CL another no pay gig

[newmaxnew]

 

Unfortunately here, the 'real nightcklubs' want to pay you what Joe's {censored}hole did 25 years ago. And it's only because there are suckers that will do it.

 

 

That sucks! I live a little north of Seattle and the nightclub just doesn't even exist anymore. The only thing that exists around here that is even close to the old nightclub scene is the larger casinos.

 

For those of you to young to remember, back in the day there venues that we called nightclubs. They were not even open during the day at all. They had live music five or six nights a week and only employed the best bands around. These bands would bring in a large P.A. and lighting system. You didn't need to check to see who was playing it was given that the band would be good. These places usually charged a cover and people didn't have a problem paying it, in fact there was often a line to get in.

 

Does anybody have a nightclub like that in thier city or town anymore?

 

Max

[wades_keys]

Does anybody have a nightclub like that in thier city or town anymore? Max

 

The closest we have is a joint called "Coyote's".

 

They book national acts only.

 

More accurately, they'll book a local band to open for the national, but it's a non-paying gig.

[Crownman]

 

That sucks! I live a little north of Seattle and the nightclub just doesn't even exist anymore. The only thing that exists around here that is even close to the old nightclub scene is the larger casinos. For those of you to young to remember, back in the day there venues that we called nightclubs. They were not even open during the day at all. They had live music five or six nights a week and only employed the best bands around. These bands would bring in a large P.A. and lighting system. You didn't need to check to see who was playing it was given that the band would be good. These places usually charged a cover and people didn't have a problem paying it, in fact there was often a line to get in. Does anybody have a nightclub like that in thier city or town anymore? Max

 

 

 

That's kind of what the club I work at is. I'm the soundman. The place is a burger joint, it's open 7 days a week. But across the patio is the actual club. It's only open at night, we always have a cover, and we bring in good mid level & up acts. The lighting is nothing super special, but it's taken me 2 years to completely replace the PA. They wanted to bring in bigger acts and I told them we needed the PA for it. And to my surprise.... they gave me the go ahead to get stuff. I can now easily win a fight with a crowd of 500 if I need to. Club max is about 700 and we're doubling up the mains this year and I've got 6 mon. mixes running.

 

Year before last we were calling bands to book gigs. Now we have bands from all over calling us to try and get a slot.

[b3keys_Reno]

In the small bars & clubs....Seems like around here the trend is toward "open mic" jams... The host band does get paid (on the good jams)... the local talent gets to play, (a pretty good time all around especially for the bar owner)

There are a few bands here making a living at it... but i agree it's a lot harder now than in the past (In the 70's, early 80's played in a house-band... 3 nights a week, seems we made about $50/night per member, with free drinks and a free dinner). Seems like the bar owners here still want to pay around $300/night (so... about $60/head... big raise) maybe one drink a set (which is fine with me) and free dinner......... rarely (and it's a burger.. not a full basque meal like the old days)

[Blackbird 13]

 

That sucks! I live a little north of Seattle and the nightclub just doesn't even exist anymore. The only thing that exists around here that is even close to the old nightclub scene is the larger casinos. For those of you to young to remember, back in the day there venues that we called nightclubs. They were not even open during the day at all. They had live music five or six nights a week and only employed the best bands around. These bands would bring in a large P.A. and lighting system. You didn't need to check to see who was playing it was given that the band would be good. These places usually charged a cover and people didn't have a problem paying it, in fact there was often a line to get in. Does anybody have a nightclub like that in thier city or town anymore? Max

 

 

Due to the way ABC laws are around here, most all of the local clubs have to be open during the day, so that the food sales they make will line up with whatever percentage they are supposed to with the alcohol sales.

 

That said, there are quite a few local clubs (around 20 in a 60 mile radius) that have reputations for booking top bands, that have a packed house of people there to see the bands, and about half of those places charge a cover.

[Cirrus]

I wonder if they hire waitstaff who "just love to have a good time"? And since they want everyone to have a good time, I wonder if they give away drinks for free?

 

Amazing! This is EXACTLY what I was going to say, and I was going to reply to the poster asking, except I can't see any contact info.

 

This is just what happens now - Music has no intrinsic value, it did when it was harder to copy for a while, but now it's easy to copy and distribute, and there are people out there who will argue that you're wrong if you tell them it's not fair to steal music.

 

Edit;

 

p.s. Bluestrat, I was looking up stuff about nos tubes and your moniker kept popping up in TGP threads from a few years ago - was that you? You seem to know your stuff!

[AwayEam]

Being in the passenger seat with Vince Neil is apparently a bad place to be. Razzle, the drummer from Hanoi Rocks, also died during a beer run with Vince back in late 1984.

 

HEY BRO

 

Is it bad that I think that's kind of hilarious?

[bloolight]

It doesn't matter what other bands in the area can pull down. It doesn't matter what bands regularly got paid in the 80's. All that matters is whether or not the band in question can bring in more people than the dude with the laptop who plays part-time DJ every weekend. I understand why new bands have to take gigs where they get paid in beer and peanuts...they don't have enough leverage to negotiate anything else. And if they don't get to play, they will never establish a reputation or a draw no matter how good they are.

