Members Phantasm Posted July 30, 2008 Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 Let's say that you buy an instrument used from a large chain that uses pawnbroker's laws to buy/sell used instruments. Long story short, the instrument is stolen and the police come to your house to seize it along with your receipt. When you go to the store to inquire about your money, they tell you that the item cleared 30-day police hold and they are not liable. Let's say they tell you that you are now required to take issue with the police for your money (even though you bought the item from the chain store, not the police.) Anyone have any clue what they would do if hypothetically this situation happened to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members walkerci Posted July 30, 2008 Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 Let's say that you buy an instrument used from a large chain that uses pawnbroker's laws to buy/sell used instruments.Long story short, the instrument is stolen and the police come to your house to seize it along with your receipt.When you go to the store to inquire about your money, they tell you that the item cleared 30-day police hold and they are not liable. Let's say they tell you that you are now required to take issue with the police for your money (even though you bought the item from the chain store, not the police.)Anyone have any clue what they would do if hypothetically this situation happened to them? First, I'd file a lawsuit in small claims or civil court against them. Since they are a corporation, they MUST be represented by a lawyer. You don't have to be. This costs them big money (think $250 per hour and up) and it is far cheaper for them to do the right thing and refund the money. Second, I'd call a local newspaper and ask if they would do a story on how the store mistreated me and about my lawsuit. Three, I'd call the Better Business Bureau and lodge a complaint. Fourth, some states have a consumer protection bureau. I'd go see them and lodge a complaint. Now if all that didn't get the results.... I'd make a big sign saying "the store sold me stolen merchandise, then refused to refund my money" and attach it to my van and park it in front of the store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phantasm Posted July 30, 2008 Author Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 Those are definitely great suggestions that sound very useful... but my real question is, "can a chain store sell you stolen goods and then refuse to refund your money?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassman1956 Posted July 30, 2008 Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 Well, if they successfully can show they took effort to clear the item, by whatever legal description good or bad that this requires, how can you hold them liable? Hey, I'm on your side. I'm just saying... Where do you go from there? I think post #2 may be dead on. But, it still might not be enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bholder Posted July 30, 2008 Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 Well, if they successfully can show they took effort to clear the item, by whatever legal description good or bad that this requires, how can you hold them liable?Hey, I'm on your side. I'm just saying... Where do you go from there? I think post #2 may be dead on. But, it still might not be enough. I'm not sure what the law on it is, but I don't think it's at all reasonable for the store to merely be able to claim they took an effort. Morally, they ought to be legally obligated to guarantee that the item isn't stolen, and they ought to be legally required to refund the full purchase price if it wasn't. They can get insurance to cover any losses for that sort of thing, the end consumer can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Les_Izzmor Posted July 30, 2008 Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 "can a chain store sell you stolen goods and then refuse to refund your money?" First. Contact the police and see what the law is. You make it sound like they knew it was stolen, hoped it would clear, and then left you holding the bag. What if they didn't know it was stolen, and they followed all the rules and regulations set down by the local gov't. Your beef is not with the store, but with the regulation. There may be something in the store that states what their policy is on this. Check to see if they're required to post it somewhere, or even inform you of their policy when you purchase the item. I'm sure they don't make it a point to make it easily accesible, so you might be able to get them there. And. As was previously stated, get a lawyer. He may tell you you've got nothing, or he may get you your money back. (Minus legal fees). Also. If you know a lawyer, or have a cousin, or friend who's a lawyer, or know a lawyer in some round-about way. Ask them to type up a letter on company letter-head informing the store you plan to follow up, you never know, it could get you your money back without costing you a penny. It worked for me in a similiar situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members walkerci Posted July 30, 2008 Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 Well, if they successfully can show they took effort to clear the item, by whatever legal description good or bad that this requires, how can you hold them liable?Hey, I'm on your side. I'm just saying... Where do you go from there? I think post #2 may be dead on. But, it still might not be enough. "Clear the item?" The store is the victim of the seller of the stolen gear, but they cannot transfer that loss to a third party. They have to either find the seller and get their money back or eat the loss. You made a transaction in good faith with the store.They sold you damaged goods. Whether they knew they were selling damaged goods at the time is not relevant to the fact that they have to make you whole either by providing what they sold you or refunding the money. Businesses assume more risk than individuals.That's where profit margins, allowances for theft, bad debts, etc come into play. Store managers know that 95% of the people will accept their lame excuses and just go away. BTW, the upper management of large chains are very concerned about their image and will probably help you. Get the name and phone# of the district manager for the chain and keep going up the ladder until you get your refund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BeeTL Posted July 30, 2008 Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 Store managers know that 95% of the people will accept their lame excuses and