Sim vs Amp: Can you tell the difference?

[cooterbrown]

 

It is if you're somebody like me who doesn't use very many effects, if any. I quite often go straight into the amp, and any effects I do use are definitely not going to bury the amp's characteristics very much.

 

 

That's the same philosophy I used when I chose my effects.

I don't want my amp to sound like something else, I want it to sound like my amp with a little something added to it.

[Lee Flier]

That's the same philosophy I used when I chose my effects. I don't my amp to sound like something else, I want it to sound like my amp with a little something added to it.

 

 

Exactly. Whereas some people, it almost doesn't matter what amp they use because the effects ARE their tone.

[Electric Catfish]

That's not really an issue. Analog vs. digital is more noticable the further up the chain you go. If for instance you record and mix analog but the end result is digitally mastered, it will still sound a lot different than a digital recording digitally mastered. Likewise, if your sound source (e.g. amp) is analog it's going to sound different than if it's digital, even if the end result is digital. In general, the closer to the source you are, the more it will affect the sound, unless of course you manage to totally screw things up in mastering. For the same reason, it's a bogus argument when people say "Why worry about recording quality when it's all just going to end up as an MP3 and people won't know the difference?" They absolutely will know the difference - a great recording properly encoded to MP3 is still going to sound miles better than a crappy recording encoded to MP3. Just like a great quality recording used to sound better than a crappy one even when most people were hearing records over crappy AM radios.

I agree completely, except it's impossible to do a legitimate double blind test, when the basic argument is essentially analog/digital, whenever both examples are ultimately digital. It may not matter as much as other factors, but it's still an unintended variable that isn't being accounted for.

[GreenAsJade]

For the same reason, it's a bogus argument when people say "Why worry about recording quality when it's all just going to end up as an MP3 and people won't know the difference?" They absolutely will know the difference - a great recording properly encoded to MP3 is still going to sound miles better than a crappy recording encoded to MP3. Just like a great quality recording used to sound better than a crappy one even when most people were hearing records over crappy AM radios.

 

 

Sure, there's a "variable that isn't accounted for", but it doesn't make the test less legitimate, necessarily. It depends on the quality of the sample that we have to listen to.

 

The basic argument is _not_ "analogue vs digital". As Lee said _everything_ we hear these days, apart from live, is digital. The basic argument is tube-generated-tone vs simulated-tube-generated tone.

 

GaJ

[Deeprig9]

That's right. And so far, according to the poll, it's 50/50.

[Deeprig9]

I changed my mind. I'm working late tommorrow. I will annouce the truth in 1 hour. Get your hot licks in now. Stake your claim. Buy your lotto tickets. Tick Tock.

[GreenAsJade]

That's right. And so far, according to the poll, it's 50/50.

 

 

Well Catfish could use that to "prove" his claim that it's all digital, so you can't tell.

 

Sim enthusiastc could use that to "prove" that tubes can successfully be emulated in a sim.

 

Cynics could observe that little about the music we had to choose from had anything to do with tube-driven tone music , so it was an irrelevant test.

 

GaJ

[Deeprig9]

Irrelevancy is subjective. These are songs. If you break it down to one guitar part played identically and AB'd through pod and real amp, then you could get into how the mic isn't on axis, or isn't enough off axis, or how there's no second room mic, or how the playing just isn't good, or this or that or the other thing... the point is here is two songs, one with all sims and one with all amps miced, can you tell the difference, it's simple, and practical, because in the world of making music, you are in the context of drums, bass, lyrics, keyboards, hook, melody, harmony, effects, and mastering, and digital compression for distribution, so if you can't tell the difference, then that's something that's worthy of note, or "noteworthy" as it were.

[GreenAsJade]

Um? I guess there's "noteworthy" and then there's "noteworthy".

 

Why is it worthy of note that you can't tell whether something used an Amp when any possible noticeable effect of using an amp has been washed out by effects etc?

 

Let's say it's "Prove" that is the Amp. I would have though it would be noteworthy if you played us a version of the _same song_ with the Pod and we couldn't tell the difference. Not by comparing it to some song where a metaly sort of compressed distorted sound that can just as easily be made by a Pod or an Amp.

 

GaJ

[Deeprig9]

Um? I guess there's "noteworthy" and then there's "noteworthy". Why is it worthy of note that you can't tell whether something used an Amp when any possible noticeable effect of using an amp has been washed out by effects etc? Let's say it's "Prove" that is the Amp. I would have though it would be noteworthy if you played us a version of the _same song_ with the Pod and we couldn't tell the difference. Not by comparing it to some song where a metaly sort of compressed distorted sound that can just as easily be made by a Pod or an Amp. GaJ

 

 

So what you are saying, is that unless it's a raw amp track vs a raw pod track, you can't tell the difference?

 

What I'm saying is that if the music you are playing uses effects and is mixed with other instruments, then it doesn't matter if it's a sim or an amp. In that case, who cares! That's most music these days! Is there anything in the actual playing that you can hear is being augmented for better or worse with the use or lack of SIM?

[Deeprig9]

ANSWER REVEALED:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edge of the Night is the SIM. Strat through Pod for all parts.

 

 

 

 

 

Prove Yourself is Strat through Laney with a crate cab and solo is rat pedal through JC120 and a dd3. Other licks/lead guitar are MIM tele through fender princeton chorus silverface combo.

[GreenAsJade]

Woo hoo Now I can say "there, I thought I can recognise that buzzy sim sound anywhere"

 

And we can conclude that the sim-fans know a good sound when they hear it (Prove Yourself) and wish that it was a sim

 

(Note ... I'm a sim-user, that's how I can recognise on I dream of the day I can afford anything different!)

