Members mraia3 Posted August 5, 2012 Members Share Posted August 5, 2012 lulz. Good musicology is always good info. Death is not a requirement. That last example sounds southernish. Guitar based, harmonically static, ton of attitude and drumming that's On T.@MraiaI suppose the troll headline elicits all kinds of specificity - allowed if it's relevant. My concern with the original proposition, besides the quality of tune, is the drumming. The pro choice (of drumming) with hot guitar parts seems to be simple and spacious. This makes musical and commercial sense - no mystery there. Post your take if you like. OOOHhhhhhhh...NOw I see...well...ummm...Yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mraia3 Posted August 5, 2012 Members Share Posted August 5, 2012 I would think that there has to be a number of ways of looking at it. What are we playing FOR? Is it to MAKE MUSIC, or to SHOW OFF? Arguably, a band like RUSH is showing off, as is Dream Theater and the like. Can we then say that ACDC is making pure music? I dont know. Was Zep showing off, or bringing their talents to bear simply to create great music? Did Bonzos triplets enhance the music or his ego? Cream is a great example of the nether reaches of the argument. Fantastic SONGS...just plain good SONGS...though expertly played. Not terribly complex either. I think they could have unleashed stuff upon us mortals that would have been terribly terribly difficult. But they didnt. They just played their songs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted August 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 5, 2012 I would think that there has to be a number of ways of looking at it. What are we playing FOR? Is it to MAKE MUSIC, or to SHOW OFF? Arguably, a band like RUSH is showing off, as is Dream Theater and the like. Can we then say that ACDC is making pure music? I dont know. Was Zep showing off, or bringing their talents to bear simply to create great music? Did Bonzos triplets enhance the music or his ego? Cream is a great example of the nether reaches of the argument. Fantastic SONGS...just plain good SONGS...though expertly played. Not terribly complex either. I think they could have unleashed stuff upon us mortals that would have been terribly terribly difficult. But they didnt. They just played their songs. To me the thing about Zep was their primal union over Page's guitar work and Plant's unearthliness. Live, maybe they had the role to sell but the material survived. As to why we play, a kid (20s actually) talented amateur, likes fast punk and busy poser drumming was listening to me play some moldy RnB style and commented he'd never think of stuff like that. I parried, "ya gotta play what's on your mind". He agreed and that was that. But we do gotta play what's inside. So given I'm not the take the world by storm type, I look to method and knowhow. In this case, The primal 'rock - copation' of heavy guitar riffs. The good spots, what to do besides stay out the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cdawg Posted August 5, 2012 Members Share Posted August 5, 2012 i'd say cream is rock, imo. can't be categorized with zep and sabbath, etc. 1k, no offense, but you're a snob. musicians who listen to music are flawed, due to their knowledge about specific instruments. you should listen with different ears. a bad singer (or any specific instrument,) should be considered to be a weak link, but not the end of the band. for us to say a drummer played a certain way, and to discount him or the music, is a bit shallow. most music does not fit into the "progressive" formula (say, musician's music.) so i feel that you shouldn't be so judgemental. perfect example: the beatles. the whole is greater than the sum of parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted August 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 5, 2012 Snobs is clueless. Adopt opinions they were taught. Paice played that busy hottie style of the time IMO tramples the feel with every fill (the style not Paice per se). That was their "rockin' it" Beatles were the essence of good pop. Tune, the whole tune and nuthin but the tune. You're talkin' inverted and crosswise bringing them up in that context. Here's an interesting sidebar while I'm at it.Jon Lord also RIP displaying musical vision, intellect, and skill. Sj43riuXoBs The whole thing's on YTube. Not a milestone in classical music but this is the guy who wrote Smoke on the Water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mraia3 Posted August 5, 2012 Members Share Posted August 5, 2012 i'd say cream is rock, imo. can't be categorized with zep and sabbath, etc.1k, no offense, but you're a snob. musicians who listen to music are flawed, due to their knowledge about specific instruments. you should listen with different ears. a bad singer (or any specific instrument,) should be considered to be a weak link, but not the end of the band. for us to say a drummer