 

We had a couple of nicely paid gigs at a local bar, and we put on some really good shows. The audience grew as the night went on because people were calling their friends during our break to come in and see us play. Unfortunately, the bar was losing so much money on bands in general compared to DJ and karaoke nights that they ended their live music gigs completely earlier this year.

 

So I understand playing for free...I'm not happy about it, but I understand. We may just be doing it ourselves before too long.

[modulusman]

The way they work where I am at is that a solo host typically runs the thing. They are always a strong pro level entertainer that can front. The so called house band are a pick up rhythm section who are jammers. The full time working pro gets paid well. The house regular jammers get to work with a full time pro front man. Guys who do the house rhythm section are guys who dont want to be in a real band with all the committments that go along with a real band. It feeds the guy who has to make a living and it makes for a really solid band. I would rather play with a first stringer for the joy of playing rather than go do a 300 dollar gig with a band made up of guys who are not the first string. This way there isnt any lowballing taking money out of the pockets of guys who depend on playing for a living. The jammers are guys who could play in a working band and have . it seems to work. Not really a bad way to run it. the host also has capable players who if he needs a full band can tap guys he has been working with. yea its playing for free for the jammers,,, but alot of guys value their freedom from a band and are cool with it.

 

It makes you wonder though would these so called back-up bands be getting the gig if the front man actually had to pay them.

[6StringSling]

This subject comes up a lot and I have to wonder why there are always only two views expressed when it comes to pay: those of the bar/club/venue owners/managers and those of the bands.

 

What's missing? The views of the public. What value does the public place on live music? In the end, since the public is the consumer, isn't what they deem value the important factor?

[modulusman]

Good question Let me try to answer it. The guy i do this deal with is a full time working pro that can play 5 days a week solo and go it alone and make a living. I dont see him going on stage with a bad band just because its free. So yea a paid band would be tough for him. The market wont support it. So finding some guys that really dont want a real band is how he works around it. The guys in the backing band are good. All have played in working bands. They are just at a point in their life where they are retired and dont want a real band. Thats a part time job at least.. they dont want a part time job or the ties that go with a band. take tonight for example. The regular lead guy is down in central america. the font guy will be on the strat tonight. a friend is comming in to blow harp. so tonight, its drums, keys, front guy on lead, a harp player and a bass player. Who knows ,, who else will stop in and sit in for a few. Sitting in is real common down here, but its pretty well always guys who are good and can hang and we know. this is not a situation where a front guy will haul a bunch of hacks up on stage to get a free band. He doesnt need that ,, he can carry a whole show on his own. There is no up side to take the stage without a good band behind him. This deal may be kind of unique. But we are 6 hours pretty well from anywhere, and all the gigs are two miles from the house. lots of small bars on postage stamp sized lots with not alot of seats, that sit on land worth millions on dollars with high operating expenses. i guess location has alot to do with it and so does the fact that you dont have the obligaton of a real band. all I can say is it works and its a no drama situation.

 

So when the leader isn't there who gets paid? Does the leader get paid for these jam sessions? If you guys do OK without the frontman then the bar might tell him to take a hike. I bet he would like that.

[AwayEam]

 

This subject comes up a lot and I have to wonder why there are always only two views expressed when it comes to pay: those of the bar/club/venue owners/managers and those of the bands. What's missing? The views of the public. What value does the public place on live music? In the end, since the public is the consumer, isn't what they deem value the important factor?

 

 

HEY BRO

 

Nah. They're idiots.

[BlueStrat]

 

What's missing? The views of the public. What value does the public place on live music? In the end, since the public is the consumer, isn't what they deem value the important factor? __________________

 

 

Not really. If a bar has no cover (almost none of them do here anymore) the public could not care less if the band is getting paid 500 dollars or 50 dollars.

[modulusman]

Thats not going to happen. i have guys talk to me all the time who cant undestand the loyality and friendship thing. i am sure the others have the same kind of conversations with people. Lets just say its the most fun gig I have ever had. The energy is the pay off. no drama , no trama no booze no issues. That really means somthing to us. now in the future will we see money ,, My guess is yes, but its not a deal breaker for me If i dont. I guess we just do things island style. Its a magical place down here. The rules that other places operate on kind of get sucked up by the gulf , the salt and the sand. I got sea breeze and palm trees in my back yard.. brother you cant bet that with stick ,, even if you turn some free gigs to put a smile on your face. Up north its a total mercinary music scene for good musicans..with top pay for good bands. down here its laid back. Life slows down and thats cool because none of us are getting any younger.

 

The bull{censored} is pretty deep down there in Texas. You sound like a texan posting on another forum about how her 3 piece jam night band gets paid $20.00 to split 3 ways and three beers apiece. I'm glad that Montana isn't as screwed up as Texas.

[BlueStrat]

The bull{censored} is pretty deep down there in Texas. You sound like a texan posting on another forum about how her 3 piece jam night band gets paid $20.00 to split 3 ways and three beers apiece. I'm glad that Montana isn't as screwed up as Texas.

