So How good is amp modeling these days?

[9-Pin-Phoenix]

I really like the sound of my Axe FX Standard. I've used it live several times. The audience seems to like it and the band has had no complaints. And I don't even use 1/3 of the possibilities in the box.

[honeyiscool]

 

This guy's insane. But his ME-70 demo is much better IMO.

 

 

 

1:40 gives me boner.

[ashasha]

I bought a Roland VG-8 in 1994 and didn't own a tube amp until about 3 years ago. In the meantime I've tried, bought, borrowed or stolen just about every frickin thing in between and they all had merits and shortcomings. I used Guitar Rig 3 for several years, was on a ReValver kick for a while and have been heavy into impulse response and convolution modelling for about 3 or 4 years now (seems to be kind of 'the thing' these days).

 

Tube amps are great, there's no arguing that. If you want pant flapping and a great tone by just plugging and tweaking a few knobs stick with an amp. Just remember that if you want a new sound you need to buy another amp. If you want to record it you've got buy mics, find a place to crank the bejeesus out of it and at least the bare minimum of a recording studio to get a decent cut. If you're playing live and covering a lot of different material you may even need to get a couple amps and a complex switching system....maybe not, but if you really want to get all those great tones you need the gear.

 

Modelling's biggest complaints seem to be the feel (and I know exactly what they're talking about), inaccuracies in the models that they're simulating and getting a good live sound.

 

The feel thing has been improved since at least the release of ReValver and the first 10 seconds plugged into my AxeFX it was there in spades. Many will say that the HDx00 series from L6 has gotten pretty good too (haven't tried one yet).

 

Live sound, well it's only going to be as good as the rest of your system (power amp, speakers, etc) and even then from what I understand it's not exactly like a real live amp. I guess that it has a lot to do with the lack of pant flapping. I don't play live so I can't comment a lot about this, but how many times has someone in a band asked the guitar player to crank his 100W stack up some more because they can still hear the drums? Bottom line to me is that it has to do with how it sits in the mix and the audience hears it. I've heard great examples of tube amps and modellers both...I've heard crappy examples of both as well.

 

But the big one to me is the ridiculous amount of time spent on trying to nail the tone of an amp (live or a recorded version) to the most subtle nuance and proceeding to judge the modeller solely on those 'shortcomings'. I think that we focus entirely too much on what we perceive as missing than on what we have available and what is possible. Sure I may not be able to sound exactly like a Dumble OD Special that I heard Robbin Ford play, but I sure as hell can dial in about 10 million patches that sound fantastic and a handful of them would sound great playing whatever it is that he played.

 

And 9 times out of 10 if you record something, play it well and it sits good in the mix people aren't going to give a half a {censored} whether it's modelled or a real amp (and most times can't tell anymore). A good song is a good song.

 

I just don't think that the measure of any gear is how close it sounds to another piece of gear; it's all about how I can use it to play what I want. Some stuff works for some people, some stuff doesn't.

 

Modelling isn't perfect, but name one piece of gear that is. There are always compromises and with ampsims I have a lot more variety, convenience and can spend more time playing because I just flip a switch and my entire rig is right there. I want a different amp and pedal board, I step on a button.

 

The real measure is the stupid smile on my face that I get everytime I play my AxeFX. I want for nothing these days and if this was the last piece of gear I ever owned I'd be more than happy. I'm not chomping at the bit for the AxeFX Super Duper Ultra to hit the market because I'm not lacking anything in terms of tone or feel. I couldn't say the same thing a few years ago.

[the_gunslinger]

I have a Vox Valvetronix 100w head, one of the older chrome heads, which I run through a Marshall 4x12, I've been very impressed with it thus far. I really only use three settings on it, some are way better than others, such as the Marshall sounds. I have had the opportunity to use it for smaller gigs, sounded great at loud volumes, but it will never really achieve the same ear splitting volume output as a tube amp can. I also still love the older blue Valvetronix combo's. I would love to get an Axe-Fx. IMO the Axe sounds terrific, top of the line modeling. The Line 6 stuff had never really done it for me, alway's sounded like garbage to me, and I really don't like the gain models on the Vypyr at all. I haven't played a Mustang, so no comment on it. I'd say modeling has come quite a long way in a short period, especially with top quality stuff like the Axe and Eleven Rack stuff, a lot of pro's are jumping on the Axe-Fx wagon as we speak.

