Moderators ThudMaker Posted February 12, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 12, 2008 The shift of jobs away from manufacturing is no secret. But it's not a good thing. A balanced economy that can both lead in technical and information services as well as produce the products is what is needed. We've lost that balance and are suffering for it.Yup! The question is how do we get back to that balance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emprov Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 You sure? Having a job to pay for anything, let alone a more-expensive bike, is better than not working. That's the point, always has been. In case you aren't noticing, nobody buys *our* stuff very much. When we give the rest of the world such compelling arguments to buy Fords, Chevys and Dodges, it's little wonder why more of them don't buy overseas. Personally, I don't imagine that I'll ever buy another car from an American manufacturer. Don't blame China because our cars suck, it's our own fault. If we built quality products at reasonable prices, I'm guessing that more people would buy them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members collinwho Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 Unemployment figures are misleading, because in general salaries are soft or slipping (definitely in the last year or so), and quality of life has suffered. Many of these supposedly better cubicle jobs require open hours...the job pays hourly-like wages, but is salary based, so there's no compensation for the Saturday afternoon report work, or the 8pm conference call with some office around the world....just another "perk" from the global economy. Making matters worse is that many of the jobs have little or no advancement. Possibly worst of all, is that there's no such thing as loyalty on the part of the employer. You're supposed to work the hours, and have the "can-do attitude" but not expect any security beyond your last paycheck.The shift of jobs away from manufacturing is no secret. But it's not a good thing. A balanced economy that can both lead in technical and information services as well as produce the products is what is needed. We've lost that balance and are suffering for it. I don't know the type of work that you do, but I've worked in a ton of cubicle farms, and beyond everything else the first thing you learn is that you can get away with way more than you ever could when you did physical labor, because the last thing any company wants to do is fire you and pay to train a replacement. Yes it is hard to advance, but that is and always has been true in most jobs, to try and say that is a new problem is misleading. More than ever, employees now have the ability to move from jobs that aren't fulfilling. I can find a different position, using the training my current company paid for, and then either force my company to offer better compensation, or leave for someone else who offers better compensation. There are plenty of salary jobs that don't require 8pm meetings or unpaid weekend. There are plenty of cubicle jobs that don't require salaried compensation. These are issues for some people at some jobs, but they gain the experience and training to leave that job and find somewhere that doesn't require this of them. Why do we need a balance? What is the benefit of converting a portion of our workforce back to manufacturing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emprov Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 Why do we need a balance? What is the benefit of converting a portion of our workforce back to manufacturing? When our money goes to overseas product, money flows into their economies much more than it does ours -- it's kinda of like giving cash away. When it's spent on US products, it stays home and feeds almost 100% into our economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members collinwho Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 When our money goes to overseas product, money flows into their economies much more than it does ours -- it's kinda of like giving cash away. When it's spent on US products, it stays home and feeds almost 100% into our economy. Yes, but if more units can be manufactured elsewhere for the same price, then more units will be sold, which, theoretically, leads to a net gain for the American company, and by extension the American economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Perfessor Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 I'm hoping the oil doesn't stop flowing from Venezuala. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emprov Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 Yes, but if more units can be manufactured elsewhere for the same price, then more units will be sold, which, theoretically, leads to a net gain for the American company, and by extension the American economy. Ah, I misunderstood your original post. I don't think that we need to be a manufacturing hub, but we do need to figure out a way to balance things out a bit more effectively. I'd really like to see us more reliant on ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 Yes, but if more units can be manufactured elsewhere for the same price, then more units will be sold, which, theoretically, leads to a net gain for the American company, and by extension the American economy. It isn't US corps that have merely moved production offshore, it's foreign corps that have taken the business. The product is made overseas, and sold here. The only money that stays in the US is the small slice of retail profit taken by the final retailer, and if that retailer happens to be foreign owned, only the wages earned by the few US workers in that store stay here. Again, just look up "trade imbalance, or deficit" to see how much money we lose to imports. We can't make money if we have nothing to sell. Selling services if fine, but we're losing even these jobs at an alarming rate to India and a few other countries. Just call customer service for anything, and listen to the voice on the phone. Ask anyone in IT about how many jobs are outsourced offshore today....even this, the supposed "growth industry" isn't growing in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emprov Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 I'm hoping the oil doesn't stop flowing from Venezuala.Exxon, hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NeonVomit Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 I'm hoping the oil doesn't stop flowing from Venezuala. I hope it does. Chavez can keep his oil, and he can get poor and be lynched. I hate that guy and I hope he's dragged through the