Members NeonVomit Posted February 13, 2008 Members Share Posted February 13, 2008 The big question is... What will happen to the economy if China pulled out all the money they've invested in the US? India says 'Thank you China!' and fills the gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RSBro Posted February 13, 2008 Members Share Posted February 13, 2008 The big question is... What will happen to the economy if China pulled out all the money they've invested in the US? Just an off, dude I played the Q5 fretless for about an hour last night- are you SUUURE you want that thing? I mean, it's just absolutely horrible, especially with the Lane Poor soloed at the neck spot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 13, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 IIRC it wasn't Paul. But maybe that was Thudmaker and not you. I could be wrong. It's happened before. I haven't decided. I don't really care for McCain, but I suppose he's better than Huckabee, who I don't really know at all until this campaign. Ron Paul has some good ideas, and some I really don't care for. But he's a moot point, so it's a waste of time to consider him at all. As of last night, I saw on the news that he's got 14 delegates. He should have dropped out long ago, but he's obviously doing it to {censored} over the party. And folks wonder why he's given no slack at all. On the other side, Obama, hell anyone, is better than Clinton. But both are extremely weak candidates. No real resume. If it weren't for the overwhelming hatred of Bush, neither would be remotely electable. As a whole, this is one {censored}ty election. I've never felt more apathy regarding the candidates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RSBro Posted February 13, 2008 Members Share Posted February 13, 2008 snip Yeah, after Paul, I'm really not sure who, if anyone, I'd vote for... I just don't see any positives from the rest of the pack in my book, or very much at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Retrovertigo Posted February 13, 2008 Members Share Posted February 13, 2008 UAW workers are not hurting for anything (particularly for their skill and education levels). While I don't normally post in these types of threads, I feel the need to say "bull{censored}" to this (with all due respect...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jugghaid Posted February 13, 2008 Members Share Posted February 13, 2008 I haven't decided. I don't really care for McCain, but I suppose he's better than Huckabee, who I don't really know at all until this campaign. Ron Paul has some good ideas, and some I really don't care for. But he's a moot point, so it's a waste of time to consider him at all. As of last night, I saw on the news that he's got 14 delegates. He should have dropped out long ago, but he's obviously doing it to {censored} over the party. And folks wonder why he's given no slack at all.On the other side, Obama, hell anyone, is better than Clinton. But both are extremely weak candidates. No real resume. If it weren't for the overwhelming hatred of Bush, neither would be remotely electable.As a whole, this is one {censored}ty election. I've never felt more apathy regarding the candidates. Very {censored}ty election. IMHO Paul isn't trying to {censored} over the party by staying in. He's trying to change the party from within so that we don't end up with Liberals like McCain getting the GOP nod for prez. I don't agree with him on everything either, but he's a far sight better than the rest of them and one HELL of a lot more of a true conservative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 13, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 Very {censored}ty election.IMHO Paul isn't trying to {censored} over the party by staying in. He's trying to change the party from within so that we don't end up with Liberals like McCain getting the GOP nod for prez. I don't agree with him on everything either, but he's a far sight better than the rest of them and one HELL of a lot more of a true conservative. That's the thing. I don't think I want a 'true' conservative. I'm pro-choice, pro-gun, and all for social programs that make sense and are well run (okay, so I'm not for social programs when you look at it that way:D). I want smaller government, but not at any cost. Things need to make sense to me. I pay taxes, so I don't like being told they're going up because I'm supposed to care about everyone. The truth is, I don't care about everyone, I care about myself and my family. If there's time after that, I donate it. If there's money after that, I donate it too. But I can't be okay with being forced to care for people who will, and would, never return the favor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Goofball Jones Posted February 13, 2008 Members Share Posted February 13, 2008 Just so long as we keep getting this export: (Ziyi Zhang in case you didn't know who she was) (image fixed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 13, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 Just so long as we keep getting this export: (Ziyi Zhang in case you didn't know who she was) I know she's a red, but here she's just a red X. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jugghaid Posted February 13, 2008 Members Share Posted February 13, 2008 That's the thing. I don't think I want a 'true' conservative. I'm pro-choice, pro-gun, and all for social programs that make sense and are well run (okay, so I'm not for social programs when you look at it that way:D). I want smaller government, but not at any cost. Things need to make sense to me. I pay taxes, so I don't like being told they're going up because I'm supposed to care about everyone. The truth is, I don't care about everyone, I care about myself and my family. If there's time after that, I donate it. If there's money after that, I donate it too. But I can't be okay with being forced to care for people who will, and would, never return the favor. Abortion is one of the areas I disagree with him on. Same with the Death penalty. And I think social programs should be handled on a state and local level. Most of the other stuff I really agree with him on though. I'll