Sim vs Amp: Can you tell the difference?

[Lurko]

Nailed it.

[Lurko]

"C'mon and get with Maurice!" Classic. I like that song a lot.

[ggm1960]

I wonder why all the modellers don't just invent something like that and put it at the end of their signal chain? I bet it would sell more modellers.

 

 

My aging Digitech RP2000 had an EQ section and I'd be surprised if most other modelers over $100 didn't have that as well.

 

So often people think they need this or that and don't realize the tools are already available in the gear you already have.

 

I could also point out that most analog and digital mixers have EQ sections and furthermore if you're recording, most respectable DAWs have several different EQ plug-ins including parametric.

[GreenAsJade]

As I said "I _could_ mess with the EQ on every patch, and see if I can get the same effect, or I could just plug this filter in that does the job with zero hassle".

 

Cheers,

 

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

Soooo... while da bikie was busy snarling at me in the abuse thread, I was making a couple of quick recordings, which are at

 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=817915

 

It's basically a straight GT-8 patch with and without this thing in the loop.

 

I don't think there's any mystery (or snake oil) here: the box is a simple filter. And it doesn't turn a GT-8 into a tube amp, nor a crap player into a good one.

 

It just makes it easy to apply a specific useful filter to all your distortion patches. If that's what you want. You know YMMV. Whatever. Thought it might be interesting, please don't hit me. etc etc. I don't care if you use it. I don't care if you do. Bring on the smartarses who say they like the unfiltered versions better .... It works for me. OK?

 

Rock on.

 

GaJ

[ggm1960]

 

Soooo... while da bikie was busy snarling at me in the abuse thread, I was making a couple of quick recordings, which are at http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=817915 It's basically a straight GT-8 patch with and without this thing in the loop. It works for me. OK? Rock on. GaJ

 

 

For starters, mp3 compression, as well as reducing overall dynamics, rolls off a lot of the high end.

 

What I'm hearing though is filtering off some of the harmonics that are generated by adding distortion in the first place. You could get the same results by reducing the distortion level at the source.

 

Sooo... you're turning your guitar signal into a square wave with distortion and then you use the "magic box" to remove some of the harmonics generated by adding so much distortion in the first place.

 

I guess if that works for you that's fine but frankly I don't see the point.

[sjepstein]

Here's a poll for all the self-proclaimed badasses who think they can tell the difference. Here's two songs. Both songs suck. It's my band. I'm not interested in feedback or opinions. Concentrate on the guitar. Which one is: All Sim? Which one is All Amp-SM57 ? www.myspace.com/thestandard8 "Edge of the Night" www.myspace.com/thestandard8 "Prove Yourself" One is all line-6 pod. One is all amp. Let the games begin.

Well, you didn't say what kind of amp. Are you talking about an all solid-state combo? Because "The Edge of the Night" could be a real solid-state amp. But it doesn't have any real "tube" feel, whereas "Prove Yourself" really does seem to. But using a multifx with a tube, like the Zoom G7 or G9, going direct in, against a live solid-state combo, might have been a good trick...

Scott

[sjepstein]

It is if you're somebody like me who doesn't use very many effects, if any. I quite often go straight into the amp, and any effects I do use are definitely not going to bury the amp's characteristics very much. But then, I've always held that certain amps and effects are easier to model than others, such as hi gain amps. People who like that sort of sound are going to be happier with sims. However, sims don't work at all for my particular style, and the kinds of amps I use (Fender, Ampeg, Vox) don't model very well.

 

 

I actually get a few pretty serviceable Vox sounds out of my Zoom G7...

 

Scott

[S.L.B.]

I don't think that was his point. The point was that if you compare a POD to an amp that isn't all that great, and you have a bunch of digital effects going through the amp, then you're not going to hear much of a difference. But that isn't what people are talking about when they say a POD doesn't sound as good as a tube amp, or say they can hear the difference easily. They're comparing it to much better amps, and without so many effects.

Thanks Lee That was my point. If I had an Ibanez Guitar or similar into a Laney amp into a Crate 4x12 I would opt for the POD every single time because one does not have a clear tone advantage in my opinion. On the other hand a Mesa Mark IIB or Blackface Fender Super and the POD won't even hold a candle to it. It doesn't breath or respond the same, doesn't break up the same and doesn't sustain the same. I'm sorry that people want $300.00 gear to sound like multi thousand dollar gear but it just doesn't. Their is a reason why It is expensive to by good gear just like there is a reason a Mercedes is expensive. Is a modeling preamp passable or even decent.....yes. But passable isn't what everyone is looking for. Some music it will work better with then others.

And to the original poster I guess if you are going to read the first half of my post as being a smart ass you should read the whole thing that way.

And actually I did read your post as saying that a Laney Amp into a Crate Cab is supposed to be a good example of Great tube tone and cost 1000's of dollars.

So a Laney through a Crate cab is supposed to represent good tube tone or cost thousands of dollars......? I liked both songs btw, but the tones were meh for the types of tones I would be looking for.

[strathound]

As an aside, I'm actually contemplating playing a blues gig with my Tonelab LE this weekend. It will be a little experiment. I'm having difficulty, at low volumes, getting that greasy tone that Kid Ramos and Hollywood Fats get using their low watt vintage gear and a reverb tank. So I'm going to try ... try ... to use the LE to add the smallest smidge of distortion. I'm actually setting the gain on 0.1 in some cases. But just activating the circuitry begins the process.

