Pro Tools 10

[temnov]

Greg, yes you mentioned that but let me say it one more time. Nothing new I've been using this "clip gain" feature in every mix for a while in Cubase. It's a very cool alternative to automation of a whole track and you can do it on the fly, literally.

Finally cames to PT user next to you

One more thing that is really cool with Cubase and Sonar and Reaper - we don't have to spend money for the same plagins again in new AAX format in a year or so.

I'm really waiting for news from Cubase as well, it's been while since the last upgrade.

Disclaimer: I use PT 9, too.

[MikeRivers]

 

About that Clip Gain... As has been pointed out numerous times, many programs have had this for a long, long time. But, I have to say after using Clip Gain, it's the best implementation I've seen in terms of flexibility. You can do static gain, where you basically change the level of the entire Clip, or dynamic gain, which can have changes. These can be done by adding nodes for breakpoint automation, drawing nodes in freehand, or applying shapes like lines, triangle modulation, random modulation, etc.

 

 

Well, it's about time. My Mackie HDR24/96 has been doing that since 1999. But it doesn't have a little handle, you have to drag the straight line envelope that appears when you turn on that view. If you want more than an overall gain change, like Pro Tools 10, you put nodes on the line and you can move it to have level changes throughout the clip (or, as we call it, "region." )

[Anderton]

As far as I can tell, Cubase won't let you draw arbitrary clip gain levels, or create periodic gain changes...am I missing something? Also, the rendering process in Pro Tools is extremely simple, and until it's rendered, you can bypass the clip automation if you want to compare with and without. It really is quite capable, so despite having used clip envelopes for well over a decade...credit where credit is due.

 

Oh, and Mike - Avid calls them "clips" now, not "regions." They made that change in PT 10 as well...guess they wanted to be in sync with most of the rest of the DAW world.

[Lee Knight]

Greg, yes you mentioned that but let me say it one more time. Nothing new I've been using this "clip gain" feature in every mix for a while in Cubase. It's a very cool alternative to automation of a whole track and you can do it on the fly, literally. Finally cames to PT user next to you One more thing that is really cool with Cubase and Sonar and Reaper - we don't have to spend money for the same plagins again in new AAX format in a year or so. I'm really waiting for news from Cubase as well, it's been while since the last upgrade. Disclaimer: I use PT 9, too.

You win!

[Lee Knight]

 

Well, it's about time. My Mackie HDR24/96 has been doing that since 1999. But it doesn't have a little handle, you have to drag the straight line envelope that appears when you turn on that view. If you want more than an overall gain change, like Pro Tools 10, you put nodes on the line and you can move it to have level changes throughout the clip (or, as we call it, "region." )

 

 

You win too!

[UstadKhanAli]

[Anderton]

I don't get the blowback; I haven't seen anything else that implements clip gain with the same depth. To paraphrase Jon Chappell, it's like Avid saying "Hey, we're really late for the party...we should probably bring wine and flowers to make up for it."

 

As to AAX, from what I understand, Pro Tools software will still read your existing plug-ins so you don't have to upgrade. However, bear in mind that the AAX process makes it much, much easier for companies to create AAX versions of existing plug-ins, so in theory it means there won't be a delay for RTAS versions of plug-ins to appear after the VST/AU ones.

 

Maybe Avid will drop support for older formats at some point, like Cubase did with DirectX...or maybe they'll be more like Cakewalk and Sony, both of whose programs still support DirectX.

 

Besides, FXpansion will probably make an anything-to-AAX wrapper

[temnov]

Craig, you are right about not able to you draw arbitrary clip gain levels in Cubase for now. I'm just used to combination of track automation and clip level and simple "envelope" changes

As about AAX and RTAS - it is about a price for update, some company will do it for free for existing clients and some will charge not a small amount for plugins you are used to use.

I think that AAX model is great, it really creates a new standard for session transfer between PT HD and Native. Price model is not.

[MikeRivers]

 

I don't get the blowback; I haven't seen anything else that implements clip gain with the same depth.

 

 

People get accustomed to using what they have and need a really good reason to make a switch. For someone who really needs the depth that you see in this feature, it's probably worth its weight in Tylenol. But someone who just needs to adjust the level of an edit or punch-in to match the track and can do that with what he's using now needs a better reason than that to switch to a new program.

 

 

As to AAX, from what I understand, Pro Tools software will still read your existing plug-ins so you don't have to upgrade.

 

 

That's my understanding, too, but it won't last forever. 10 is the last version for a number of things (last to support existing HD cards, LE hardware, Control 8/24, etc) so it may very well be the last to support RTAS plug-ins. They're going to get your money for plug-in upgrades sooner than later.

 

 

However, bear in mind that the AAX process makes it much, much easier for companies to create AAX versions of existing plug-ins, so in theory it means there won't be a delay for RTAS versions of plug-ins to appear after the VST/AU ones.

