Members jpnyc Posted May 3, 2012 Members Share Posted May 3, 2012 The Marshall JTM 45 is often written of as if it were the first high-output guitar amplifier, despite the fact that the Fender Showman was a much higher output amp and was released two years before the JTM 45. Why did the Marshall JTM 45 catch on rather than the Fender Showman? Was the Showman just widely available? Was it not available in England? Was the sound just wrong for the music of The Who? Was the breakup of the Marshall amps more desirable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheFigurehead Posted May 3, 2012 Members Share Posted May 3, 2012 Was the breakup of the Marshall amps more desirable? It was more attainable. Cranking a Showman to overdrive it is not a comfortable experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BeanoBoy Posted May 3, 2012 Members Share Posted May 3, 2012 It was more attainable. Cranking a Showman to overdrive it is not a comfortable experience. This Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xrleroyx Posted May 3, 2012 Members Share Posted May 3, 2012 ...but it's super cool. So are cranked twins. But where can you do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jpnyc Posted May 3, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 3, 2012 ...but it's super cool. So are cranked twins. But where can you do that? Arenas and stadiums. That Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members crashclc Posted May 4, 2012 Members Share Posted May 4, 2012 I don't think the arena players are really pumping that much sound through their stacks - they would be killing people down in the front rows. The "wall of sound" is mostly a bunch of fake cabs for show. Most of the volume comes from the PA. So when you think about it, what's the point of an amp that is loud enough to melt the shell off a nuclear reactor? Can't really use it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Wyatt Posted May 4, 2012 Members Share Posted May 4, 2012 The Marshall JTM 45 is often written of as if it were the first high-output guitar amplifier, despite the fact that the Fender Showman was a much higher output amp and was released two years before the JTM 45. Why did the Marshall JTM 45 catch on rather than the Fender Showman? Was the Showman just widely available? Was it not available in England? Was the sound just wrong for the music of The Who? Was the breakup of the Marshall amps more desirable? The JTM45 is not high output. The JTM45 is a 30-watt amplifier. It's actually significantly lower output than the amp its copied from, the 45-watt '59-'60 5F6a Bassman. It wouldn't get high output until the JTM45/100, which would eventually lead to the Model 1959 JMP Superlead. The Marshall/Tweed Fender tone was just a thicker, easier to overdrive, more midrange-heavy tone that lead itself to rock at the time. But, it did get a big help from Jim Marshall being in the UK and being very responsive to customers where Fenders were always a rare import. The Twin and Showman would make their mark, even Hendrix had made a slow transition over to BF/SF Fenders, and most of the California-based classic rock bands would make extensive use of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Wyatt Posted May 4, 2012 Members Share Posted May 4, 2012 Arenas and stadiums. That Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jpnyc Posted May 4, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 4, 2012 You really have to study the context of everything. That Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rick 381 Posted May 4, 2012 Members Share Posted May 4, 2012 When I was young almost every band played Showmen and I can't remember ever seeing a Marshall. We judged how successful a band was by their amps, A poor band played Custom's with the tuck and roll carnival ride seat vinyl. A band that was a little more successful played Fender Showman. If they were really doing well they had two cabs per amp. A band making money, or at least having rich parents, played Vox Super Beatles. The first time I can remember seeing a Marshall live Hendrix was playing it. Fenders blew away Marshall in these part at least into the 70's. Showmen ruled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Doctor Morbius Posted May 4, 2012 Members Share Posted May 4, 2012 Showmans are still sought after by the surf guitar crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Angry Tele Posted May 4, 2012 Members Share Posted May 4, 2012 the twin reverb is very similar and it did indeed "catch on" maybe because Fender has so many amazing amps that they all competed with each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted May 4, 2012 Members Share Posted May 4, 2012 I think some of that has to do with the fact that before the Internet, it was easier to secure amps made locally and Jim Marshall was the guy who was closely in contact with a lot of guys in England who wanted