just go away. BTW, the upper management of large chains are very concerned about their image and will probably help you. Get the name and phone# of the district manager for the chain and keep going up the ladder until you get your refund. I think this is key...you are very likely talking to a dumbass manager, move onward and upward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members walkerci Posted July 30, 2008 Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 First. Contact the police and see what the law is. You make it sound like they knew it was stolen, hoped it would clear, and then left you holding the bag. What if they didn't know it was stolen, and they followed all the rules and regulations set down by the local gov't. Your beef is not with the store, but with the regulation. There may be something in the store that states what their policy is on this. Check to see if they're required to post it somewhere, or even inform you of their policy when you purchase the item. I'm sure they don't make it a point to make it easily accesible, so you might be able to get them there. And. As was previously stated, get a lawyer. He may tell you you've got nothing, or he may get you your money back. (Minus legal fees). Also. If you know a lawyer, or have a cousin, or friend who's a lawyer, or know a lawyer in some round-about way. Ask them to type up a letter on company letter-head informing the store you plan to follow up, you never know, it could get you your money back without costing you a penny. It worked for me in a similiar situation. You don't need a lawyer to file a claim in small claims or civil court.The county or city courthouse will have the forms and instructions.Give them a call. Often you can get this stuff online. If you do get a lawyer and win in court, you can ask for and could be awarded legal fees in addition to the refund. OTOH, there is not much money in this for a lawyer. You will have a tough time finding one to take the case without a big upfront retainer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phantasm Posted July 30, 2008 Author Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 Right, in my hypothetical situation, I'm not saying that the store knew it was stolen goods. I'm asking if they can actually transfer that risk to the buyer and then the buyer has to get restitution from a third party (in this case, the police.) It's odd to say "you bought this from me, but now this third party is responsible." It seems like you should be able to buy items from a national chain without fear of them being stolen and therefore losing your money with the chain having no responsibility to make good on the transaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 30, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted July 30, 2008 Let's say that you buy an instrument used from a large chain that uses pawnbroker's laws to buy/sell used instruments.Long story short, the instrument is stolen and the police come to your house to seize it along with your receipt.When you go to the store to inquire about your money, they tell you that the item cleared 30-day police hold and they are not liable. Let's say they tell you that you are now required to take issue with the police for your money (even though you bought the item from the chain store, not the police.)Anyone have any clue what they would do if hypothetically this situation happened to them? Assuming it's Louisiana: http://www.ofi.state.la.us/lccl37.htm Pawnshops are required to hold things for 3 months, not 30 days (6 months for jewelry). So there's a problem in that detail if what you stated is what happened (hypothetically happened, of course;)). But that's about the only thing that you might have in your favor. As for getting your money back, good luck...get in line. You would have to recover from the pawnshop, who would have to recover from the thief. Pay your local constable a visit. Don't expect much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Wooj Posted July 30, 2008 Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 What if they didn't know it was stolen, and they followed all the rules and regulations set down by the local gov't. Your beef is not with the store, but with the regulation. Gaw-geez, Captain Benefit-of-The-Doubt! Don't you see he wants to lay down some smack-down?! I'm glad I'm not in Phantasm's position. I'd find the owner when he was walking in the parking, put a brick on the accelerator and steer in his direction hanging out the window and jumping off, drop kicking him at 65mph! :evil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phantasm Posted July 30, 2008 Author Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 Assuming it's Louisiana:http://www.ofi.state.la.us/lccl37.htmPawnshops are required to hold things for 3 months, not 30 days (6 months for jewelry). So there's a problem in that detail if what you stated is what happened (hypothetically happened, of course;)). But that's about the only thing that you might have in your favor.As for getting your money back, good luck...get in line. You would have to recover from the pawnshop, who would have to recover from the thief. Pay your local constable a visit. Don't expect much. Thanks for looking that up, I appreciate it. I still don't see what happens when the item is stolen and the pawnshop sells it to someone else, that's the catch. There doesn't seem to be a clear definition of who is at fault at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 30, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted July 30, 2008 Thanks for looking that up, I appreciate it. I still don't see what happens when the item is stolen and the pawnshop sells it to someone else, that's the catch. There doesn't seem to be a clear definition of who is at fault at that point. Well, being Louisiana, it depends. If you've got a cousin who's friendly with the sheriff, then the pawnshop is liable. If the pawnshop owner's second wife's friendly with the mayor's wife, then you're liable. If neither of you have any relations in local guv'mint, then it's up to whoever is bigger or meaner to decide....just as long as you don't inconvenience the local police with having to respond to an altercation. * and no, I'm actually not kidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 30, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted July 30, 2008 But seriously, you should either call a lawyer or go to the police to ask what options you have. Maybe you can take the store to small claims court. There's no way the police are responsible for giving you money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Perfessor