Sim vs Amp: Can you tell the difference?

[ggm1960]

Nice stuff Dang, I need to win a lottery or somefink and buy a real amp GaJ

 

A "real" amp is the amp that you think sounds the best, try them all out and don't be persuaded by peers, salesmen or those that think they have some sort of special tone gene.

 

Furthermore, if you can't take a minimum $500 amp (that includes tube or SS) and dial in a reasonably good sound then you should just put you guitar away.

[Lee Flier]

A "real" amp is the amp that you think sounds the best, try them all out and don't be persuaded by peers, salesmen or those that think they have some sort of special tone gene .

Errrhhh.... seems to me that GaJ made his statement after having heard some clips from a "real amp" and declaring it really sounded great to him.

[ggm1960]

Errrhhh.... seems to me that GaJ made his statement after having heard some clips from a "real amp" and declaring it really sounded great to him.

 

It was never stated what amp it was. I heard what is most likely a Strat but could have almost been a solid body Rickenbacker with a touch of reverb. How's it sound with a Les Paul?

 

Obviously GaJ can buy whatever amp he wishes but my point is, and always will be, that to get the sound that any of us is after we need to go try out the amps we are considering with the guitar(s) we play to make a decision.

[elbow]

.... to get the sound that any of us is after we need to go try out the amps we are considering with the guitar(s) we play to make a decision.

 

 

+1.. can you even get past the fingernails on the chalkboard sound created from the most dissonent POS that has passed through the greasy hands of at least 3 hundred 14 year old boys at GC? Nothing can fix that.

[wades_keys]

A "real" amp is the amp that you think sounds the best, try them all out and don't be persuaded by peers, salesmen or those that think they have some sort of special tone gene .

 

Exactly - just ask Leslie West (solid state Sunn amps).

[Electric Catfish]

Exactly - just ask Leslie West (solid state Sunn amps).

Sunn made some S.S. amps, but I'm pretty sure the Coliseum PA head that West was using was tube.

As of now, he's using Marshalls (JMP in the studio, JCM900 live), according to some info I just dug up trying to find out more about the Coliseum. I found this picture, though, from somebody who was working on one, apparently;

[Lee Flier]

Obviously GaJ can buy whatever amp he wishes but my point is, and always will be, that to get the sound that any of us is after we need to go try out the amps we are considering with the guitar(s) we play to make a decision.

Of course. I just don't think that GaJ was prompted by a salesperson or anybody else (as you seemed to be implying) to decide that he liked the sound of the amp on the clip. And I doubt that if he were to save up the money for a really nice amp, he'd decide to buy that one without having tried it first. He was just saying he liked the clip and maybe it will inspire him to check out some great amps. Although sometimes with boutique amps you HAVE to order them sight unseen, in which case you have ample opportunity to try it out and can return it if you don't like it.

[ggm1960]

This is probably the reason I've never been to the amp forum.

 

I'm going to have to learn to leave the amp subject alone.

 

I always approach amps from a technical standpoint, I've seen the inside of a lot of them and overall one is filled with the same freaking components as the next one and if I don't like the components that are in it, I can go to MCM and get different ones to stuff in it.

Ok, Ok, the transformers are a little harder to get a hold of but I can find those with a little more searching.

 

Guitars are finely crafted pieces of wood with awesome paint jobs, fingerboards and fretwork; I could chat about the mystique, mojo and beauty of them all day.

 

Amps, on the other hand, are boxes filled with capacitors, resistors, pots, diodes, transformers and audio power devices; I just can't feel much attachment to them beyond their ability to replicate the sound of my guitar at an adequate volume.

 

I'll never be able to discuss them on a non-technical level which means: I'll never be able to take the tube/SS amp debate seriously.

 

With that I'll bow out of the amp debate.

[Lee Flier]

 

Guitars are finely crafted pieces of wood with awesome paint jobs, fingerboards and fretwork; I could chat about the mystique, mojo and beauty of them all day. Amps, on the other hand, are boxes filled with capacitors, resistors, pots, diodes, transformers and audio power devices; I just can't feel much attachment to them beyond their ability to replicate the sound of my guitar at an adequate volume.

 

 

Ahhh. I guess we do diverge there... I think the beauty and mojo and craftsmanship of amps is in their design. It's not as visible or as tactile, but I sure can hear it, and FEEL it (in the way it responds to my playing) when I hit on an amp that really tingles my spine. And my main axe (or any of my guitars for that matter) sounds very very different through different amps. I can't imagine that yours doesn't, unless you use lots of effects that mask the actual amp sound.

[GreenAsJade]

+1.

 

I reckon if you knew what a tube was, how it works, you would feel the mystique. You didn't even mention it in your list of components.

