Members honeyiscool Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 I think a better test would be if someone recorded a track into a DAW, then reamped it to a real amp, mic'd it, and then the modeling amp direct. And see how many people could get the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richey888 Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 I am 2 mos. into the honeymoon with the Boss Power Stack. Not usually a Boss guy, but they hit it out of the park with this one. The Mustang sounds good in the bedroom, haven't tried one big enough to gig with. Anyone gig theirs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eddie Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 @Roland ad crashclc,You're right. That's why I put test in quotation marks. It is a poorly designed quasi-experiment with limited generalizability. But it does show that some people can identify modeling. I love modeling and technology, but I would not use the POD (or Line6) as the benchmark for good modeling.That being said, I sold my tube amps after I got the zenTera. So far, for my own use, it has set the standard for modeling. At one point I was offered a trade for an Axe-FX Ultra!The one that really interests me is the Kemper:http://kemper-amps.com/Ideally in a pedalboard format since I stopped using amps due to a couple of herniated discs.Other modelers I'd like to try include Softube and Vandal. I was excited about the TH2 and got a very nice deal on it, but it turned out to be a disappointment since some features (e.g., most of the cabinets and their IRs) do not work for me and their support has been unable to figure out why. I still use it with Recabinet 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members _pete_ Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 I love modelers.I used an H&K Zentera for years (it is absolutely awesome) but now I'm using a Digitech GSP1101 and love it. The guitar in these is going thru the GSP1101 exclusively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 I think the thing about modeling amps live is that they often sit in the mix much better than real amps, especially when you go through the PA. Yeah, they don't pump tons of tube tone into your eardrums, but in a lot of places, that's a good thign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scuzzo Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 I'd say that's a BIG maybe. The only "test" that I know of is this:http://emusician.com/tutorials/showdown-clubhouse-amp-software/"The panelists were D. James Goodwin (Thursday, Parliament-Funkadelic, Motion Picture Demise), John Holbrook (B.B. King, the Brian Setzer Orchestra, the Isley Brothers, Fountains of Wayne), Pete Moshay (Hall and Oates, Daryl Hall, Paula Abdul, B.B. King, Barbra Streisand, Fishbone), Paul Orofino (John Petrucci, Blue Oyster Cult, Anthrax), and Tozzoli (Al Di Meola, the Marsalis Family, David Bowie)."With clean sounds "in the Twin examples, the panelists picked the real amp 60 percent of the time."My first exposure to modeling was in the late 90s when a friend showed me Amp Farm and a SansAmp Classic. In his words, it was not as good as the real thing, but convenient some times.Although Line6 gave me my first exposure to modeling, I've never liked their sound. Perhaps it may be difficult to distinguish it from a real amp after additional processing is involved (i.e., applying eq., compression, ADT, IRs,Irs, etc.) I have POD Farm 2 and seldom use it.For me the best sounds -and response- I've heard in modeling still come from the H&K zenTera, which has been surprising considering it is "old" by modeling standards. Vox also sounded great when it came to Marshall sounds. I use Guitar Rig, Amplitube, POD Farm, TH2, Waves GTR, and others, but if I wanted a better sound (and feel) I go with the zenTera.The Kemper looks very promising. I would love that or an Axe-FX in pedalboard format. thats the thing of it with this test,, its old model technology.. if you want to do a good valid test now.. you will have to use the best version out.. guitar rig 4 and amplitube 3 and GTR 3.. but the life cycle of these is so quick that as soon as you put out a test of model amp against tube, they have already addressed old issues and are offering a new version... while tube amp technology for the most part is static.. model amp technology is always evolving.. i have guitar rig 3 and liked great for the time,, but rig 4 is so far ahead in sound stage is not even the same product .same with amplitube 2 vs 3.. 2 was ok.. but 3 is amazing.. and i have yet to hear a fender black face tube, switch up and do a convincing vox ac30 or orange rockerverb... but these are just my opinions play what speaks to you..i know i do.. peace.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members genesis3 Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 using pods and peavey vypyr amps, and some other digital modellers, amps and software the one common thing I notice is, great sounding at lower volume levels...turn them up, and uber-harshness. Not good. I'd like to try the Peavey vypyr's with the tubes in them...maybe that would take that harsh, solid state sounding edge of them when you crank it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jarick Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 The big thing that annoyed me about older modeling gear was that it didn't work well at louder levels. I had a guitarist who used a Boss GT multi effect for years into his Fender Hot Rod tube amp...it sounded really buzzy and annoying with distortion. He always had a much better sound with pedals IMO. He didn't seem to care though. I also tried PODxt's and other Digitech gear and same thing, it was an annoying buzz sound with higher gain. I think the hardest thing for models to get right is the speaker cab sound. I'm not sure if they all use impulses now, but it seemed they used to just have a treble roll-off and it sounded like garbage. Especially when you tried to