[the_gunslinger]

Oh, also don't be afraid to venture into Mapz, lots of great Axe-Fx clips there. I highly recommend Samhill's clips.

[Eddie]

 

...Tube amps are great, there's no arguing that...

 

 

I would say that some tube amps are great. A while back a forumite invited me to an "ampfest" and we heard probably 50 tube amps. At least a dozen were vintage Vox and Marshall. In some cases, we heard 4 or 5 different amps of the same model, but with different tubes or just quite different sounds. This is interesting since I could dial my perfect tone on a tube amp and it may not be consistent every time I play. Sound is affected by use and age of the amp and tubes, and also by factors like weather, temperature, humidity, etc. Modeling is more consistent in that sense.

IIRC, we liked maybe 5 of the 50+ amps. Some sounded pretty bad, and others were unimpressive. The Dumble (ODS?) was amazing!

[maybe_ebyam]

 

And 9 times out of 10 if you record something, play it well and it sits good in the mix people aren't going to give a half a {censored} whether it's modelled or a real amp (and most times can't tell anymore). A good song is a good song.

 

 

This. For me, personally, I can't (and probably never will) replace a real tube amp for anything live, but modelers sure do hold their own on recordings. Until I have the budget to track in a perfect room, with the perfect mic and the perfect pre into the perfect board at the hands of the perfect engineer, I'll stick to demoing with modelers. And at any rate, the producer of the #4 best selling album of last year commented on how much he liked the guitar tones on my demos without knowing (or likely caring) one way or the other.

[cratz2]

I've used mostly tube amps over the last 20 years or so, but I've always been very interested in the modeling side... guess it's the science vs art brain thing going on there.

 

For me personally what it comes down to is if you want a Vox tone, get a Vox. If you want a Blackface or a Marshall JTM, get one of those. If you want 10 - 20 amps that are very decent but covers radically more ground than any reasonable set of three amps can cover, the better modelers are a pretty spectacular option.

 

I can't imagine I'll ever be without one Fender-ish amp and one Vox-ish amp because in the room, the feel and sound pretty different than the best modelers I've experienced. In recordings... I like to think I have a pretty good ear, but even with a basic USB connection and, I assume, minimal post work, Wagdog's clips using the Blackface Deluxe Reverb model in the Fender Mustang sound pretty damn good to my ears. Can I tell a difference in a room? I have no doubt. Can I tell a difference in recordings? Don't know and I don't care. The point is, for recording purposes, we are to the point where a $100 amp can get you very much in the same ballpark of a $2,500 amp will.

 

 

In car terms, I see modeling as the EVO or WRX STi and tube amps a a late 70s Porsche 930 Turbo. On the right track, they might have similar lap times, but they feel radically difference. One of them you kind of have to finesse a bit just to keep it on the track whereas the other one will give great results to just about anyone that drives it... For lots of folks, they'd just rather have that car that makes them fight to get the results. Nothing wrong with that and I'd generally put myself in that camp, but that doesn't mean the EVOs and STis aren't absolute beasts and very capable of doing what they were made to do.

[algol]

Sonically, they are really quite good, both live and recorded. They are also available in every budget range. Pros use them, etc.

I have an Eleven Rack, and am completely satisfied. I can dial up pretty much any tone I want, it is a fantastic audio interface w/ protools, and I can play any tone with headphones. Personally, seeing the videos from VaiSatchAtrucci : http://www.youtube.com/user/vaisatchatrucci#p/a/u/2/8jfEjY_75Io pushed me over the edge during my search.