Posted July 30, 2008 Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 Let's see if I have this right. The police are going to go through the trouble to find a musical instrument that was stolen by tracking it down through a pawnbroker, a chain store and a person that bought it. Not around here they wouldn't. First they'd have to check every pawnbroker and then find one willing to say they actually sold that particular bass and then talk to (insert blog) a responsible music store employee. What are the chances? Like winning the lottery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chunky-b Posted July 30, 2008 Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 Let's see if I have this right. The police are going to go through the trouble to find a musical instrument that was stolen by tracking it down through a pawnbroker, a chain store and a person that bought it. Not around here they wouldn't. First they'd have to check every pawnbroker and then find one willing to say they actually sold that particular bass and then talk to (insert blog) a responsible music store employee. What are the chances? Like winning the lottery? Sounds like the guy who had it stolen has a cousin's sister's aunt that works with the police for them to pursue this... Especially in New Orleans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassman1956 Posted July 30, 2008 Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 Did the cops give you some sort of receipt or written statement in exchange for what they took? And is there any wiyness to what went down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J. Posted July 30, 2008 Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 I'd be vocal about it. Writing the Better Business Bureau won't necessarily do any good, but it's still worth doing. Many businesses will avoid the bass writeup by doing the right thing for the customer. If this hypothetical situation went down, and the store still refused to make it right after all avenues were exhausted, I sure as heck would post the name of the place on the internet and everywhere else so people would know to avoid them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 30, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted July 30, 2008 Let's see if I have this right. The police are going to go through the trouble to find a musical instrument that was stolen by tracking it down through a pawnbroker, a chain store and a person that bought it. Not around here they wouldn't. First they'd have to check every pawnbroker and then find one willing to say they actually sold that particular bass and then talk to (insert blog) a responsible music store employee. What are the chances? Like winning the lottery? No not really. Per LA law, pawnshops must send a copy of every pawn transaction to the local police or sheriff's dept daily. Descriptions and serial numbers are on the transaction. So the cop shop has a record of everyone who sold to the pawnshop, and everyone who bought from it. It's a really simply matter to match the description and ser# of a reported stolen item. Finding the new owner is easy. Finding the person who stole it, usually not so easy. Am I saying it's free from fraud? Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BeeTL Posted July 30, 2008 Members Share Posted July 30, 2008 Right, in my hypothetical situation, I'm not saying that the store knew it was stolen goods. I'm asking if they can actually transfer that risk to the buyer and then the buyer has to get restitution from a third party (in this case, the police.) It's odd to say "you bought this from me, but now this third party is responsible."It seems like you should be able to buy items from a national chain without fear of them being stolen and therefore losing your money with the chain having no responsibility to make good on the transaction. This is true, so I wouldn't make things too complicated. As stated previously: 1. Don't stop with the store manager, keep moving up, and... 2. If you paid with a credit card, dispute the charge, and if that doesn't work... 3. File a clim in small claims court, go to the local news, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Renfield Posted July 31, 2008 Members Share Posted July 31, 2008 BTW, the upper management of large chains are very concerned about their image and will probably help you. Get the name and phone# of the district manager for the chain and keep going up the ladder until you get your refund. This is fantastic advice, and sure to get you fast results. They don't want a stain over something like this, it's too easy to just eat it as a theft of their own and write it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phantasm Posted July 31, 2008 Author Members Share Posted July 31, 2008 After researching this more, it does appear that once an item clears police hold if it is sold and is a stolen item the pawnbroker is no longer responsible. They are cleared from liability. This is from as far as I can tell. Sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted July 31, 2008 Moderators Share Posted July 31, 2008 Let's say that you buy an instrument used from a large chain that uses pawnbroker's laws to buy/sell used instruments.Long story short, the instrument is stolen and the police come to your house to seize it along with your receipt.When you go to the store to inquire about your money, they tell you that the item cleared 30-day police hold and they are not liable. Let's say they tell you that you are now required to take issue with the police for your money (even though you bought the item from the chain store, not the police.)Anyone have any clue what they would do if hypothetically this situation happened to them? Hypothetically, you're screwed. The shop met their legal requirements, and are not liable. The instrument is not yours. It belongs to the person it was stolen from. I imagine you could sue the person who stole it, but what are the chances of your recovering, even if you win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted July 31, 2008 Moderators Share Posted July 31, 2008 I'm not sure what the law on it is, but I don't think it's at all reasonable for the store to merely be able to claim they took an effort. Morally, they ought to be legally obligated to guarantee that the item isn't stolen, and they ought to be legally required to refund the full purchase price if it wasn't. They can get insurance to cover any losses for that sort of thing, the end consumer can't. Morals have nothing whatsoever to do with business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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