Moderators Kindness Posted April 26, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 26, 2009 I wonder how many of us really really understand it enough to be so vigorously against it.~0.01%In any case, as long as the perceived success here are capitalism and the perceived failures are socialism, the stigma stays. If socialism has some shining example of success in another country that'd help too, but it doesn't. Maybe there's a reason why/why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Mango Posted April 26, 2009 Members Share Posted April 26, 2009 ~0.01% In any case, as long as the perceived success here are capitalism and the perceived failures are socialism, the stigma stays. If socialism has some shining example of success in another country that'd help too, but it doesn't. Maybe there's a reason why/why not? Right perception is reality. What would a shining example look like? How would we see it and recognize it? It's hard to get at a real example and experience it. We live inside of somethingwe inherited. Much of the resistence to Socialism could be resisence to change. The question, though, was why so many Americans are against Socialism. I doubt it's really a resistence to Socialism and more an attachment to slogans/perceptions against Socialism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lonerstoenr Posted April 26, 2009 Members Share Posted April 26, 2009 I wonder how many of us really really understand it enough to be so vigorously against it. I think this truth can be applied to any number of political systems, religions, ideologies, etc that are prematurely judged, and viciously fought against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasper383 Posted April 26, 2009 Members Share Posted April 26, 2009 I do not understand quite why so many Americans are so afraid of socialism ? I'm a Norwegian which is a predominantly socialistic country, and we've proved that it works. Free healthcare and free schools. Downside is paying as much tax, but at least we see our money working for us.Norway, along with the other N European countries, has a tradition of having a responsive and efficient government. The US has no such tradition.Do you know exactly how much you are paying for "free" health care and "free" schools? My guess is probably not. How do you know your money is working as well as it could? I would argue that people individually make the best decisions with money, rather than send it to a government in order to satisfy some amorphous "public good". I also would argue that it is easier to run a national health care program when you only have 5 million people, and the vast majority of them belong to the same culture/genetic profile. The US has 300+ million people, and no two are the same. Norway also doesn't need to spend much on military, because they know if the crap hits the fan, the US will get involved on their behalf. As far as schooling, my guess is that you are weeded out early on, comparatively few go to college, and the rest go to training programs of some sort. The US education model is, basically, anything goes. For better and worse. But that is what our nation was founded on. Norway was not. Not better, just intrinsically different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted April 26, 2009 Author Members Share Posted April 26, 2009 Norway, along with the other N European countries, has a tradition of having a responsive and efficient government. The US has no such tradition. Do you know exactly how much you are paying for "free" health care and "free" schools? My guess is probably not. How do you know your money is working as well as it could? I would argue that people individually make the best decisions with money, rather than send it to a government in order to satisfy some amorphous "public good". I also would argue that it is easier to run a national health care program when you only have 5 million people, and the vast majority of them belong to the same culture/genetic profile. The US has 300+ million people, and no two are the same. Norway also doesn't need to spend much on military, because they know if the crap hits the fan, the US will get involved on their behalf. As far as schooling, my guess is that you are weeded out early on, comparatively few go to college, and the rest go to training programs of some sort. The US education model is, basically, anything goes. For better and worse. But that is what our nation was founded on. Norway was not. Not better, just intrinsically different. My feeling is that Socialism and Capitalism can both work well at a certain scale. Capitalism works better on a very large scale and Socialism operates best on a smaller scale. Capitalism principles "work" in a large society were the is a lot of anonymity. Socialism works better on a smaller scale but has failed on a larger scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted April 27, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 27, 2009 It's a racket all around; but the students aren't in on the take. Somebody has to be the mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Orph Posted April 27, 2009 Members Share Posted April 27, 2009 Norway, along with the other N European countries, has a tradition of having a responsive and efficient government. The US has no such tradition. Do you know exactly how much you are paying for "free" health care and "free" schools? My guess is probably not. How do you know your money is working as well as it could? I would argue that people individually make the best decisions