 

 

I'll file that one away with "It'll never go out of date because it's based on software." Nothing in programming is really easy. The only advantage that I can see for Pro Tools not working with VST plug-ins is to put more money into Avid's pocket. I think that's one of the things that gets people riled up.

[BushmasterM4]

Hey Mike. On a lighter note, my Mackie 1640i plays very well with Pro Tools 10. Mackie 1.9 drivers work like a charm. Did you ever get a 1640i or did you have the 1640 ?

[Anderton]

First of all...rest assured that my defending several aspects of PT10 is NOT a sign of the end times.

 

People get accustomed to using what they have and need a really good reason to make a switch. For someone who really needs the depth that you see in this feature, it's probably worth its weight in Tylenol. But someone who just needs to adjust the level of an edit or punch-in to match the track and can do that with what he's using now needs a better reason than that to switch to a new program.

 

I certainly don't think that having this kind of clip depth gain would be sufficient to entice anyone to switch programs. But if you're a PT user, having pre-processor automation is golden if you use amp sims. It's also wonderful for narration, so if someone did both a lot, it's a feature that would keep them from possibly switching to a different program that took care of their needs better - and the implementation is really good.

 

That's my understanding, too, but it won't last forever. 10 is the last version for a number of things (last to support existing HD cards, LE hardware, Control 8/24, etc) so it may very well be the last to support RTAS plug-ins. They're going to get your money for plug-in upgrades sooner than later.

 

Well all things must pass, the question is how long it takes. My answer today would be different than three years ago, because I get the impression that as far as PT development is concerned, these days the inmates are running the asylum. The people who were saying "We can't keep putting out substandard interfaces" and "We can't keep forcing people to use our hardware" are being listened to. Hopefully these people will also say "We can't just abandon RTAS users" when the time comes.

 

I'll file that one away with "It'll never go out of date because it's based on software." Nothing in programming is really easy.

 

AAX conversion is not about programming, but compiling. The way it was explained to me, you just take the plug-in you already have and compile it as AAX. That's why so many companies were able to announce they had AAX plug-ins at AES - it's more like saving a .doc document as .docx. You don't have to write a different document.

[BushmasterM4]

For me Craig, the ability to align wave files, not just midi, automatically or somewhat auto, was what enticed me to change. I tried Cubase 6 but found its GUI cluttered and difficult to use, not to mention system freezes. Though I just got PT10, within minutes I had several tracks recording. So I can see its a hell of a lot easier to navigate than Cubase. Not as easy as Tracktion 3, but I can at least move around and be productive and with time it will become second nature. Plus it works. Cant wait to dive into it more. I printed out the 1200 page manual and Im ready to go. Yes, Im one to read the manuals front to back. Most dive in and just click, I read and click

[Anderton]

Yes, Im one to read the manuals front to back. Most dive in and just click, I read and click

 

You know the old joke, right?

 

Q: What's a power user?

A: Someone who reads the manual

[MikeRivers]

 

Hey Mike. On a lighter note, my Mackie 1640i plays very well with Pro Tools 10. Mackie 1.9 drivers work like a charm. Did you ever get a 1640i or did you have the 1640 ?

 

 

Yes, I have a 1640i, as well as a Firewire option card for a 1220 and 1620. But I don't use any of those in the studio, and when I want to make a recording of a live show, I use a hardware recorder. My DAW setups are just for piddling and reviewing.

[MikeRivers]

 

I certainly don't think that having this kind of clip depth gain would be sufficient to entice anyone to switch programs. But if you're a PT user, having pre-processor automation is golden if you use amp sims.

 

 

Gosh! I don't even know what that means. Maybe I'd realize I missed it (but didn't know what it's called) if I used amplifier simulators, but I don't, so I don't. I'd think that with narration, you might have to goose up a swallowed word now and then (more now than then if you don't have a good narrator) and that would be a good job for what most of us have been calling the "volume envelope," which is apparently one of the ways that you can use what Pro Tools calls "clip gain" (another term that I didn't know what it meant until I saw the movie).

 

AAX conversion is not about programming, but compiling. The way it was explained to me, you just take the plug-in you already have and compile it as AAX.

 

 

I guess it depends on what you start with. If it's designed around RTAS source code (if that's even a valid concept - I really don't know since I don't write plug-ins) then it's simple. Maybe RTAS code will compile as AAX, but how about VST code? Or AU code? Can you push a button and make an AAX out of any other plug-in format? Probably not. It might be like C compilers, where the Windows one is different from the Unix one, and you have to go through the compiler error messages and straighten out the source for each compiler. But that's someone else's problem, and if something makes their work easier then I guess ultimately the users will benefit.

[temnov]

We look almost like a gearslutz

[Gus Lozada]

 

Hopefully these people will also say "We can't just abandon RTAS users" when the time comes.

 

 

... don't take my word for granted given I'm not in the development team for Pro Tools... BUT when they showed to me the early advances of Pro Tools 10, I DID UNDERSTAND (or mis-understood) -at that time- that RTAS support was just going away right from Pro Tools 10. I was really panicked. Then, a ton of last-minute changes and specs later, it was announced that RTAS was still alive in PT 10.