 

GaJ

[Lee Flier]

What I'm saying is that if the music you are playing uses effects and is mixed with other instruments, then it doesn't matter if it's a sim or an amp. In that case, who cares! That's most music these days! Is there anything in the actual playing that you can hear is being augmented for better or worse with the use or lack of SIM?

 

Well in this case, no, because I don't really like the tone of either one. Like I said, they both really sound like a sim to me. Not trying to insult anybody, and I like your band actually, it's just not my personal taste in guitar tone. And I haven't heard the kinds of tones that I like done with a sim too often.

 

For people who like certain heavily effected sounds, then yeah, like I said it's going to be a lot harder to tell the difference and there's probably not a lot of point to having a great (and expensive, and heavy) tube amp.

 

I also think, as I've said here before, that ultimately it's what inspires the performer that matters more than "whether the listener can tell the difference." If YOU (the performer) can tell the difference, then it's going to affect the performance. And the audience will notice THAT, even if they can't identify what they notice. I notice a big difference between performing through a tube amp and playing thru a sim into a PA or recording direct.

[Giorgi]

I dug "Prove Yourself".

 

"Edge of the Night" less...

 

(What I listen most of the time is Metal, Hard Rock, instrumental guitar.)

[Deeprig9]

Well in this case, no, because I don't really like the tone of either one. Like I said, they both really sound like a sim to me. Not trying to insult anybody, and I like your band actually, it's just not my personal taste in guitar tone. And I haven't heard the kinds of tones that I like done with a sim too often. For people who like certain heavily effected sounds, then yeah, like I said it's going to be a lot harder to tell the difference and there's probably not a lot of point to having a great (and expensive, and heavy) tube amp. I also think, as I've said here before, that ultimately it's what inspires the performer that matters more than "whether the listener can tell the difference." If YOU (the performer) can tell the difference, then it's going to affect the performance. And the audience will notice THAT, even if they can't identify what they notice. I notice a big difference between performing through a tube amp and playing thru a sim into a PA or recording direct.

Oh I'm not offended, just about every one of our songs has some different guitar tone. That's what happens when the singer and the drummer write all the songs, they hear a certain guitar tone in their heads that isn't your tone, so they hand you a pod and tell you to figure it out. Also, that mix of Prove is a bit overdone and there's actually alot of tube tone in the raw tracks I think you'd like, but that's for Phil's forum.

[Deeprig9]

Also, it's hilarious people are still voting after the answer has been given, and voting wrong.

[Electric Catfish]

I didn't ever actually vote. I did say which one I thought was which in my post, though (and I was right)...

Should I go ahead and vote for what I said, anyway?

[strathound]

The sims do a really good job on distorted tones. Clean ... not so much.

[ggm1960]

 

The sims do a really good job on distorted tones. Clean ... not so much.

 

 

I often think the same thing about tube amps which to me sound sluggish and prone to harmonic breakup. A condition due to the saturation and eddy current effects of output transformers as much as the tubes themselves.

[Deeprig9]

The sims do a really good job on distorted tones. Clean ... not so much.

 

 

On that note, I'll say that I tried out a Roland Cube not too long ago and played around on the JC setting and it just sounded like a Marshall with a boss chorus pedal. You'd think the guys and gals at Roland would get a sim of their own amp right.

 

The rest of them sounded incredible though, especially the mesa stuff.

[GreenAsJade]

The sims do a really good job on distorted tones. Clean ... not so much.

 

 

Huh. I struggle with distortion in sims. The classic "this just sounds like digital buzz" is hard to get rid of.

 

Up till now I've assumed that the suckiness of clean tones has been to do with the guitar pickup, not the sim's fault.

 

No amp can make a humbucker sound like a strat single coil. Should a sim be able to?

 

GaJ

[B Money]

"edge of the night" sounds like a POD to me. The other tune is better and I like the guitar sound. The production makes it hard to hear the guitar clearly on 'edge of the night' but it sounds buzzy and squashed.

EDIT: Yes, I posted after the correct answer had already been posted, BUT I intentionally didn't scroll down the thread to find the answer. I posted my reply first and then looked to see if I was right.

[GreenAsJade]

Heh heh, you don't score points for guessing after the answer has been posted

[strathound]

Huh. I struggle with distortion in sims. The classic "this just sounds like digital buzz" is hard to get rid of. Up till now I've assumed that the suckiness of clean tones has been to do with the guitar pickup, not the sim's fault. No amp can make a humbucker sound like a strat single coil. Should a sim be able to? GaJ

 

 

I've got a Tonelab LE. It does a fantastic job creating a Marshall stack kind of sound. And you can dial in a good AC/DC or Van Halen "Eruption" tone. I was really blown away by how good it sounded out of the box. But, if you try to get a good simple strat into tube amp kind of sound ... with a strat ... well, it does ok. But if I A/B it with my strat through my Vibrolux, it's night and day in a live situation. Now, on a recording, it would be harder to tell. Live, the dynamics are different. It's not bad. It's just different.

 

The sims keep getting better and better in my book. The LE is way better than the POD. I'm sure Line6 will come out with something soon that takes the technology to the next step and leapfrogs the competition. And it will keep getting better. But at some point, the diminishing returns vs. cost will start to set in. Tube amps will always be a unique instrument on stage. I don't see that changing.

[Electric Catfish]

Heh heh, you don't score points for guessing after the answer has been posted

I voted in the poll after the answer had been posted, but I had answered in a post before that, and just forgot to vote. I kept it consistent, though.