played a certain way, and to discount him or the music, is a bit shallow. most music does not fit into the "progressive" formula (say, musician's music.) so i feel that you shouldn't be so judgemental. perfect example: the beatles. the whole is greater than the sum of parts. Good call on The Beatles. You would be surprised at how many bandmates, usually guitarists and bassists, insist to me that Charlie Watts and Ringo werent "good". This always astounds me! One guitarist I know, who is actually a high school music TEACHER no less, would argue day and night that Watts was useless. Though tellingly, he also thought Vai was the living end of all guitar players...Whos to judge? Would the Beatles be improved by Bonham or Moon, or Portnoy? Did Jumping Jack Flash suffer for lack of percussive density? I dont think so, but I guarantee someone here will tell me they did. Moving on. Cdawg, why wouldnt you place Cream in with Zep? I find the similarities pretty apparent. Expert players, a sense of gravitas, or importance, to their music and also to their images. Two bands that seemed to take themselves very seriously, but had the chops (regarding good songwriting) to pull it off. I wouldnt put Cream in with Sabbath, though. I find it to be very dissimilar music. But then, I am not a Sabbath fan. Not too much, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mraia3 Posted August 5, 2012 Members Share Posted August 5, 2012 Did Paice die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knightvalin Posted August 5, 2012 Members Share Posted August 5, 2012 1K1:Sorry, I must have misunderstood what you were asking, so maybe I'd better start over. Thread Title states all Hard Rock is the same. While I agree, to a point,with that statement, could you not say that about any genre of music? I mean, whether you play Klezmer, Folk, Country, Bluegrass, Rock, Blues, Jazz, they all come with specific parameters you have to play to identify with same. Despite all the genres and sub genres of Jazz, its gets its pulse from the ride pattern which has been around since Louis blew his way outa Storyville. I think its a tad unfair to compare Jazz with rock in a general sense: both have their rules and regs, and both have those who let the experimenters know when they've gone beyond the boundaries. Dizzy and Bird took the next logical step when they pioneered Bop: in Rock terms, its almost like Punk Jazz, stripping away all the artifice and getting down to one simple rule ( self admitted by them) ' we're doing something you can't'. That's not elitism, its just a fact. Now in Rock terms, as ' edgy' and 'groundbreaking' some of the usual players claimed to be, they were still functioning within a 3- 5 chord range, particular tempos, particular song forms. You can only mine that for so long, or, as ( one of my fave Canadian Bands) Max Webster put it...' You can only drive down Main Street so many times'. I've always been personally pulled towards Prog, although I certainly appreciate the other forms. The fact that its been trendy for the youngers to dump all over bands like The Beatles is appalling to me, as they basically showed how you could completely rewrite the Rock Rulebook to what you see fit. I'll be back with more clips, see if they fit what you're lookin for....:thu:PEACE:thu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted August 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 5, 2012 @Knightvalin No apology necessary. It's a troll title. All input welcome. I might argue a little ... Did Paice die? oops, checking ... editing lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cdawg Posted August 5, 2012 Members Share Posted August 5, 2012 Cdawg, why wouldnt you place Cream in with Zep? I find the similarities pretty apparent. Expert players, a sense of gravitas, or importance, to their music and also to their images. Two bands that seemed to take themselves very seriously, but had the chops (regarding good songwriting) to pull it off. I wouldnt put Cream in with Sabbath, though. I find it to be very dissimilar music. But then, I am not a Sabbath fan. Not too much, anyway. different eras. the late 60's/early 70's is about where "heavy metal" comes in, that's all. cream was done by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted August 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 5, 2012 no, it was in reference to good/and "guys who transcend those personal difficulties to make the music happen." i think the beatles are a perfect reference. you can't possibly say that the music wouldn't have been different with a "better" member or two. Beatles r gud. The MATERIAL is good. They pulled it off. You brought that up bcuz I prefer better material than DP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members skinthrasher Posted August 5, 2012 Members Share Posted August 5, 2012 I guess all pu$$y is the same because its all pink on the inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cdawg Posted August 5, 2012 Members Share Posted August 5, 2012 Beatles r gud. The MATERIAL is good. They pulled it off. You brought that up bcuz I prefer better material than DP? they pulled it off in spite of not having a group of people who didn't "transcend those personal difficulties to make the music happen." i said nothing about DP. this was my point. basically, don't be a "snob" about groups that are better than their components. get it?