 

Only a person brought up on a sim could think than an amp just replicates the sound of a guitar. And no-one "just replicates" the sound of their guitar anyhow. That's _why_ you have a sim or a tube amp. In fact, the sound of just a guitar is damn plain. Try plugging one into the PA, no effects, and play it.

 

GaJ

[Electric Catfish]

Ahhh. I guess we do diverge there... I think the beauty and mojo and craftsmanship of amps is in their design. It's not as visible or as tactile, but I sure can hear it, and FEEL it (in the way it responds to my playing) when I hit on an amp that really tingles my spine. And my main axe (or any of my guitars for that matter) sounds very very different through different amps. I can't imagine that yours doesn't, unless you use lots of effects that mask the actual amp sound.

There are "technical" differences between tube and solid state amps, too, which kind of renders his argument bizarre, to say the least.

But subjectively, there's no contest at all.

[ggm1960]

+1. I reckon if you knew what a tube was, how it works, you would feel the mystique. You didn't even mention it in your list of components. Only a person brought up on a sim could think than an amp just replicates the sound of a guitar. And no-one "just replicates" the sound of their guitar anyhow. That's _why_ you have a sim or a tube amp. In fact, the sound of just a guitar is damn plain. Try plugging one into the PA, no effects, and play it. GaJ

 

:soapbox: There's little doubt I was playing through tube amps long before you were born and I still have two of them, have you read any of this???

Alex Trebek, "An audio power device", Contestant, "What is a tube". Beep Beep Beep "yes!"

[GreenAsJade]

It would be interesting to find out if you were indeed playing tube amps before I was born, 'cause I'm an old geezer.

 

But that aside, I'm not sure what aspect you think I haven't read.

 

You said that there's mystique about guitars - carved wood etc etc - but none in amps - cicuits etc.

 

I disagreed - I find tubes very mysterious, and I'm an electronic engineer.

They have behaviour that isn't amenable to simple equations and easy simulation. They are quirky and individual, due to their construction etc.

This brings with it mystique. Along with that, many guitar greats use them and get an awesome sound. It's mysterious how they get that sound, and the amp is part of it (so are their fingers, their guitar etc)

 

You also said that an amp just replicates your guitar's sound at a louder volume. This is just plain wrong. It modifies your guitar's sound.

 

*shrug* you're all upset, I'm not It's an interesting topic, I'm not sure why you need to smash your computer while we discuss it.

 

Cheers,

 

GaJ

 

Alex Trebek, "Some wood with metal strings attached", Contestant, "What is an electric guitar". Beep Beep Beep "yes!"

[cooterbrown]

Guitars are finely crafted pieces of wood with awesome paint jobs, fingerboards and fretwork; I could chat about the mystique, mojo and beauty of them all day. Amps, on the other hand, are boxes filled with capacitors, resistors, pots, diodes, transformers and audio power devices; I just can't feel much attachment to them beyond their ability to replicate the sound of my guitar at an adequate volume.

 

I am the total opposite.

 

If a guitar plays good...feels good in my hands...then that's good enough for me. Beyond that i don't have any sentimental attachments to my guitars. I keep a bottle of Honda blue pearl touch up paint when my Ibanez get chipped around the edges, and don'tfret when my strat gets yet another temperature-change-induced paint split.

I have been tempted to go Townshend on them more than a few times, but settled for dropping them to the floor and kicking them around, a bit.

 

The amplifier, on the other hand... that's where the magic comes in.

When I played in my defunct rock band, me and the other guitarist both had rather expensive amps(him:Bogner Ecstacy, me:Rivera M100).

IMO, they were worth every penny...crazy transient feedback mojo flying across the stage, the dynamic control one has over the tubes (play lightly for a little grit, spank that monkey for creamy power tube overdrive...did I mention I like to make my subpoints parenthetically?)

 

My Rivera or my little Peavey Classic 30 (modded with JJ EL84's and a Vintage 30 speaker) make me feel like I'm basking in sunshine...even on a dimly lit stage.

[Electric Catfish]

I am the total opposite. If a guitar plays good...feels good in my hands...then that's good enough for me. Beyond that i don't have any sentimental attachments to my guitars. I keep a bottle of Honda blue pearl touch up paint when my Ibanez get chipped around the edges, and don'tfret when my strat gets yet another temperature-change-induced paint split. I have been tempted to go Townshend on them more than a few times, but settled for dropping them to the floor and kicking them around, a bit. The amplifier, on the other hand... that's where the magic comes in. When I played in my defunct rock band, me and the other guitarist both had rather expensive amps(him:Bogner Ecstacy, me:Rivera M100). IMO, they were worth every penny...crazy transient feedback mojo flying across the stage, the dynamic control one has over the tubes (play lightly for a little grit, spank that monkey for creamy power tube overdrive...did I mention I like to make my subpoints parenthetically? ) My Rivera or my little Peavey Classic 30 (modded with JJ EL84's and a Vintage 30 speaker) make me feel like I'm basking in sunshine...even on a dimly lit stage.