streets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chubrocker Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 I'm trying to find it on the internet, but I remember reading a compelling article of how the US will eventually have manufacturing return to the US. With immigration occurring at a high rate and countries like Mexico and Korea that are experiencing increased labor costs (hey, they want to make more money too!), the US will want to take advantage of the increased low-skilled workers. I'm NOT knowledgeable in these topics, so I shouldn't comment---but I'm hoping someone here knows the article I'm talking about and post a link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members collinwho Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 It isn't US corps that have merely moved production offshore, it's foreign corps that have taken the business. The product is made overseas, and sold here. The only money that stays in the US is the small slice of retail profit taken by the final retailer, and if that retailer happens to be foreign owned, only the wages earned by the few US workers in that store stay here.Again, just look up "trade imbalance, or deficit" to see how much money we lose to imports. We can't make money if we have nothing to sell. Selling services if fine, but we're losing even these jobs at an alarming rate to India and a few other countries. Just call customer service for anything, and listen to the voice on the phone. Ask anyone in IT about how many jobs are outsourced offshore today....even this, the supposed "growth industry" isn't growing in the US. I definitely see that coporations moving their entire operations overseas would be problematic, but that doesn't really seem to be happening at the rate that the doomsayers want us to believe. If all these jobs are leaving, why isn't unemployment going up? Certainly people are losing jobs, but as a group they are finding other positions, otherwise unemployment would be skyrocketing. The news is regularly reporting about individuals who haven't been able to find things after a job has been sent overseas, and that does happen, but it isn't sweeping the nation and destroying our economy as they would like you to believe. This doesn't count for anything because its just an individual experience, not an actual study or anything, but I can't remember the last time I talked to someone who wasn't located in the USA. My bank has call centers right around here that I am always connected to, my insurance has their call center in Alabama, when I called into my cell-phone carrier the last time I talked to someone in Philadelphia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 I definitely see that coporations moving their entire operations overseas would be problematic, but that doesn't really seem to be happening at the rate that the doomsayers want us to believe. If all these jobs are leaving, why isn't unemployment going up? Certainly people are losing jobs, but as a group they are finding other positions, otherwise unemployment would be skyrocketing. The news is regularly reporting about individuals who haven't been able to find things after a job has been sent overseas, and that does happen, but it isn't sweeping the nation and destroying our economy as they would like you to believe. This doesn't count for anything because its just an individual experience, not an actual study or anything, but I can't remember the last time I talked to someone who wasn't located in the USA. My bank has call centers right around here that I am always connected to, my insurance has their call center in Alabama, when I called into my cell-phone carrier the last time I talked to someone in Philadelphia. Sprint, Verizon, Comcast, just to name a few, all have the *majority* of their call centers overseas. Be careful, and ask the right questions....most companies keep a domestic presence so they can say they have US call centers. But that doesn't mean you're going to get someone here most of the time. For proof of overseas products overrunning us, next time you're in a store...doesn't have to be Wal*Mart or Target, just look at the 'made in' for a bunch of stuff. And look into the ownership of the company in question. I'm not saying everything is imported, but the majority of products you'll find in the average US mall certainly are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emprov Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 For proof of overseas products overrunning us, next time you're in a store...doesn't have to be Wal*Mart or Target, just look at the 'made in' for a bunch of stuff. And look into the ownership of the company in question. I'm not saying everything is imported, but the majority of products you'll find in the average US mall certainly are. Again, if we can't put out a product that can compete with those that are being made overseas, why do you want to punish China? Why not focus our energy into making products that people will actually buy? Seems like that'd be a better move all the way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NeonVomit Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 Abolish the minimum wage for factory workers. That'll kick manufacturing back into shape! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members collinwho Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 Sprint, Verizon, Comcast, just to name a few, all have the *majority* of their call centers overseas. Be careful, and ask the right questions....most companies keep a domestic presence so they can say they have US call centers. But that doesn't mean you're going to get someone here most of the time.For proof of overseas products overrunning us, next time you're in a store...doesn't have to be Wal*Mart or Target, just look at the 'made in' for a bunch of stuff. And look into the ownership of the company in question. I'm not saying everything is imported, but the majority of products you'll find in the average US mall certainly are. Sprint is my cell phone provider. The last person I talked to was from Philadelphia. We briefly talked about the weather, Mpls and Phillie had both had a storm the night before. Comcast also has local offices. I actually called into the call center to switch my products about a month ago, and then I went into their office and talked to the exact same person that I had talked to on the phone. I don't know about the rest of the products, but I know that the clothing at Target is all designed in house, even including other "brands". Mossimo, Cherokee, etc are designed right here in downtown Mpls, and then manufactured overseas. Hell, I personally know a couple