CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 the steady stream of hot little bitches at the massage parlors on vine and arch st... You mean at the washy-wash? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 Because there are still people who work and service the machines... Cutting your workforce by 75% doesn't help when the remaining 25% earn 10 times as much (or more)... Are you saying that half the game is 90% mental? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 I don't either country would do that great if that happened. If we were manufacturing our own goods, we'd be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ender_rpm Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 I have always wondered why automated factories aren't all located in the West. More automation = less labor cost per unit.As transportation costs rise for both shipping raw materials and finished goods, transportation will become any ever increasing part of total product cost.From strategic point of view, it is incredibly stupid to allow the production of our most advanced technologies by a potential adversary. There are 3 things preventing Automated Manufacturing from taking off (again) in the US 1. Unions- Many of the manufacturers that moed overseas did so because unions pushed too hard, for too long. 2. EPA regs- Making stuff is messy 3. Corporate taxes- Since they get passed on to the consumer, they make our manufactured goods less competitive than say, an EU-made item, where the VAT is refunded to the manufacturer when the item is exported. "Fix" those 3 issues, and maybe we'd be making stuff here again. Then again, who would want thier kid wokring in a factory in the early 21st century? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NeonVomit Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 Then again, who would want thier kid wokring in a factory in the early 21st century? That right there is it. No one really wants to grow up to be a factory worker when there's other options, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Goofball Jones Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 Then again, who would want thier kid wokring in a factory in the early 21st century? Hey, it keeps them out of trouble and off the streets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BikerOnBass Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 None, they would just come from an alternative source.India appears to be the next up & comer, but that's just speculation. In any case, someone will always be capable of taking the lions share of the work. The trend, at least with the OEM purchased parts, seems to be to attempt to move a large amount of production to the lowest bidder at that time, until the well dries up, then go out for market checks with large quote packages and find the next target area. We saw similar moves of production to Mexico, but that has slowed down significantly as wages have increased and materials and outside service (plating, painting, etc.) have actually become higher than in the US, triggering them to seek alternative opportunities. What the OEMs still seem confused about is that unless it is labor intense, in many cases it can be produced at an equal or even lesser amount in the US or other industrialized area. China producers are currently enjoying subsidized material buying power in addition to the low wage workforce, which combined is making them tough to compete with. But this will no doubt change in time, as it did in Mexico. The world community is pushing China right now for updated safety changes (such as OSHA regs) and normal economics will undoubtably force tax increases and reduced subsidies, so the playing field will even out in time. Will you see it all move back to the US? Not likely, it's a world market anymore, but the market will become more competitive, with the increased costs of production, the exchange rates and transportation costs equaling things out, so the US will get an increased market share out of the deal eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members burdizzos Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 Because there are still people who work and service the machines...Cutting your workforce by 75% doesn't help when the remaining 25% earn 10 times as much (or more)... Really? That's a huge stretch. Here's some old data, but I think it's still valid to illustrate the point. The average UAW assembler made $25.63/hr in 2003, while the average UAW skilled trades worker made $29.75/hr. I know a bunch of automation techs and none of them make anywhere near $250/hr. Hell, automation engineers don't even make that much. Just to stick with your easy to use numbers coupled with more realistic salaries, let's do a little math. A company with 100 employees has 75 people who make $25/hr(UAW's number) and 25 who make $30(the UAW skilled group). That's not completely unreasonable. Payroll (not including other costs which nearly double the cost to the company per hour) = $2625/hr If they automate and {censored}can everyone and replace them with 25 automation techs at $35/hr(a known approximate value for automation techs), then the payroll is now one third of the previous amount. Never mind the savings in lost time due to safety related incidents and training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members burdizzos Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 I'd be thrilled if my kid grows up and works in a state of the art factory. I'll be pissed if he grows up and works at an old dirty plant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boseengineer Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 Sounds like a miscommunication. Me thinks KK's argument was something like: 1 US worker cost the company 10 times as much as 1 Chinese worker. Even if it automation makes the US worker 3 times more productive, China can still produce cheaper a lot cheaper. Being to China many times myself, I'd like to add that "costing the company ten times as much" is not the same as "having a 10-times higher standard of living". Overheads and cost of living are quite different in both countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members burdizzos Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 I have always wondered why automated factories aren't all located in the West. More automation = less labor cost per unit. I think if KK wanted to say that it would still be cheaper to produce things in china, then he would have said it, but I'm sure he will be along shortly to tell me why I'm wrong anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members catphish Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 My bet is on new markets of cheap labor opening up India and Africa are the leading contenders. Edit: looks like this was already said. Yes, it's all speculation at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RSBro Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 I'd miss Chinese food. Werd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 I think if KK wanted to