Yeah, but you have to admit, it's a pain in the ass changing tubes every 45 minutes. I heard that that's why 45 minute sets became standard back in the old days. They had to change their tubes, so they took a break.

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, but you have to admit, it's a pain in the ass changing tubes every 45 minutes. I heard that that's why 45 minute sets became standard back in the old days. They had to change their tubes, so they took a break.

[Electric Catfish]

The germanium transistors they replaced them with weren't much better.

[Electric Catfish]

Lee, I got mixed up on which part of ggm's post you were responding to a minute ago. I was thinking "tube/ss", rather than "amp/sim" (which is what the thread is about, though it got a little derailed). I'm referring to post 111.

[ggm1960]

 

sounds very very different through different amps. I can't imagine that yours doesn't, unless you use lots of effects that mask the actual amp sound.

 

 

It would probably be easier to list the guitar recording approaches I haven't tried.

 

I've recorded dozens of my original tunes and at various times have mic'd my old Gibson Skylark class A tube amp, Twin Reverb class AB, Tech 21 TM60 MOSFET, Marshall AVT50 valvestate, Digitech RP2000 modeler/effects, plain 'ole bone dry into an ART DPS II preamp, or any combination of the aforementioned while at times using numerous analog and/or digital effects units.

 

At this point (except for my most recent couple of recordings) I couldn't even begin to figure out what combination of sources I'd used on any particular song.

 

The only thing that stays consistent is my playing, for better or for worse, it always sounds like me.

 

I don't hate tube amps, I just don't care about them anymore. I just prefer to use my Tech 21 for gigs along with the Digitech pedal. I like the sound and it's more convenient, practical, lighter, reliable and consistent.

 

I can't argue the tube amp "X factor", I don't care too and just because it doesn't exist for me doesn't mean it's not a valid.........thing.

[ggm1960]

It would be interesting to find out if you were indeed playing tube amps before I was born, 'cause I'm an old geezer.

 

 

I was under the impression you were quite a bit younger but for the record, I'm 47.

[elbow]

........ I just prefer to use my Tech 21 for gigs along with the Digitech pedal. I like the sound and it's more convenient, practical, lighter, reliable and consistent......

If you have a rig that you are 100% satisfied with, you are probably doing better than most others. I congratulate you.

You should play what inspires you... and that includes the guitar, amp, effects, strings, whatever. That's what it's all about.

I, for one, am all about lighter and smaller as long as I don't lose the sound that inspires my best playing. I would love to one day walk in with one of those things the size of a pack of cigs and plug into a board and say, "I'm done."

I do occasionally try out new gear, and I have to say that the SS stuff I've played recently is getting better and better.... and I can see myself converting if the emulation keeps improving the way it has. My back will thank me for it.

[wades_keys]

The POD debate reminds me of folks that will slam a keyboard based solely on it's presets.

 

You've gotta go deep with a POD to get good tones from it - you can NOT judge the capability of that unit by it's presets, anymore than a keyboard should be judged by it's presets.

 

They're not perfect, but you do have to spend a little time with the unit and get to know the amp models and how the tone controls react for each model - they are not your stock passive tone controls, the functionality changes from one model to the next - sometimes acting as passive tone controls, other times acting as active eq.

[Lee Flier]

The POD debate reminds me of folks that will slam a keyboard based solely on it's presets. You've gotta go deep with a POD to get good tones from it - you can NOT judge the capability of that unit by it's presets, anymore than a keyboard should be judged by it's presets.

Sure, but I've "gone deep" with it - I've owned one for my studio since they were first released. I've also heard lots of other folks play with them who are excellent, experienced player and who've "gone even deeper" than I have, and it still just doesn't float my boat.

If other people are happy with 'em, more power to them. It just doesn't inspire me.

[Deeprig9]

But can we agree that if you don't have alot of money to spend on the really pricey tube stuff, if you are a teenager or college student, or hell, most musicians, or you need 20 different amp sounds for a particular project and don't have a huge studio budget, a POD is a great replacement, not the same thing, but pretty damn good, especially for the money?

[Lee Flier]

 

But can we agree that if you don't have alot of money to spend on the really pricey tube stuff, if you are a teenager or college student, or hell, most musicians, or you need 20 different amp sounds for a particular project and don't have a huge studio budget, a POD is a great replacement, not the same thing, but pretty damn good, especially for the money?

 

 

Sure. Specially if you're in an apartment or dorm, they're great. I use a POD for working up arrangements and doing scratch tracks at 2 in the morning. Or bedroom practice.

 

There are also some pretty inexpensive and nice tube combos out there these days. You don't have to go "boutique" to get some great tube sounds. It's a great era for gearheads!