times these factories give them jobs that they otherwise wouldn't have and provide them with a way to make due for their families.

[humbuckerstrat]

The only kind of guitar I own.

+1

[soundcreation]

This is a false economy. Living expenses for Chinese are far less than average living expenses in this country. Their wages are determined accordingly. It's not that the Chinese are exploited (all "workers" are exploited, including American workers), it's more that American living standards are so high and expensive that to pay American wages to manufacture the same guitar manufactured in China with the same quality would price the guitar out of most demographic markets. My Guild GAD-50, manufactured at the Cort factory in China and which cost $700, with similar woods, build quality (as good as anything here) and appointments would easily cost $2,.000+ if it had been manufactured here, about the same as what USA Guilds cost. The market for Pac Rim instruments is so large that by boycotting the Chinese over some moral point seems, well, pointless. You hurt both the American seller and the Chinese worker at the same time, while reducing the choices available to us.

 

 

So you can show that chinese factory workers make a living wage adjusted for living standards? I'd like to see that proof, cause it goes against everything I've read about real wages in china.

 

Your argument is flawed because it's only taking into account one variable. Cost of living difference.

 

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/economy-and-business/Analysts-Salary-Increases-May-Not-Ease-Southern-Chinas-Labor-Woes-95888554.html

 

Geoffrey Crothall of the China Labor Bulletin, a Hong Kong rights group, says rewards for workers are hard-earned. "They will work anything from eight to 12 hours a day doing the same repetitive task for very low wages. The minimum wage is not a living wage in China. To get a barely living wage, they have to do up to 60 hours overtime each month," he said.

 

So until you post some proof that this type of thing is incorrect....I will continue to assume guitar manufacturers contract to factories that operate like the above. It's pretty much standard over there.

 

And that makes Raven's argument totally valid. If factories are not paying a subsistence wage to their employees than they are exploiting them. And that's before we even get into matters of working hours, safety standards and benefits.

 

Choosing to not buy chinese products is, in fact, an excellent way to show corporations you won't support these kind of tactics for maximizing profits at the expense of workers both foreign and domestic.

[BryanMichael]

So you can show that chinese factory workers make a living wage adjusted for living standards? I'd like to see that proof, cause it goes against everything I've read about real wages in china. Your argument is flawed because it's only taking into account one variable. Cost of living difference. http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/economy-and-business/Analysts-Salary-Increases-May-Not-Ease-Southern-Chinas-Labor-Woes-95888554.html Geoffrey Crothall of the China Labor Bulletin, a Hong Kong rights group, says rewards for workers are hard-earned. "They will work anything from eight to 12 hours a day doing the same repetitive task for very low wages. The minimum wage is not a living wage in China. To get a barely living wage, they have to do up to 60 hours overtime each month," he said. So until you post some proof that this type of thing is incorrect....I will continue to assume guitar manufacturers contract to factories that operate like the above. It's pretty much standard over there. And that makes Raven's argument totally valid. If factories are not paying a subsistence wage to their employees than they are exploiting them. And that's before we even get into matters of working hours, safety standards and benefits. Choosing to not buy chinese products is, in fact, an excellent way to show corporations you won't support these kind of tactics for maximizing profits at the expense of workers both foreign and domestic.

 

 

 

But this isn't much different than the US is it? Minimum wage here is NOT a "living wage" for crying out loud. My girlfriend and I regularly put in overtime just to make bills each month, granted our lifestyle is probably miles ahead of the average Chinese factory worker, but these things EVOLVE. They did in Korea, which is why production moved to China. IN 10 years production will be in AFRICA. I want proof that all Chinese guitars are made in piss poor factory worker conditions. For all we know, those factories are the nicest jobs in China and workers compete to work for Epiphone or Boss or Toshiba or whoever. PROOF.

[BryanMichael]

Here is where the Epis and lots of other brands are made:

http://www.saein.co.kr/2007/info01.php

[soundcreation]

I'm just curious as to how Raven CAD is even communicating with us on the internet. He is using a computer that has more parts made in China than probably anything in his house...except his TV, his clothes, his car, lamps, and just about anything electronic.... But for guitars? THAT's WHERE HE DRAWS THE LINE! In America, we call that HYPOCRISY.

While technically it might be hypocrisy..you don't think it's better to at least try to do something rather than nothing?

I don't think it's about drawing lines. It's about doing what you can where you can. And maybe what starts with guitars spreads to things like computers and clothing. Like when environmentalists forced Mcdonalds to stop using Styrofoam containers.....Burger King didn't have to stop...but they did cause they saw what happened to Micky D's.