This is severely frowned upon in our blues community here in Dallas. It's the equivalent of heresy. Luckily, I doubt any of the blues police will be at this gig.

MS

[Deeprig9]

As an aside, I'm actually contemplating playing a blues gig with my Tonelab LE this weekend. It will be a little experiment. I'm having difficulty, at low volumes, getting that greasy tone that Kid Ramos and Hollywood Fats get using their low watt vintage gear and a reverb tank. So I'm going to try ... try ... to use the LE to add the smallest smidge of distortion. I'm actually setting the gain on 0.1 in some cases. But just activating the circuitry begins the process. This is severely frowned upon in our blues community here in Dallas. It's the equivalent of heresy. Luckily, I doubt any of the blues police will be at this gig. MS

How did that work out? Did you do it? Did the blues police set up a sting operation after seeing your post?

SLB.... sorry for my tone, thanks for the comments.

[souldonor]

that was a good test I feel like I can tell. I own a line6 and it sounds ok at times, but it doesn't do it great all the time. It doesn't react like my other amps do. But sometimes I question my ear. I was glad to pass. thanks for a cool test. I like your stuff too.

[wheresgrant3]

Dig both songs. Both have a 70's era punk/new wave style. Retro and cool at the same time!

[paintbox]

Songs certainly didn't "suck". I guessed right (before looking at the answer) though the deck did seems a bit stacked against "Edge of the Night's" fx-heavy sound. But I disagree with those that say using a ton of fx destroys the benefits/qualities of using a tube amp. Assuming maybe you aren't using all-digital cheap junk fx.

Anyway the sound I like (clean Fender) I have yet to find a good emulation of and I've tried a lot of things. But I got decent sounds out of a POD for effected, high-gain Mesa type sounds. In the end if I wanted 20 amps at my disposal at all times I'd go digital for the convenience even if they don't sound 100% or even 80% accurate. The alternative is what- a garage full of amps? But I don't, I just want one or two and that's easy enough to manage. So I buy real versions of a couple, and if I feel a certain solo needs a '72 Dumblebobble or whatever then oh well, I 'm out of luck-

[[OO==V==OO] GTO]

I guessed it right !

I based myguess from the dryer tone on the intro on Prove Yourself

Lucky Guess !

[wades_keys]

On that note, I'll say that I tried out a Roland Cube not too long ago and played around on the JC setting and it just sounded like a Marshall with a boss chorus pedal. You'd think the guys and gals at Roland would get a sim of their own amp right. The rest of them sounded incredible though, especially the mesa stuff.

 

No, they want you to buy the real deal, and realize that the JC120 is the easiest amp in the world to clone, you just have to get the chorus circuit right.

 

They tanked it on purpose, to avoid cutting sales of the real deal down to zero.

[wades_keys]

Yeah, it's a hard sound to describe - has been called "mosquitos unrelated to the note". Very distinctive though. Check out Hadley's Harmonic Converger reviews in the review (!) section, which will also point you to Hadley's page. There are endless descriptions and debates about this "modeller sound".

 

thats the "Fizz" issue related specifically to the Pod XT.

 

It's high order harmonics you are hearing - digital aliasing.

[wades_keys]

Interesting. A Pod which emulates "good" amps is undifferentiatable (yes, that's a word) from a cheap CL throwtogether rig as long as you have some delay and a touch of chorus and reverb.... And I think we've also established there is no analog internet anymore... So.... where does that leave us?

 

Pretty much nowhere.

 

Tube fanatics aren't generally playing your setup.

 

You want good tube tone with gain - leave the Laney and Crate in the junkpile and get a Plexi or Super Lead.

 

Ain't a sim on the planet that can breathe like those bad boys.

[Bryer M.]

To me edge of night sounds more synthish, so i'm gonna just guess that it's sim. I really don't know for sure

[Bryer M.]

Hey, can anyone tell me how to write a forum or start a thread??? I would really like to know because i've been trying to figure out how for a few days and I'm getting frusterated 'cause i can't figure it out!!!

[GreenAsJade]

Click on "Backstage with the Band" link at the top of this page.

 

Click on the "forum tools" pull-down menu, which is in the top right just below the list of pages.

 

Select "start new thread".

 

Hit us with your new info/question...

 

GaJ

[Bryer M.]

:thu:Thnx a bunch.

[MrKnobs]

We had one of these over in OJ a while back. Guy posted some fairly decent playing, but the comparison was between some {censored} sounding solid state clean tone and a POD.

 

I had to concede he was right, I couldn't tell which was which - nor did I care.

 

It's definitely possible to make an amp sound like a POD, he proved that.

 

What the modelers seem to have trouble with is the vintage class A edge of breakup type tones - LIKE THESE. And of course this is more obvious while you're playing the thing from its touch response. It's a fairer contest when you compare the POD (or whatever) tone vs the MIKED amp sound, which sounds a lot less like the AMP sounded in the room while you were playing it.

 

Terry D.

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, exactly what he said. ^^^^^

[GreenAsJade]

What the modelers seem to have trouble with is the vintage class A edge of breakup type tones - LIKE THESE .

Nice stuff

Dang, I need to win a lottery or somefink and buy a real amp

GaJ