plug into an amplifier. With the "direct" setting it was too nasty and bright and with the "cab sim" setting it was way too muddy. The reason the Tech21, Vox, and Mustang amps work well IMO is because they are designed to sound good through a speaker, and that's hard to do. When you're trying to model a Fender, you're usually going after 4x10 or 2x12 open back cabs. When you're trying to model a Marshall, it's a 4x12 closed back cab. And those speakers are VERY different. So you've got to compensate for the actual speaker/cab at all volumes PLUS try to model the sound of the Fender/Marshall/etc cab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 In my mind, if you want to play modeling amps through a guitar cab, you need a clean amp, or a power amp. I've had great results plugging into a 100W hi-fi power amp going into a speaker cabinet. Or you can have clean amps like Tech 21 Power Engine. You can't really expect the line-level output of a modeling amp to sound great through a standard amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eddie Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 thats the thing of it with this test,, its old model technology.. if you want to do a good valid test now.. you will have to use the best version out.. guitar rig 4 and amplitube 3 and GTR 3.. but the life cycle of these is so quick that as soon as you put out a test of model amp against tube, they have already addressed old issues and are offering a new version... while tube amp technology for the most part is static.. model amp technology is always evolving.. i have guitar rig 3 and liked great for the time,, but rig 4 is so far ahead in sound stage is not even the same product .same with amplitube 2 vs 3.. 2 was ok.. but 3 is amazing.. and i have yet to hear a fender black face tube, switch up and do a convincing vox ac30 or orange rockerverb...but these are just my opinions play what speaks to you..i know i do..peace.. I agree in part with you. One thing to note is that in spite of the evolution of digital modeling, a lot of it does not make any significant progress. New releases are often nothing more than an additional source of revenue. Other times it's just adding more in terms of amps, effects, features (e.g., looper, metronome) without a noticeable improvement in quality. I love the idea behind Roland's COSM, but up to VG-88 I was not a fan of their sounds. I have not tried their newer stuff. It was not bad, but by now we should be having features such as selectable tubes (preamp and poweramp), pickup models, woods or different materials, string material and gauge, guitar shape, etc. This is nothing new, btw. Some of it has already been incorporated. NI's own B4 has had a selectable "age" or condition of the organ for years now, for example. These ideas come from a time when dual-processors were an expensive option. Now we have a lot of processing power using multiple cores, and still the same type of modeling paradigms. That's one reason why the Kemper is exciting for me. Hopefully in a few years it will be available as a pedalboard that serves as an audio interface for my computer and that I can connect to a PA. It will have a nice display to make editing/programing easy. Perhaps even a small built-in speaker for practice (like those on a Boss metronome), as well as a headphone jack. The technology is available, and it is not that expensive these days. The G-System costs $1500. The Axe-FX Ultra is $2000. How many years ago were they introduced? Without going the hardware route which is certainly more expensive, how hard is it to come up with a great software modeler, in terms of quality, features, and a paradigm shift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members neffrocks Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 With my back turned, I don't know if I could tell the difference in sound, but the feel would be way different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaleH Posted February 5, 2011 Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 Amp modeling has improved, yes. And recorded audio is manipulated via digital means in any case so you are right on this point. I think it's two different things when you're there with it live and you're the one playing the guitar, though. That is the thing with the Mustang. They sound good through the amp. I don't reaally care if it copies some old valve amp exactully. They just sound really good. Very few people have ever played through a vintage valve let alone one that is in good working order anyhow. They only have the sound of recored ones to judge modelers by. Most reviews you read are not from players that use both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Arr0wHead Posted February 5, 2011 Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 A lot of the "it sounds the same, but the feel is different" comments are based around OLD modeling technology. And so that I'm not misunderstood, POD 1, 2, XT, and X3 are ALL old modeling technology. Line 6 has not updated their amp models or the process used in some 10 years. Meanwhile, go play through Overloud. Or an HD500. Or axe-fx. All those dynamics modeling can't do? That attack? The cleanup when you roll off the volume? Response to picking attack, low gain crunch, clean tones, and that spongy 'feel' thing you get from a good fender, marshall, etc? Yup, modern day cutting edge modelers have this. It's entirely the reason that the high end units with massive processing power that can handle this newer generation of modeling methods (like the axe fx) are getting so much attention. Unfortunately, you'll still get the guy who wants to compare a $400 line 6 floor pedal with 10 year old modeling tech to a $3000 boutique head. Try jamming through something using more modern modeling algorithms, and you'll find all that feel you were lacking is still there. I love line 6, my XT is the entire central hub of my tone and sound, but even I would never try to say that this thing's response