[cratz2]

"The panelists were D. James Goodwin (Thursday, Parliament-Funkadelic, Motion Picture Demise), John Holbrook (B.B. King, the Brian Setzer Orchestra, the Isley Brothers, Fountains of Wayne), Pete Moshay (Hall and Oates, Daryl Hall, Paula Abdul, B.B. King, Barbra Streisand, Fishbone), Paul Orofino (John Petrucci, Blue Oyster Cult, Anthrax), and Tozzoli (Al Di Meola, the Marsalis Family, David Bowie)." With clean sounds "in the Twin examples, the panelists picked the real amp 60 percent of the time."

I do have to say that this is a very, very bad example for arguing FOR tube amps.

The best ears on the planet are capable of telling the difference between the 'real amp' vs a model of the amp a bit more often than just randomly saying 'A' every single time.

Not a good argument at all.

[cratz2]

OK... I'm taking the test linked to by Eddie.

 

Edit:

 

On Twin 1: I was right and was pretty confident when I made my selection but the Amp Farm also sounded very good.

 

On Twin 2: I was 100% sure it was one of two of the choices, but I made the wrong choice. The Guitar Rig 3 model was very, very believable.

 

On AC30 1: I was right, but it was more of a sense of lack of space around the speakers than the actual model, I think and I wasn't terrible confident. I think Amplitube 2 was the best 'model'.

 

On AC30 2: I got this one wrong though I was completely confident in making the choice. Amplitube 2 and ReValver Mk III were both very good.

 

On Marshall 1: I got this wrong and I wasn't confident at all in my choice. These are heavier tones than I ever use though I used to own a JCM800. None of them sounded good to me, but I thought the Amp Farm 3.0 sounded the best.

 

On Marshall 2: I was wrong and simply voted which I thought sounded the best rather than the most 'amp like'. I selected the Eleven.

 

I was batting .500 on the Fender and Vox models which are the amps I use. I have to say that, regardless of the fact I missed both Marshall choices, none of them sounded good to my ears and in all honesty, when I owned 83-ish 800, I always thought it sounded too fizzy on top at these gain settings and always thought that dialing the gain on the amp down and boosting it a bit with an original GuvNor gave better results.

 

 

But there you have it.

[ashasha]

I do have to say that this is a very, very bad example for arguing FOR tube amps. The best ears on the planet are capable of telling the difference between the 'real amp' vs a model of the amp a bit more often than just randomly saying 'A' every single time. Not a good argument at all.

Well that test is also geared towards distinguishing between the two, not on whether it sounded good or not.

 

No one is sitting there trying to tell if it's real or modelled when listening to a song for the sake of the song. And if you think about the 60% number that's barely over half the time with concentrated listening with well trained ears.

 

It doesn't mean that it doens't matter at all; I'm just saying that unless it inhibits the artist who cares?

[ashasha]

Here you go, you tell me which one is which

http://www.mp3lizard.com/download.cfm?id=27611


Courtesy of the talented Mr Peter Thorn.

[cratz2]

Well that test is also geared towards distinguishing between the two, not on whether it sounded good or not. No one is sitting there trying to tell if it's real or modelled when listening to a song for the sake of the song. And if you think about the 60% number that's barely over half the time with concentrated listening with well trained ears. It doesn't mean that it doens't matter at all; I'm just saying that unless it inhibits the artist who cares?

 

Exactly my point.

[cratz2]

Here you go, you tell me which one is which http://www.mp3lizard.com/download.cfm?id=27611 Courtesy of the talented Mr Peter Thorn.

 

I preferred the second clip so I can only assume that the first one is the real Marshall.

[thunder100]

Ashasha

 

I coulndt agree more

 

 

 

And 9 times out of 10 if you record something, play it well and it sits good in the mix people aren't going to give a half a {censored} whether it's modelled or a real amp (and most times can't tell anymore). A good song is a good song. The real measure is the stupid smile on my face that I get everytime I play my AxeFX. I want for nothing these days and if this was the last piece of gear I ever owned I'd be more than happy. I'm not chomping at the bit for the AxeFX Super Duper Ultra to hit the market because I'm not lacking anything in terms of tone or feel. I couldn't say the same thing a few years ago.