with money, rather than send it to a government in order to satisfy some amorphous "public good". I also would argue that it is easier to run a national health care program when you only have 5 million people, and the vast majority of them belong to the same culture/genetic profile. The US has 300+ million people, and no two are the same. Norway also doesn't need to spend much on military, because they know if the crap hits the fan, the US will get involved on their behalf. As far as schooling, my guess is that you are weeded out early on, comparatively few go to college, and the rest go to training programs of some sort. The US education model is, basically, anything goes. For better and worse. But that is what our nation was founded on. Norway was not. Not better, just intrinsically different. You do bring up a couple of valid points here. No, we do not know _exactly_ how much we pay for free schools and healthcare. Not on a person-to-person basis at least. We do get to know how much goes to our municipality and how much goes to the state, though, and their respective budgets (the national budget and local budget) are released officially each year. So as a people we know how much money goes to schools, hospitals, culture, road maintenance and so on. And no doubt: It's by no means a perfect system, and it's not impressively effective either, but we do ensure that the weaker parts of our system has a fair chance to get a good education, and that they do get exactly the same level of healthcare as everyone else. In addition: Our education, and healthcare systems aren't run for profit. And we don't have to pay for healthinsurance (who also run these policies for profit). So on a person to person basis I'm guessing we pay less than those not benefiting from public healthcare. On average we pay a little under 20 000NOK every year pr. citizen (which would be a little under $3000US). That's a pretty rough estimate, though, simply dividing the budgeted amount earmarked for national healthcare by the number of people living in Norway, not considering any other factors. Norway doesn't spend a lot of money on military predominantly because, as you stated, we've only got 5 million citizens, plus, we're a fairly peaceful country. Regarding education: That's pretty far off target, actually. We've got 10 years of mandatory schooling, around 95% attend two or three more years (two years for those pursuing jobs as mechanics, carpenters and so on, three for those wanting to prepare for higher studies). We do have one of the highest concentrations of higher educated people in the world. To cap it off: I'm not saying we're better, that's not for me to decide. I'm not saying our system would work for anyone else either. I was just stating that socialism (or a socialdemocracy which is a more correct way of putting it) isn't something to be feared. The fact that most of the European countries work in pretty much the same manner as our country does confirms this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FreestyleIntruder Posted April 27, 2009 Members Share Posted April 27, 2009 [YOUTUBE]fCPvc0r_sIc[/YOUTUBE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brother Mango Posted April 27, 2009 Members Share Posted April 27, 2009 You do bring up a couple of valid points here.No, we do not know _exactly_ how much we pay for free schools and healthcare. Not on a person-to-person basis at least. We do get to know how much goes to our municipality and how much goes to the state, though, and their respective budgets (the national budget and local budget) are released officially each year. So as a people we know how much money goes to schools, hospitals, culture, road maintenance and so on. And no doubt: It's by no means a perfect system, and it's not impressively effective either, but we do ensure that the weaker parts of our system has a fair chance to get a good education, and that they do get exactly the same level of healthcare as everyone else. In addition: Our education, and healthcare systems aren't run for profit. And we don't have to pay for healthinsurance (who also run these policies for profit). So on a person to person basis I'm guessing we pay less than those not benefiting from public healthcare. On average we pay a little under 20 000NOK every year pr. citizen (which would be a little under $3000US). That's a pretty rough estimate, though, simply dividing the budgeted amount earmarked for national healthcare by the number of people living in Norway, not considering any other factors. Norway doesn't spend a lot of money on military predominantly because, as you stated, we've only got 5 million citizens, plus, we're a fairly peaceful country.Regarding education: That's pretty far off target, actually. We've got 10 years of mandatory schooling, around 95% attend two or three more years (two years for those pursuing jobs as mechanics, carpenters and so on, three for those wanting to prepare for higher studies). We do have one of the highest concentrations of higher educated people in the world.To cap it off: I'm not saying we're better, that's not for me to decide. I'm not saying our system would work for anyone else either. I was just stating that socialism (or a socialdemocracy which is a more correct way of putting it) isn't something to be feared. The fact that most of the European countries work in pretty much the same manner as our country does confirms this. Thanks for sharing. You underscore my doubt that many of us really understand Socialism. But you up the ante by pointing