 

So, you can make sure the inmates running the asylum are doing the best they can.

[Ryst]

So I have been using PT10 with the CPTK for the last week or so and I'm very happy. It's fast and smooth. The clip gain is great and saves me from having to load a trim plugin for the most part. The new cache system is great for mixes with a lot of tracks and it's nice basically having PTHD software with the only difference being the I/O. My setup is for mixing and my own productions so I don't need a lot of I/O. The only thing I'd really like now is a phase button built into every channel of the mixer. Really...is that so hard to implement?

[Gus Lozada]

 

So I have been using PT10 with the CPTK for the last week or so and I'm very happy. It's fast and smooth. The clip gain is great and saves me from having to load a trim plugin for the most part. The new cache system is great for mixes with a lot of tracks and it's nice basically having PTHD software with the only difference being the I/O. My setup is for mixing and my own productions so I don't need a lot of I/O. The only thing I'd really like now is a phase button built into every channel of the mixer. Really...is that so hard to implement?

 

 

I don't know if it's hard to implement... BUT you have now that within the Channel Strip plug-in. And it sounds great and does not consume a lot of CPU.

[Geoff Grace]

Is anyone here using PT10 with Lion? If so, how are your third-party plug-ins behaving?

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Anderton]

 

Gosh! I don't even know what that means. Maybe I'd realize I missed it (but didn't know what it's called) if I used amplifier simulators, but I don't, so I don't.

 

 

Well, here's the deal. A lot of expressiveness with traditional guitar comes from varying its volume control as it feeds into an amp. There are multiple elements at play - primarily the amount of signal going to the amp (therefore determining the amount of clipping), but also lower loading effects from the amp as you turn the level down because there's more resistance between the guitar and amp, and a change in loading characteristics on the pickups. (FWIW Eleven Rack's True-Z input attempts to translate these characteristics to the amp sim part of the unit.)

 

Amp sims also respond to changes in input level, and it's cool be able to automate these changes - e.g., a rising level as you build up a chord so the drive gets more and more intense. But, you can't do that with traditional DAW automation, because it comes after the amp sim, not before, so you can only alter the output, not the drive.

 

The workarounds are to do your level variations in real time, but then the guitar's volume control is interacting with an interface's hi-Z input, not an amp input, which might not be what you want. The other is to automate the sim's drive control (if present). But with clip automation being before the processing, you can alter the drive going in, and with standard automation, control the output.

 

I realize that doesn't seem very rock and roll, but I use pre-processing clip gain all the time in Sonar to reduce the amount of drive when the guitar's playing rhythm, and bringing it up a bit in strategic places to add emphasis. The end result is that the amp sim sounds a lot more alive and expressive than having a "set and forget" drive level, because there's a timbral change, not just a level one.

 

As to narration, again, clip level is pre-processing so if you're using compression, then you can make sure that loud sections don't get overly compressed, and bring up levels that need to exceed the compression threshold...while using automation on the overall track. The result is a much more even sound, without having to use as much compression as you would if you wanted to make sure you "caught" all the words.

[Gus Lozada]

 

Is anyone here using PT10 with Lion? If so, how are your third-party plug-ins behaving? Best, Geoff

 

 

It has been really transparent, Geoff.

The only thing I had to update: DRIVERS. M-Audio interfaces, Mboxes, Eleven rack... and even the Neyrinck driver for V-Control for the iPad.

 

 

All of the plug-ins, from my few waves', to my Steven Slate Drums, AutoTune or Melodyne, everything just works.

[Anderton]

The only thing I'd really like now is a phase button built into every channel of the mixer. Really...is that so hard to implement?

 

Apparently not, it's in every Sonar console channel And their Channel Tools plug-in lets you flip phase independently for right and left channels.

 

I'm with you, though. I do a lot of phase-flipping techniques. (Here's one you might like: Take an audio track and put it through a phaser plug-in. Clone the track, but without the phaser. Flip the cloned track's phase, and adjust the level until everything but the phaser's "sidebands" cancel. It's a truly extreme phasing sound.)

[Ryst]

Well, to be fair I already have very extensive templates where most of my plugs are already set up and ready to go for mixing......so for instance on my "virtual SSL" template I have the VCC (4k) and the Waves SSL already on every track and the phase button is right there. So I think I was just being picky for no reason. Sorry.

[Ryst]

Apparently not, it's in every Sonar console channel And their Channel Tools plug-in lets you flip phase independently for right and left channels. I'm with you, though. I do a lot of phase-flipping techniques. (Here's one you might like: Take an audio track and put it through a phaser plug-in. Clone the track, but without the phaser. Flip the cloned track's phase, and adjust the level until everything but the phaser's "sidebands" cancel. It's a truly extreme phasing sound.)

Ooohh. I must try that one.