of people who previously did garment design for Target. Its manufactured overseas, but designed in America, and that holds true for the majority of Target house brands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 I hope it does. Chavez can keep his oil, and he can get poor and be lynched. I hate that guy and I hope he's dragged through the streets. Here in the US there's some controversy over Citgo ("A US corporation owned by the people of Venezuela.....whatever that means) and a company called Citizen's Energy selling "cheap" heating oil to senior citizens and others in need. I'm not sure how I feel about it, because Joe Kennedy II makes TV commercials extolling our "Venezualan friends" (Is Hugo one of them??) and I have to wonder....what's he selling here? Himself? Venezuala? Citgo? If it's a charitable program, then save the tv commercial costs and put them towards a few dozen more tanks of oil into someone's cold house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted February 12, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 12, 2008 Worrying about whether a job moves from the US to China is about as important as worrying about whether a job moves from Chicago to Tulsa. It has an effect, but it is only "bad" if you have some hangups about trying to avoid the world economy. To me, listening to people complain about foreign products is equivalent to listening to people complain about rival sports teams. One world, one love. Borders, literally and figuratively, are falling everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 Again, if we can't put out a product that can compete with those that are being made overseas, why do you want to punish China? Why not focus our energy into making products that people will actually buy? Seems like that'd be a better move all the way around. A few points: 1. I'm not looking to 'punish' China. I couldn't possibly care whether China flourishes or dies. I'm looking out for my own country. No other country cares about the US beyond how our economy effects theirs. 2. We can put out products that kick everyone's asses. We can't sell them competitively when, for instance, US plants have to meet emissions standards that foreign plants don't, when foreign countries impose punitive import duties on US goods so the US stuff isn't nearly as desirable (price an Ampeg SVT anywhere outside the US...it doesn't cost double because of shipping...) and the US does nothing like this at all. A level playing field would go a long way toward making US products competitive. We don't have quality problems per se, we have sale problems. 3. And point #2 leads us here...manufacturers are reluctant to put R&D into new or better products if they know the market is limited. This goes exactly to what I constantly bitch about Behringer. Uli 'borrows' intellectual property, which creates an unfair playing field. Other sound companies know this, and it affects their willingness to create a new product. It's no different with any other industry...why should a US company invest in a product only to have a Chinese company make it and sell it here for less, while the US company isn't even allowed to sell theirs in China for a competitive price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 Worrying about whether a job moves from the US to China is about as important as worrying about whether a job moves from Chicago to Tulsa. It has an effect, but it is only "bad" if you have some hangups about trying to avoid the world economy. To me, listening to people complain about foreign products is equivalent to listening to people complain about rival sports teams. One world, one love. Borders, literally and figuratively, are falling everywhere. Bull{censored}. Read my last post regarding import duties. There's a border, but it works like a diode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted February 12, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 12, 2008 Bull{censored}. Read my last post regarding import duties. There's a border, but it works like a diode. Falling doesn't mean, non-existent. In time that'll change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 Falling doesn't mean, non-existent. In time that'll change. We can hope. But I see no indication, except from Ron Paul, of any attempt to level the trade playing field. We should be concentrating on this issue as a high priority for the country, but it's being ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emprov Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 2. We can put out products that kick everyone's asses. We can't sell them competitively when, for instance, US plants have to meet emissions standards that foreign plants don't, when foreign countries impose punitive import duties on US goods so the US stuff isn't nearly as desirable (price an Ampeg SVT anywhere outside the US...it doesn't cost double because of shipping...) and the US does nothing like this at all. A level playing field would go a long way toward making US products competitive. We don't have quality problems per se, we have sale problems. Four words: Ford, General Motors and Chrysler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted February 12, 2008 Moderators Share Posted February 12, 2008 It is only "bad" if you have some hangups about trying to avoid the world economy. To me, listening to people complain about foreign products is equivalent to listening to people complain about rival sports teams. One world, one love. Borders, literally and figuratively, are falling everywhere.Is that why Putin is flexing his muscle and has Russian Bombers flying close to our fleet only to be chased off by our fighters? China isn't our "friend." This one love thing only works when all involved think exactly the same. If either one of these countries didn't have the ability to park a nuke over my family's head, I might agree with your analogy of rival sports teams. My personal opinion is that a global economy is different than a global village. I complain about foreign goods, because I'm tired of "Americans" making decisions to move production overseas, simply because it lines a few fat cats wallets on wall street and pads the 401k a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emprov Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 Is that why Putin is flexing his muscle and has Russian Bombers flying close to our fleet only to be chased off by our fighters? Ya, what's up with that? And, they're tightening oil shipments to Ukraine. Gotta say I'm not liking how things are beginning to unfold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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