is ANYTHING like a real amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DavidMgT Posted February 5, 2011 Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 I use an RP1000 or a GSP1101 for a lot of recording, it's a lot simpler to dial in a great sound plug straight into the board, and lay tracks.I do love mic'd cabs and tube heads but, the reality is that unless your engineer knows exactly what they are doing then getting a great sound on tape or disk is not as simple as it sounds.Modeling has a place in the studio, now live I prefer the real deal. Same here. I have my share of great tube amps , but my GSP1101 has served me very well for recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sammyreynolds01 Posted February 5, 2011 Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 using pods and peavey vypyr amps, and some other digital modellers, amps and software the one common thing I notice is, great sounding at lower volume levels...turn them up, and uber-harshness. Not good. I'd like to try the Peavey vypyr's with the tubes in them...maybe that would take that harsh, solid state sounding edge of them when you crank it. Same thing goes for Spiders as well. I have a Pod Floorboard Plus. You can turn it up and it sounds fine. I think the modeling amplifiers are great at low volumes like you said. Amplitube and other types of programs are totally different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members radomu Posted February 5, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 I've got the Mustang IV, and it's the best modeling amp I've ever heard. Should be even better when I can break out the FUSE software sometime next week. So good that you can gig with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Beyer160 Posted February 5, 2011 Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 I bought a Mustang I and so far, Line 6 Gearbox pretty much blows Fender Fuse away. The Vox model in particular on the Fender sounds fizzy like a cheap stompbox, which was a big disappointment. The Blackface Deluxe and Marshall Plexi sims are pretty nice, though. For a cheap practice amp to noodle on at home, the Mustang I is a great toy. I can dial in a few cool sounds (and it has a tuner!), which is more than anyone should expect from a $99 amp. As a serious recording tool... no. On the other hand, I find Gearbox to be very useful for that purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members orbm1 Posted February 5, 2011 Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 I am sticking to my "modeling" set up... I bought my share of TUBE amps (Mesa included), and I always come back to this set up... sound is there... feel is there, Not perfect, but GREAT sounding and SUPER practical!!! This is my set up: Guitar - GT10 - Tech21 Power Engine 60 Here is a good representation of what you can achieve... I think the main problem with modeling is the way you amplify it... run a good modeler (GT10, pod, etc) through a tube amp and the natural coloration of the amp would make the modeler to sound like crap.... otoh, run it through a modeler-dedicated amp = WIN (imho) Omar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eddie Posted February 5, 2011 Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 Yes, full range, flat response (FRFR) amps can sound much better when used with modeling devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richey888 Posted February 5, 2011 Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 I think the main problem with modeling is the way you amplify it... run a good modeler (GT10, pod, etc) through a tube amp and the natural coloration of the amp would make the modeler to sound like crap.... otoh, run it through a modeler-dedicated amp = WIN (imho) Omar I like the high gain stuff (Vox model left me cold, too much compression and dude is a bit pretentious; who cares you were on tour? Let's hear it w/ a Strat or Tele!). Just my opinion, no offense meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richey888 Posted February 5, 2011 Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 orb1, if that's you, no offense, seriously, but the Deluxe was ok, and Vox meh.....I though at first it was someone just posting a youtube. Sorry again. Nice licks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members orbm1 Posted February 5, 2011 Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 orb1, if that's you, no offense, seriously, but the Deluxe was ok, and Vox meh.....I though at first it was someone just posting a youtube. Sorry again. Nice licks! Not me... no offense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members orbm1 Posted February 5, 2011 Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 Here is another GT10 example video, straight to the mixer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mister natural Posted February 5, 2011 Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 amp modeling - digital emulating guitar amps : Fender Mustang, Roland Cube, Vox Valvetronix intergrated with guitar-specific speakers or amp modeling - digital emulating pedals : POD, BOSS Multi, Digitech RP-series, etc - designed to plug into standard guitar amps or neutral (FRFR) amps or Studio Monitors or amp modeling - digital emulating vst plugs : AmpFarm, Vandal, Amplitube - designed for recording direct into ProTools, Sonar or the like seems like we're talking about 3 different animals here for me, I'm having the best tones these days using a couple of models of my Adrenalinn pedal into my DAW followed by a speaker IR emulation to "round" out the timbre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Markdude Posted February 5, 2011 Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 It's absolutely amazing these days, imo. AxeFX, LePou (maker of free VST plugins), and Peavey ReValver are the ones that have impressed me the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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