 

 

Yes

 

For me running through all of this in several loops I will have modelers and tube amps also in future

 

Its not the question what is better-->point is what you like

 

and as my judgement ,mentioned here often-->its the signal chain what makes some modelers sound weak-->mainly from preamp torwards speaker.If you want to seriously compare(If this is what you really need) then limit the differences in this area

 

Roland

[LaXu]

But the big one to me is the ridiculous amount of time spent on trying to nail the tone of an amp (live or a recorded version) to the most subtle nuance and proceeding to judge the modeller solely on those 'shortcomings'. I think that we focus entirely too much on what we perceive as missing than on what we have available and what is possible. Sure I may not be able to sound exactly like a Dumble OD Special that I heard Robbin Ford play, but I sure as hell can dial in about 10 million patches that sound fantastic and a handful of them would sound great playing whatever it is that he played. And 9 times out of 10 if you record something, play it well and it sits good in the mix people aren't going to give a half a {censored} whether it's modelled or a real amp (and most times can't tell anymore). A good song is a good song. I just don't think that the measure of any gear is how close it sounds to another piece of gear; it's all about how I can use it to play what I want. Some stuff works for some people, some stuff doesn't. Modelling isn't perfect, but name one piece of gear that is. There are always compromises and with ampsims I have a lot more variety, convenience and can spend more time playing because I just flip a switch and my entire rig is right there. I want a different amp and pedal board, I step on a button. The real measure is the stupid smile on my face that I get everytime I play my AxeFX. I want for nothing these days and if this was the last piece of gear I ever owned I'd be more than happy. I'm not chomping at the bit for the AxeFX Super Duper Ultra to hit the market because I'm not lacking anything in terms of tone or feel. I couldn't say the same thing a few years ago.

 

 

Very good points. I've said it before, but I think Yamaha had the exact right idea about amp modeling with their DG series amps. While there were similarities to Marshalls and Fenders and whatnot in their amp models, the names were generic Clean 1, Crunch 2, Lead 1 etc. Only 8 amp models that still managed to cover pretty much any tone that most guitarists need. The user interface was also awesome because it was similar to regular amps. No menus to scroll thru etc. During the time I owned one of these times (about 6 years or something) nobody ever said that it didn't sound like tube amp X, the comments were always that it simply sounded good.

 

Amp modeling hasn't improved all that much until recently. Yamaha's tech was from about 1997 and it was still just as good as anything until the Vox Valvetronix stuff came out. That improved on the feel and tone a bit but until I bought the Axe-Fx I didn't feel the modelers responded to picking dynamics etc as well as a good tube amp.

 

The Axe-Fx user interface is still 1980s rack unit crap but the software editor saves it. Otherwise the unit is simply convenient with top class effects combined with great amp modeling. I use it thru the Fractal/Atomic FR combo. I think people often forget the part about what they're using to amplify. While the Axe sounds great thru a traditional guitar poweramp and cab, it limits the variety of tones you can get because you can't use the cab modeling to simulate bigger and smaller cabs.

[Eddie]

I do have to say that this is a very, very bad example for arguing FOR tube amps. The best ears on the planet are capable of telling the difference between the 'real amp' vs a model of the amp a bit more often than just randomly saying 'A' every single time. Not a good argument at all.

That's the only example I've found, and it certainly has its limitations as already mentioned. But you reminded me of another interesting point; ears can be deceived.

This video is about an hour long, but well worth watching. Just watching the first 15 minutes is an ear-opening experience

Since you like Vox amps, I have to say that when I heard maybe 6 vintage Vox amps in the amp shootout mentioned earlier I preferred the sound of my zenTera for the most part. Maybe there was one Vox amp that was definitely better, but 5 were not that good. Compared to other Vox-modeling I've heard I would probably prefer those tube amps. Some modeling was (and is) pretty mediocre. Some is very good.