But hey. If your attitude is "well...I can't do anything about it so I might as well make it worse...or as bad as possible".

OK. Don't really see the logic in that, but whatever.

[Yogi_Sizzle]

Geoffrey Crothall of the China Labor Bulletin, a Hong Kong rights group, says rewards for workers are hard-earned. "They will work anything from eight to 12 hours a day doing the same repetitive task for very low wages. The minimum wage is not a living wage in China. To get a barely living wage, they have to do up to 60 hours overtime each month," he said.

 

 

The same could be said for America. The current minimum wage is 7.25/hr, 1160 a month. Think about what that gets you. A {censored}ty apartment, say if you are trying to buy a car tack on another 2-300 a month, then insurances, and maybe a bit for food you are barely getting by. A lot of people here who work for minimum wage still work 2-3 jobs.

[dimmypage]

When a company is making billions yet paying pennies per hour for the labor, that's exploitation.. As for my computer and other devices, some things just can't be had in a completely import-free manner. I avoid Chinese imports everywhere I can, but sometimes it just isn't possible. As for Mexican made guitars, I've never really thought about them. I used to own a MIM Fender, 2 actually, but I got bored with them and sold them. No morals involved, just got bored with them.

 

 

Youre sitting on a broken fence dude. Buy what ya want though. I own quite a few Chinese made guitars,however I also own a US made plasma tv-- cost--$4000.oo.The way I see it is that the Chinese were making wooden musical instruments long before there was a United States.

[BryanMichael]

While technically it might be hypocrisy..you don't think it's better to at least try to do something rather than nothing? I don't think it's about drawing lines. It's about doing what you can where you can. And maybe what starts with guitars spreads to things like computers and clothing. Like when environmentalists forced Mcdonalds to stop using Styrofoam containers.....Burger King didn't have to stop...but they did cause they saw what happened to Micky D's. But hey. If your attitude is "well...I can't do anything about it so I might as well make it worse...or as bad as possible". OK. Don't really see the logic in that, but whatever.

No, my point is that the factories you guys are all up in arms about are for things you guys are buying and using more of than a luxury item like a guitar. The Epi factory:

http://www.epiphone.com/FactoryTour/qdtour.html

You want to talk about sweatshops and bad conditions- STOP BUYING CLOTHES FROM CHINA, STOP BUYING ELECTRONICS AND PLASTIC {censored} FROM CHINA. Guitars are NOT causing the problem here, it's MASS quantity items, not limited appeal specialty items. Also, it makes NO {censored}ING SENSE to say "working conditions in China" because China is a HUGE {censored}ing country! Have you ever seen the working conditions in mills or chicken farms in some backwater US states!?!?!?!?? So, by that logic we shouldn't buy things from the USA because "working conditions are BAD in the USA" this is big picture thinking required here.

[soundcreation]

But this isn't much different than the US is it? Minimum wage here is NOT a "living wage" for crying out loud. My girlfriend and I regularly put in overtime just to make bills each month, granted our lifestyle is probably miles ahead of the average Chinese factory worker, but these things EVOLVE. They did in Korea, which is why production moved to China. IN 10 years production will be in AFRICA. I want proof that all Chinese guitars are made in piss poor factory worker conditions. For all we know, those factories are the nicest jobs in China and workers compete to work for Epiphone or Boss or Toshiba or whoever. PROOF.

 

 

And that doesn't make it right in america either. And things are DE evolving in the US because americans are too lazy to fight for the rights their grandparents and great grandparents spilled blood in the streets for. The 40 hour work week, safety standards, Living wages, vacation time, etc...all of these things were won by people protesting and fighting in the streets...and corporate america fought tooth and nail to NOT give workers those rights. Hiring scabs and thugs to murder and intimidate. Bull{censored} free market fantasies "of the market managing itself" had nothing to do with americans increasing their living standards. And now americans are watching it slip away as corporations buy politicians like Bush and Obama to deregulate and cut and slash.

 

The reason production fled Korea is because workers there fought in the streets in the 80's and forced their cabals to pay better and give benefits. But that was too much for Nike's bottom line so they moved to countries where governments had more boot heels on more necks...like Indonesia and China. And all these other western companies followed.

 

Really this whole idea of the noble corporation going into these countries and "lifting the peasants out of poverty" then moving on to repeat the process...is just completely laughable. Only the most disciplined dogmatic victims of free market propaganda really believe that kind of crap.

 

And I already showed you proof. Now I want proof from you that companies there ARE paying real living wages. If you can show me a guitar company in China that does this. I will say that they should be supported. But don't you think if they were, they would be trumpeting that fact?