out that there's SocialDemocracy, something different from pure Socialism--as if pure Socialism can be found anywhere. And that's still different from the old USSR which failed for many many reasons and not just because of its version of Socialism. We don't even have pure Capitalism here. Might we actually have a different shade of SocialDemocracy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Orph Posted April 27, 2009 Members Share Posted April 27, 2009 Thanks for sharing. You underscore my doubt that many of us really understand Socialism. But you up the ante by pointing out that there's SocialDemocracy, something different from pure Socialism--as if pure Socialism can be found anywhere. And that's still different from the old USSR which failed for many many reasons and not just because of its version of Socialism. We don't even have pure Capitalism here. Might we actually have a different shade of SocialDemocracy? True socialism really only exist in places like Cuba (I might get arrested on this, but I'll post it anyway). True, Norway (and most of Europe, really) is a socialdemocracy. So is Sweden. The main differences between "our system" and "yours" is that the government is more proactive and involved with regards to the bigger companies, and they refuse to privatice institutions like hospitals and schools (not to say we don't have private hospitals and schools, - we do, but they really only exist to overlap what the government can't/won't control. They do recieve some government subsidies in many cases). The government is involved on the ownerside in all the big companies. For example: Norway does have a lot of oil (relative to our size), and we pull that oil to work for us as a nation instead of letting some company fat cat take the money for itself by creating a national oilcompany, - Statoil. It is partially privatized, but the State still owns a sizeable share in it to maintain control and ensure that the company adheres to a strict code of buisness ethics. If you can stand Michael Moore, I suggest taking a look at this youtube video. It IS a bit overstated, and it's not quite as easy as he may make it out to be (like conveniently excluding any mention of our ridiculously difficult-to-manage bureaucracy, waitinglines in hospitals (not when dealing with life-threatening or disabling diseases, though. I had to wait a year for an operation, which was a nuisance and sometimes quite painful, but not by any means disabling or life-threatening) and crappy weather), Michael Moore is famous for his one-sided journalism after all. Now, I'm using a lot of words I don't usually use here, so pardon any spellingerrors and such,- my main language isn't English after all. [YOUTUBE]k4L6-0WRfSA[/YOUTUBE] Please pardon me for getting involved like this, I really don't mean to, I just feel the need for exercising my arguingmuscles when reading some of the stuff stated in this thread I'm not necessarily stating that we are the end all and be all when it comes to quality of life either, as I'm sure most of you are enlightened enough to understand as well We are satisfied with our system because we are used to it, I'm not sure how "outsiders" would react to our way of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lonerstoenr Posted April 27, 2009 Members Share Posted April 27, 2009 That's excellent English, especially for a non-native speaker. I'm genuinely impressed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ender_rpm Posted April 27, 2009 Members Share Posted April 27, 2009 +1. There are some native speakers on here that are unable to express themselves as well as you. Thanks for bringing in a new view point too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dionysusolympus Posted April 27, 2009 Members Share Posted April 27, 2009 Curious, regarding Obama's recent crackdown on credit card companies, which of the credit card companies is his donor(s)? I just saw Maxxed Out and was just curious.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Orph Posted April 27, 2009 Members Share Posted April 27, 2009 +1. There are some native speakers on here that are unable to express themselves as well as you. Thanks for bringing in a new view point too. Well thank you ! It's hard for me to put this into perspective, really, since I mostly focus on the stuff I'm unsure about when talking or writing in English, not what I'm actually doing right Glad to see you caught the point of my post, I was hoping not to insult anyone, which is all to easy when discussing topics such as these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasper383 Posted April 27, 2009 Members Share Posted April 27, 2009 We don't even have pure Capitalism here. Might we actually have a different shade of SocialDemocracy? Yes, of course. Nowhere has a pure form of anything. The question is, what is the mix going to be? In the US, it may be something like 70/30 capitalist/socialist. The Scandinavian countries may be 60/40. North Korea, who knows--10/90 ? My problem with socializing more and more programs in the US is that it always deals with other people's money, and ownership is nebulous. How careful are you with the things you have paid for yourself, and have paid for with your own money? How careful are you if you have no idea who owns it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted April 27, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 27, 2009 You do bring up a couple of valid points here.No, we do not know _exactly_ how much we pay for free schools and healthcare. Not on a