say that it would still be cheaper to produce things in china, then he would have said it, but I'm sure he will be along shortly to tell me why I'm wrong anyway. It's okay. Just remember you always have each other, no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FreestyleIntruder Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 I don't think I would miss any products, but I would certainly miss all the paranoid 'ZOMG CHINA IS TAKING OVER!!!!' threads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 I don't think I would miss any products, but I would certainly miss all the paranoid 'ZOMG CHINA IS TAKING OVER!!!!' threads Not from around here, are ya'? You can walk into any store in the US and be hard-pressed to find a dozen products made here, but pick up almost anything and the odds are excellent it'll be MIC. We're long past the point of, "China *is* taking over". China *has* taken over. Now we're experiencing the economic effects of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pickdust Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 what products would you miss the most? Um..............the lead man...............THE LEAD!!!!!! PD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emprov Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 We're long past the point of, "China *is* taking over". China *has* taken over. Now we're experiencing the economic effects of this. Yep. I absolutely stinks that companies like Cisco and IBM can have overseas markets such as China to even things out when they're having a rough time of it in the US. And, as far as what I'd miss, it depends. Are we including Taiwan? If so, I'd miss Giant bicycles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 Yep. I absolutely stinks ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 And, as far as what I'd miss, it depends. Are we including Taiwan? If so, I'd miss Giant bicycles. I'm sure the tooling, and workers to use it, still exists somewhere in the US. Someone will build you a bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emprov Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 I'm sure the tooling, and workers to use it, still exists somewhere in the US. Someone will build you a bike. Giant is a huge manufacturer of frames, making a ton of frames for many of the major companies. Either Specialized or Trek buys their lower end frames from Giant, can't remember which one. Anyway, their complete bikes sell at a much lower price point than comparable component groups. So sure, someone in the US would make one, it'd be a heck of a lot more expensive though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 Giant is a huge manufacturer of frames, making a ton of frames for many of the major companies. Either Specialized or Trek buys their lower end frames from Giant, can't remember which one. Anyway, their complete bikes sell at a much lower price point than comparable component groups. So sure, someone in the US would make one, it'd be a heck of a lot more expensive though. You sure? Having a job to pay for anything, let alone a more-expensive bike, is better than not working. That's the point, always has been. In case you aren't noticing, nobody buys *our* stuff very much. We have a trade *imbalance* that's larger than the GNP of large countries and the money is going the wrong way. We can't sustain that. For the past decade or two, "so what, my house keeps appreciating, I can charge it and then pay it off with equity" has been the mantra. Oh well, now that's gone..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members collinwho Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 You sure? Having a job to pay for anything, let alone a more-expensive bike, is better than not working. That's the point, always has been. In case you aren't noticing, nobody buys *our* stuff very much. We have a trade *imbalance* that's larger than the GNP of large countries and the money is going the wrong way. We can't sustain that. For the past decade or two, "so what, my house keeps appreciating, I can charge it and then pay it off with equity" has been the mantra. Oh well, now that's gone..... We have offices full of positions all over America. The American workforce has shifted from the assembly line to the cube farm, and while this does require more skill, it also generally offers better compensation. Unemployment has been trending downward steadily since 2003, and to go a little more historical, it has been on a fairly steady decline since the mid 80's when it was at its worst. It is misleading to say the jobs aren't here, because they are, they just require a different set of skills, now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 We have offices full of positions all over America. The American workforce has shifted from the assembly line to the cube farm, and while this does require more skill, it also generally offers better compensation. Unemployment has been trending downward steadily since 2003, and to go a little more historical, it has been on a fairly steady decline since the mid 80's when it was at its worst. It is misleading to say the jobs aren't here, because they are, they just require a different set of skills, now. Unemployment figures are misleading, because in general salaries are soft or slipping (definitely in the last year or so), and quality of life has suffered. Many of these supposedly better cubicle jobs require open hours...the job pays hourly-like wages, but is salary based, so there's no compensation for the Saturday afternoon report work, or the 8pm conference call with some office around the world....just another "perk" from the global economy. Making matters worse is that many of the jobs have little or no advancement. Possibly worst of all, is that there's no such thing as loyalty on the part of the employer. You're supposed to work the hours, and have the "can-do attitude" but not expect any security beyond your last paycheck. The shift of jobs away from manufacturing is no secret. But it's not a good thing. A balanced economy that can both lead in technical and information services as well as produce the products is what is needed. We've lost that balance and are suffering for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted February 12, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 12, 2008 I'm not sure how automated one could make a plant and truly be productive. That is one of the things that killed GM for a while. By attempting to replace the worker with machines, retooling a factory for precision is expensive. If that product is a miss, retooling must be done once again. Expensive. That lather, rinse and repeat process just doesn't get it done in a fast paced and constantly changing market. With the dollar being devalued on the world market right now, it can only help US exporters such as Caterpillar. If we stopped trading with China, I would miss all of the "SX is the greatest bass ever made in the entire world" threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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