[Angry Tele]

convergence theory

its not as simple as 'China sucks/ America is good'

in the 90s China (and Russia) made private ownership of property legal for the first time, and they auctioned off many of the state-owned industries. Suddenly making a profit was not a crime anymore-it was even encouraged. Even North Korea has a 'commercial zone' where profit is the goal.

[soundcreation]

No, my point is that the factories you guys are all up in arms about are for things you guys are buying and using more of than a luxury item like a guitar. The Epi factory: http://www.epiphone.com/FactoryTour/qdtour.html You want to talk about sweatshops and bad conditions- STOP BUYING CLOTHES FROM CHINA, STOP BUYING ELECTRONICS AND PLASTIC {censored} FROM CHINA. Guitars are NOT causing the problem here, it's MASS quantity items, not limited appeal specialty items. Also, it makes NO {censored}ING SENSE to say "working conditions in China" because China is a HUGE {censored}ing country! Have you ever seen the working conditions in mills or chicken farms in some backwater US states!?!?!?!?? So, by that logic we shouldn't buy things from the USA because "working conditions are BAD in the USA" this is big picture thinking required here.

Yeah I was waiting for that link. Or the youtube vids of nice clean factories in china/indo/vietnam etc...

But the image you think I have in my head about this issue is completely false. In fact it's probably what YOU think and the shinny pictures in the link are enough to convince you things are great there. But again they don't tell us anything. So the factories are nice. Big deal. That doesn't tell us how much they get paid, their working hours, are they on a quota system, safety standards and on and on and on.

And I don't buy clothes from china. I buy as little electronics as knowingly possible from china. Am I perfect? Of course not. Never claimed to be. But I try to do what I can where I can, rather than just giving up on the whole thing.

As for americas problems see my other post above.

I'll just add that guitars are just as much PART of the problem as anything else. This is not an issue about 1 product. It's an issue that stems from an entire way of thinking. So much so it has become kind of institutionalized.

[BryanMichael]

And that doesn't make it right in america either. And things are DE evolving in the US because americans are too lazy to fight for the rights their grandparents and great grandparents spilled blood in the streets for. The 40 hour work week, safety standards, Living wages, vacation time, etc...all of these things were won by people protesting and fighting in the streets...and corporate america fought tooth and nail to NOT give workers those rights. Hiring scabs and thugs to murder and intimidate. Bull{censored} free market fantasies "of the market managing itself" had nothing to do with americans increasing their living standards. And now americans are watching it slip away as corporations buy politicians like Bush and Obama to deregulate and cut and slash. The reason production fled Korea is because workers their fought in the streets in the 80's and forced their cabals to pay better and give benefits. But that was too much for Nike's bottom line so they moved to countries where governments had more boot heels on more necks...like Indonesia and China. Really this whole idea of the noble corporation going into these countries and "lifting the peasants out of poverty" then moving on to repeat the process...is just completely laughable. Only the most disciplined dogmatic victims of free market propaganda really believe that kind of crap. And I already showed you proof. Now I want proof from you that companies there ARE paying real living wages. If you can show me a guitar company in China that does this. I will say that they should be supported. But don't you think if they were, they would be trumpeting that fact?

Actually I'm more on your side than you think, I don't think corporations are "noble" by any stretch, and I'm glad that the Koreans evolved their labor force so quickly, all I'm saying is that I live in the real world. and I HAVE posted links and pics above from the Epi factory. Saien and Epi have worked together to create and own factories in China. They only employ a couple hundred people! This is not some 3000 person sweatshop. You know why? Electric guitars are a specialty luxury item made in limited quantities, not like T-shirts. You want to make a difference, stop buying Tshirts and shoes made in China. But also realize that by NOT buying those products, you are not empowering the workers AT ALL. When what the workers do has VALUE it gives them a lever. It's a delicate dance, this consumer capitalism...

[CoqBelliqueux]

When a company is making billions yet paying pennies per hour for the labor, that's exploitation..

It was the same here 150 years ago. It's just how a society develops. They start removing the children from plants, then they reduce the hours, etc...
Believe me, the white people aren't better than anyone else, just a few years ahead.

You guys all love capitalism and democracy but hate the results every time.

[BryanMichael]

It was the same here 150 years ago. It's just how a society develops. They start removing the children from plants, then they reduce the hours, etc... Believe me, the white people aren't better than anyone else, just a few years ahead. You guys all love capitalism and democracy but hate the results every time.

That's because most Americans don't understand that CAPITALISM and DEMOCRACY work AGAINST each other in lots of ways. Democracy is supposed to help spread the power out among the people, while Capitalism tends to pile power up in various places...