never find a candidate I agree with 100%, but he's as close as it has come. And by "true" conservative, I mean fiscally. I'm pretty socially liberal actually, as he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted February 13, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2008 In a mostly urban area like Detroit/Dearborn, $26/hr doesn't go far. And assuming a working spouse, or a spouse, is presumptious and not the point. I'd love to see you show me the numbers that put our UAW guy in a Tahoe in a gated community. I'll even lower the "Yacht" to a bass boat. On $54,000. Go for it.I'm 5 minutes from a UAW plant. The UAW isn't just a union that is in the "Big Three" plants. Caterpillar and John Deere (among others) are also UAW. This town is Cat yellow. Don't tell me that $26/hr isn't good pay. It's the best paying job in town that doesn't require a college education and most of the workers live in decent, clean middle class neighborhoods. I'm sorry that Detroit is so expensive to live in, but it is a free country. One can always move to an area with a lower cost of living. BTW, I see lots of bass boats around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 13, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 I'm 5 minutes from a UAW plant. The UAW isn't just a union that is in the "Big Three" plants. Caterpillar and John Deere (among others) are also UAW. This town is Cat yellow. Don't tell me that $26/hr isn't good pay. It's the best paying job in town that doesn't require a college education and most of the workers live in decent, clean middle class neighborhoods. I'm sorry that Detroit is so expensive to live in, but it is a free country. One can always move to an area with a lower cost of living. BTW, I see lots of bass boats around here. Did I say it wasn't good pay? No. *You* said it was too much pay, and then went off on the hyperbole train about yachts and gated communities. I'm saying it's appropriate pay for the job, and it's not the reason for the Big Three's woes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted February 13, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2008 Did I say it wasn't good pay? No. *You* said it was too much pay, and then went off on the hyperbole train about yachts and gated communities. I'm saying it's appropriate pay for the job, and it's not the reason for the Big Three's woes. Yes you did say it wasn't good pay. You said a family of four wasn't going to be able to hack it if dear old dad was bringing in $26/hr. If it's appropriate pay for the job, then why is it that it's cheaper to have it manufactured overseas and then freighted back into the States? That's a clear indication that the pay received isn't appropriate for the job. Either that or what everyone is willing to pay for other goods (including housing) is too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 13, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 If it's appropriate pay for the job, then why is it that it's cheaper to have it manufactured overseas and then freighted back into the States? It isn't, and that's been my point all along. The Japanese government subsidizes businesses that export to the US. They pay for it with duties collected on the sale of US goods there. If we competed on a level playing field, we'd be able to dig out of this hole. It's a team effort there, unlike in the US. And really, how much you gonna drop these hourly wages? How much do you think that'll save? Will it offset the $1500 per car they're paying for pensioners? There are things that have to change, but blaming the problems on assembly line worker wages isn't the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jugghaid Posted February 13, 2008 Members Share Posted February 13, 2008 It isn't, and that's been my point all along. The Japanese government subsidizes businesses that export to the US. They pay for it with duties collected on the sale of US goods there. If we competed on a level playing field, we'd be able to dig out of this hole.It's a team effort there, unlike in the US.And really, how much you gonna drop these hourly wages? How much do you think that'll save? Will it offset the $1500 per car they're paying for pensioners? There are things that have to change, but blaming the problems on assembly line worker wages isn't the answer. It's not the wages. The $26 a n hour wage isn't the problem. It's the other additional $50 per hour in compensation through benefits and retirements packages that's killing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 13, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 Yes you did say it wasn't good pay. You said a family of four wasn't going to be able to hack it if dear old dad was bringing in $26/hr. There's my exact quote. I didn't say it wasn't good pay. I said it's not enough to support a family of four, in response to your assertion that it's "simply too much". I put the wage into the perspective of real life, as opposed to your dream of livin' large on $50K. This is all diversion from the real problems and reasons the Big Three can't compete. You should be looking at your Congressman, not the guy running a 5-lug wrench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jugghaid Posted February 13, 2008 Members Share Posted February 13, 2008 I would still put a really good share of the blame on the UAW. Like many unions they don't know when they are killing the goose that laid the golden egg. And $50k is not a bad living. It's doulbe the median income in this country The median income per household member (including all working and non-working members above the age of 14) in the year 2006 was $26,036 Source: US Census Bureau Median Household income was $48,201.00 Better than the average household income from 1 earner is not really too bad. Add in about twice that much in other compensation and you're doing pretty damn well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 13, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 It's not the wages. The $26 a n hour wage isn't the problem. It's the other additional $50 per hour in compensation through benefits and retirements packeages that's killing them. Then deal with that. Part