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fusionfunk Posted August 5, 2012 Members Share Posted August 5, 2012 Back in the 60's-70's, bands like Deep Purple, Zep, Blue Oyster Cult, Steppenwolf, Hendrix, Cream, Sabbath, etc., were referred to as 'Hard Rock'. As time went on that term evolved into 'Heavy Metal', but really, they have little to do with what is commonly thought of as 'metal' today. The style has definitely changed. And, I definitely do not agree that it's all the same. Not by a long shot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cdawg Posted August 5, 2012 Members Share Posted August 5, 2012 +1 (oh, and with that "+1" i'm a hall of famer. famer, not flamer. marko is up there somewhere callin' me on that one.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted August 6, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 they pulled it off in spite of not having a group of people who didn't "transcend those personal difficulties to make the music happen."i said nothing about DP. this was my point.basically, don't be a "snob" about groups that are better than their components. get it?? Nothing to get. You'r trying to make a point out of a basic concept of musicianship; one not at issue in this thread and certainly not relevant to your example. Move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cdawg Posted August 6, 2012 Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 you miss the real point, but ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted August 6, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 ^The point isn't real. By way of illustrating some hard rock rhythm theory and moving along, here's two takes of a Zep classic. The released version and some alternate experiment. Original: wEKkJHSO8A0 Alternate: TDLfDzeDG2c Notice the alternate right off has an antsy feel. Bonham is unsteady and feeling his way through; the kick drum is inconsistent and the part is still motivically loose. The arrangement is still experimental and nearly a completely different song!The release version; pared down to meaningful development at the essence of the vibe. Not an absolute of course - it's still music but the discipline and craft is very much revealed in the contrast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knightvalin Posted August 6, 2012 Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 1001: Max Webster: High Class In Borrowed Shoes.This was a way talented band, underrated here. Clip from late 70s. Drummer's name is Gary McCracken. Doesn't show off, doesn't 'Play the {censored}' out of kit ( although he could). Fills, accents , syncopation are all integral to the arrangement of the song. Then something completely different:Haywire: Operator Central SCREAMS late 80s/early 90s Drum sound: Snare that sound like a wood block, Bass drum that blows subs: Interesting rhythm in the chorus on the Ride Bell. Simplified Shuffle throughout. Fun song to play though. Mile a minute arpeggio solo, Chant Chorus....typical of the era. Nice way to go to the fade with a Harmonica.... Be back with more.:thu:PEACE:thu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted August 6, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 Good. Little on the cheesy side. I suppose that was the point in the 80s ? Lawyers, accountants, demographics .. Try heavier. -ZiiRKPczC8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mraia3 Posted August 6, 2012 Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 Where does Tool fit into this? Do they? Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted August 6, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 I was considering Danny C as a prime example of outside the box drumming. I'm otherwise Tool ignorant. Post away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Consume Posted August 6, 2012 Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 219qVSwzVNw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted August 6, 2012 Author Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 ^ dig this immensely. Won't ruin it with analysis lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Consume Posted August 6, 2012 Members Share Posted August 6, 2012 How about some VOIVOD? That should keep you scratching your head for a bit. LOL I saw these guys on tour and they were simply amazing. R4Ly8nstfxo QCAMqXJlWeQ bvXaLZZ6M3M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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