When it comes to recorded guitar, in the context of a song, after mixing and mastering, even great ears can fail to tell whether a tube amp was used or something else. And this goes back to the days before modeling became popular. Some interesting "tricks" that come to mind include plugging straight into the console (e.g., David Gilmour, Beatles), double or triple-tracking a guitar part, using a small amp and re-recording the sound sent through a huge PA (i.e., Gilmour recorded in his studio using a small amp, and rented the LA Sports Arena IIRC. He then recorded the sound of his guitar going through the huge PA). There's also the praise Page has gotten for his Les Paul sound on the Stairway to Heaven solo or Gilmour's Strat sound on Another Brick in the Wall's solo, even though they used a Telecaster and a Les Paul respectively. So even expert ears can be deceived, and as shown in the video it is often based on our expectations. Of course, these days there's a lot of available information so we may be more familiar with these type of tricks.

[Eddie]

 

Very good points. I've said it before, but I think Yamaha had the exact right idea about amp modeling with their DG series amps. While there were similarities to Marshalls and Fenders and whatnot in their amp models, the names were generic Clean 1, Crunch 2, Lead 1 etc. Only 8 amp models that still managed to cover pretty much any tone that most guitarists need...

 

 

Just a few days ago I was thinking about this. I had a DG-Stomp and 3 MagicStomps (1, 2, and bass), and really liked a lot of what Yamaha was doing, but I have not seen anything recent from them. There were things I did not like, but I thought that they were on the right track. Plus the sounds were good and the units were affordable.

[LaXu]

 

Just a few days ago I was thinking about this. I had a DG-Stomp and 3 MagicStomps (1, 2, and bass), and really liked a lot of what Yamaha was doing, but I have not seen anything recent from them. There were things I did not like, but I thought that they were on the right track. Plus the sounds were good and the units were affordable.

 

 

They probably didn't sell well enough (Yamaha has always been terrible at marketing their gear for some reason) so they decided to not continue working on the tech, which is a shame. I thought their amps were the bees knees, had a really good solid-state power section, good speakers and everything. I actually felt that the DG stuff sounded best with its own poweramp, I tried my DG amp's preamp with my Diezel Einstein and it didn't work quite as well.

[csm]

I I also still love the older blue Valvetronix combo's.

 

 

THIS ...

 

 

 

... is one of those ... a Mk 1 AD120VT, using a Marshall Bluesbreaker patch for the soloing and a Twin model for the rhythm under the harmonica solos -- shot live on somebody's phone at a Friday night bar gig with Crosstown Lightnin'.

 

I make no claims for the playing -- there are a coupla clams in there -- but I like the tones, and I'm very happy to gig with this amp.

 

(My OTHER amp is a 1969 SF Fender Super Reverb.)

[BeanoBoy]

It's very good. Can't comment on gigging with modelers, but for recording Amplitube, Guitar Rig and Waves have plenty of inspiring tones and features. Save TONS of time when inspiration won't wait.

[orbm1]

I preferred the second clip so I can only assume that the first one is the real Marshall.

 

the second one sounds mic'd, you can feel some "Air-moving" qualities to it....

[orbm1]

1:40 gives me boner.

 

 

Pretty nice, but I though this pedalboard is just multi effects, no amp modeling involved... (maybe I am wrong)... One thing, you can get most of the sounds there from the gt10...

 

Thanks for sharing!

[vcnyls]

I have a Vox AD15VT and I love it. I'm a living room player and live in an apartment - While the effects/amp models are good enough to my ears for any situation, I think that my situation is what those amps are really made for. I can have 15 amps and 15 effects (something like that, don't know the exact number) in my apartment without my wife killing me for taking up all the space with amps, and it sounds more than good enough for my style of at home playing. That's where those amps shine. Not sure I would use one if I was playing Madison Square Garden, but odds of that happening ever are pretty much none.