to make a certain kind of music and Fender wasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jtr654 Posted May 4, 2012 Members Share Posted May 4, 2012 Showmen and Dual Showmen were way more popular in the 60's than Marshalls JMT 45 or Vox and were louder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members =JL= Posted May 4, 2012 Members Share Posted May 4, 2012 ALL Fender stuff was expensive and rare over here. Due to trade embargos enforced after the war to help rebuild our economy there wasn't an official Fender importer until the 60s. Even Hank Marvin had to order direct from Fender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StevenJM Posted May 4, 2012 Members Share Posted May 4, 2012 I don't think the arena players are really pumping that much sound through their stacks - they would be killing people down in the front rows. The "wall of sound" is mostly a bunch of fake cabs for show. Most of the volume comes from the PA. So when you think about it, what's the point of an amp that is loud enough to melt the shell off a nuclear reactor? Can't really use it? You're trying to tell me this wall of Marshalls is fake?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jpnyc Posted May 4, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 4, 2012 ALL Fender stuff was expensive and rare over here. Due to trade embargos enforced after the war to help rebuild our economy there wasn't an official Fender importer until the 60s. Even Hank Marvin had to order direct from Fender. I think that answer really explains it. It had not occurred to me that this might be due to postwar economic issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AXEL276 Posted May 4, 2012 Members Share Posted May 4, 2012 I have a '68 Blackface Dual Showman. It's 80 watts into 4 ohms. If I play thru 8 ohms it significantly lower in volume. Still loud but I can sit next to it. Actually even thru 4 ohms it's not as loud as my 50 watt Marshall DSL. I can dime it and it overdrives nice, if that's the sound you're into. Very vintage sounding, takes pedals nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrPFloyd Posted May 4, 2012 Members Share Posted May 4, 2012 You're trying to tell me this wall of Marshalls is fake?!?! Is that malmsteen? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chuck1016 Posted May 4, 2012 Members Share Posted May 4, 2012 ...but it's super cool. So are cranked twins. But where can you do that? Several years back I saw a band called Howlin Rain in a hall that had about 1,000 seats. When they went on, the singer went over to his 2 twins (which were mic'd) and cranked them. I'm not exaggerating when I say that it was so loud a lot of people (myself included) left! I could barely hear the drums and couldn't hear the other instruments at all. I waited outside until their set was over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Angry Tele Posted May 4, 2012 Members Share Posted May 4, 2012 I have a '68 Blackface Dual Showman. It's 80 watts into 4 ohms. If I play thru 8 ohms it significantly lower in volume. Still loud but I can sit next to it. Actually even thru 4 ohms it's not as loud as my 50 watt Marshall DSL. I can dime it and it overdrives nice, if that's the sound you're into. Very vintage sounding, takes pedals nicely. I used to have the same amp. a 68 silverface dual showman in a 65 blackface showman head...played through my twin reverb speakers is was not as loud and a bit darker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Django Sentenza Posted May 5, 2012 Members Share Posted May 5, 2012 The Marshall JTM 45 is often written of as if it were the first high-output guitar amplifier, despite the fact that the Fender Showman was a much higher output amp and was released two years before the JTM 45. Why did the Marshall JTM 45 catch on rather than the Fender Showman? Was the Showman just widely available? Was it not available in England? Was the sound just wrong for the music of The Who? Was the breakup of the Marshall amps more desirable? Lack of tastemanship is to blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BG76 Posted May 5, 2012 Members Share Posted May 5, 2012 I have an old Dual Showman and it sounds great. It's a Pre-CBS one. I also have one of the 90s ones which is a very underrated amp IMHO. Also have a few old Marshall amps including a Plexi and an old JTM-50 combo. They're all nice but the Fender and Marshall amps sound very different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rog951 Posted May 5, 2012 Members Share Posted May 5, 2012 Main reason the Marshall took off: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jtr654 Posted May 5, 2012 Members Share Posted May 5, 2012 You're probably right on that along with Hendrix ,Cream ,Deep Purple and most English bands touring the USA In the late 60's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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