of it goes back to the healtcare costs we've been discussing in the other thread. Fix that and the cost goes down to $30/hr extra. Part of it is ridiculous deals expected by the UAW. That's not the worker's fault...very few have any real say in what their representation does. Beyond voting to strike after being told a doomsday story, most have zero input into their negotiation process. The UAW is second only to the Teamster's in being among the worst examples of labor unions spiting themselves. Fix the pension package to be reasonable, and you've got it down to where every other company is....roughly double the hourly wage to provide the total compensation package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jugghaid Posted February 13, 2008 Members Share Posted February 13, 2008 Then deal with that. Part of it goes back to the healtcare costs we've been discussing in the other thread. Fix that and the cost goes down to $30/hr extra. Part of it is ridiculous deals expected by the UAW. That's not the worker's fault...very few have any real say in what their representation does. Beyond voting to strike after being told a doomsday story, most have zero input into their negotiation process. The UAW is second only to the Teamster's in being among the worst examples of labor unions spiting themselves.Fix the pension package to be reasonable, and you've got it down to where every other company is....roughly double the hourly wage to provide the total compensation package. And they are working through that. They have to or they will be out of business. And I agree. The UAW is horrible. Not the workers fault, but they should boot them. In fact non-union shops can offer as good or better comepnsation to their employees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 13, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 I would still put a really good share of the blame on the UAW. Like many unions they don't know when they are killing the goose that laid the golden egg.And $50k is not a bad living. It's doulbe the median income in this country Source: US Census BureauMedian Household income was $48,201.00Better than the average household income from 1 earner is not really too bad. Add in about twice that much in other compensation and you're doing pretty damn well. If you put this into perspective with the areas most of the plants are located, the wage isn't too high. For those in rural areas, it's a good wage. But the city and suburban plants are a different story. I didn't intend for this to become a "thing", but the characterization of a factory guy living like Fresh Prince rubbed me the wrong way. I know a lot of people who have to try to raise a family on similar income, and it's not bass-boat-Tahoe land by any stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted February 13, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2008 There's my exact quote. I didn't say it wasn't good pay. I said it's not enough to support a family of four, in response to your assertion that it's "simply too much". I put the wage into the perspective of real life, as opposed to your dream of livin' large on $50K.Your assertion that $26/hr is not a sustainable wage for a family of 4 is simply a narrow view based upon several locations within America with a high cost of living. I never suggested the guy making $54k was living large. There are plenty of people in America making do with significantly less. You can continue to twist my posting, but I stated "The only way that ($54,000 plus haleth, dental, vision) isn't OK for a family of four is because they need a Tahoe to pull the Yacht and live in a gated community." To a normal person that means that $54,000 plus health, plus dental, plus vision is going to put food on the table unless of course you want to overspend and go into deep credit card debt. But you can continue to twist it however you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted February 13, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2008 There are things that have to change, but blaming the problems on assembly line worker wages isn't the answer.Manufacturing jobs are leaving the North because corporations are tired of dealing with the "me" mentality that has been built into the workers by the unions. Did you know that years ago when the workers would strike here, they would simply call the bank and tell them they were striking and the bank would wait for payments once the strike was settled? Did you know that prior to the last strike some union members wore t-shirts into the shop that suggested the CEO be terminated. The Union was trying to help these dudes get their jobs back. They supposedly did nothing wrong according to some agreement. I'd like to get away with nonsense like that and have a union help me keep my job. Don't blame the workers? There's plenty of blame to go around. The "workers" won't be getting a free pass from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted February 13, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2008 IIRC it wasn't Paul. But maybe that was Thudmaker and not you. I could be wrong. It's happened before. Who have I stated that I support? And what are we talking about here. Depending on what day it is, I have a different candidate. That's how unclear the field is this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted February 13, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2008 I know a lot of people who have to try to raise a family on similar income, and it's not bass-boat-Tahoe land by any stretch.I know a lot of those people, too. They do just fine. You can continue to be rubbed raw by my comment. You simply twisted it into what you wanted it to say, which is the opposite of what I actually stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jugghaid Posted February 13, 2008 Members Share Posted February 13, 2008 Who have I stated that I support? And what are we talking about here. Depending on what day it is, I have a different candidate. That's how unclear the field is this year. You haven't. But you have bagged on Paul a bit IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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