person-to-person basis at least. We do get to know how much goes to our municipality and how much goes to the state, though, and their respective budgets (the national budget and local budget) are released officially each year. So as a people we know how much money goes to schools, hospitals, culture, road maintenance and so on. And no doubt: It's by no means a perfect system, and it's not impressively effective either, but we do ensure that the weaker parts of our system has a fair chance to get a good education, and that they do get exactly the same level of healthcare as everyone else. In addition: Our education, and healthcare systems aren't run for profit. And we don't have to pay for healthinsurance (who also run these policies for profit). So on a person to person basis I'm guessing we pay less than those not benefiting from public healthcare. On average we pay a little under 20 000NOK every year pr. citizen (which would be a little under $3000US). That's a pretty rough estimate, though, simply dividing the budgeted amount earmarked for national healthcare by the number of people living in Norway, not considering any other factors. Norway doesn't spend a lot of money on military predominantly because, as you stated, we've only got 5 million citizens, plus, we're a fairly peaceful country.Regarding education: That's pretty far off target, actually. We've got 10 years of mandatory schooling, around 95% attend two or three more years (two years for those pursuing jobs as mechanics, carpenters and so on, three for those wanting to prepare for higher studies). We do have one of the highest concentrations of higher educated people in the world.To cap it off: I'm not saying we're better, that's not for me to decide. I'm not saying our system would work for anyone else either. I was just stating that socialism (or a socialdemocracy which is a more correct way of putting it) isn't something to be feared. The fact that most of the European countries work in pretty much the same manner as our country does confirms this. Norway is also known for having the best record in the world for women's rights and education. That's not going to score you a lot of points around here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Orph Posted April 27, 2009 Members Share Posted April 27, 2009 Norway is also known for having the best record in the world for women's rights and education. That's not going to score you a lot of points around here! Well, as long as I broadcast my explicit opinion that women are only good for making babies, dinner and doing the dishes I should be fine, right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zachoff Posted April 27, 2009 Members Share Posted April 27, 2009 Well, as long as I broadcast my explicit opinion that women are only good for making babies, dinner and doing the dishes I should be fine, right ? You forgot cleaning the house. :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bnyswonger Posted April 27, 2009 Members Share Posted April 27, 2009 Well, as long as I broadcast my explicit opinion that women are only good for making babies, dinner and doing the dishes I should be fine, right ? You and your excellent English (and apparently now good sense of humor) are a most welcome addition to the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted April 27, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 27, 2009 You forgot cleaning the house. :poke: Right. Include that, and you'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members s4001 Posted April 27, 2009 Members Share Posted April 27, 2009 True socialism ...Unfortunately, our country is a long way from having such a system that could hope to work. The foxes are firmly entrenched in the henhouse right now. Hell, LA couldn't even make a water treatment plant without swindling half a billion dollars and then coming back for another billion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cuffdc Posted April 27, 2009 Members Share Posted April 27, 2009 Liberals created a perfect system. Keep jacking up the price of college costs, then make people pay interest on the loans from the GOVERNMENT. What a deal. Here's a idea, keep the costs down by keeping salaries and benefits in line with the private sector. Someone apparently has no idea of the comparative salaries between colleges/universities and the private sector... Here's a hint: private sector > colleges/universities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted April 27, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted April 27, 2009 Someone apparently has no idea of the comparative salaries between colleges/universities and the private sector...Here's a hint:private sector > colleges/universities So you're saying that private universities are paying more than state universities to the equivalent employees? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted April 27, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 27, 2009 So you're saying that private universities are paying more than state universities to the equivalent employees? No, he's saying what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted April 28, 2009 Moderators Share Posted April 28, 2009 Now, I'm using a lot of words I don't usually use here, so pardon any spellingerrors and such,- my main language isn't English after all.You don't need to apologize for your writing at all. Your English is much better than my Norwegian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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