You know what? I believe it. Montana is paradise compared to some of the horror stories I've heard from my friends in Texas. There waqs a documentary I watched a few months ago about a very cute little 27 year old singer/songwriter with a record out trying to make enough to stay on a two week tour with her small band from Austin to LA and back. She had to play beer joints where they pushed the pool tables out of the way, some places where she'd show up and the PA that was promised wasn't there and some nights wouldn't break even.

 

Montana really is a slice of the way it used to be 'back in the day'. I went to the Finsh Line in Kalispell (last time was 2004) and they paid me $750 and rooms and dinner and breakfast for one night. Then I'd go to Missoula or Helena and make another 650-700 for oe night in a bar or do a festival show for 1500.

 

It used to be that way here, too, but there are so many retired pro musicians here and hobbyists who came here to raise their kids that will play just to get out of the house, it isn't funny.

[SteinbergerHack]

 

If you are grubbin over the bucks at a local level,, you are not int the game that hard anyway. You will die of stress befoe you starve to death.

 

 

The problem is that $300-400/night doesn't cover costs for anything other than a very basic hack job of a group. To carry decent PA, lights, and personal equipment costs more than that, not to mention basic maintenance (strings/sticks/drum heads, etc.). If you're not getting at least $100/man, you're losing money. (Don't believe me? Add up what you actually spend over the course of a year, just like you would in a "real" business.)

 

When you think about that fact that any decent heavy rock band is carrying at least $8-10K worth of gear to play even a modest-sized bar, it becomes obvious that anyone who is accepting less than $500+ is screwing up the market and turning it into a pay-to-play situation. Frankly, I don't give a rip that someone is WILLING to play for free beer - but it really ticks me off that guys do it. The problem is that when they play for nothing (or very little), they devalue the act of playing live music. Once a bar owner has gotten something for nothing, they have no incentive to ever pay anyone.

 

Now, if you were an auto mechanic and someone opened up a shop down the street and started selling their services at $5/hour, how would you feel about that? How do you think your customers are going to feel about your pricing?

[rhat]

 

The problem is that $300-400/night doesn't cover costs for anything other than a very basic hack job of a group. To carry decent PA, lights, and personal equipment costs more than that, not to mention basic maintenance (strings/sticks/drum heads, etc.). If you're not getting at least $100/man, you're losing money. (Don't believe me? Add up what you actually spend over the course of a year, just like you would in a "real" business.) When you think about that fact that any decent heavy rock band is carrying at least $8-10K worth of gear to play even a modest-sized bar, it becomes obvious that anyone who is accepting less than $500+ is screwing up the market and turning it into a pay-to-play situation. Frankly, I don't give a rip that someone is WILLING to play for free beer - but it really ticks me off that guys do it. The problem is that when they play for nothing (or very little), they devalue the act of playing live music. Once a bar owner has gotten something for nothing, they have no incentive to ever pay anyone. Now, if you were an auto mechanic and someone opened up a shop down the street and started selling their services at $5/hour, how would you feel about that? How do you think your customers are going to feel about your pricing?

 

 

 

The low ballers in aviation made music look like romper room. i just kept my focus on my game and my deal ,, and ya know what ,, none of those guys ever effected me. i refused to give any energy of mine to that. I was just doing what I needed to move on to the next level. some guys passed me on the ladder and some guys never got off the first rung. what was funny was the guys that were the most cranked up about it typically were the guys that I went right on by. Its what you do that makes a difference ,, not what anyone else does. i cant hurt you ,,, you can hurt yourself though.

[SteinbergerHack]

 

The low ballers in aviation made music look like romper room. i just kept my focus on my game and my deal ,, and ya know what ,, none of those guys ever effected me. i refused to give any energy of mine to that. I was just dong what I needed to move on to the next level. some guys passed me on the ladder and some guys never got off the first rung. what was funny was the guys that were the most cranked up about it typically were the guys that I went right on by.

 

 

Cool story - but not relevant to the club music market. Other music styles don't seem to have as much of a problem - symphonies, musical theater, etc., all seem to be doing as well as they ever have. Heck, I can make more money playing for a community theater pit orchestra for a couple of weeks than I can in a couple of months of club gigs - and I don't have to lug in anywhere near as much equipment. I think that in the club market we have somehow managed to collectively devalue ourselves to the point that it's almost not worth loading the gear up to go play....

 

Anecdote: My band played a private party two weeks ago, for decent (but not great) money. Near the end of the gig, the club president came up to me and asked me how we could afford to give them the level of entertainment we did for such a low price. He told me that hey had taken a few bids and we weren't the cheapest - but he felt like we were under-charging, given the amount of equipment we brought and the level of show we put on. My point is that the people who hear good bands still appreciate them and would be willing to pay what it's worth to hear them - but the club owners have decided that they don't have to pay us. This needs to change, and it won't change until the people who are playing for nothing start saying "NO" and charging what they are worth.

[snoggin]

I for sure do not know the answer to this question.. What about someone like me.. All three of us in my band are kind of anti social hehe.. I end up circulating with people I work with (few) and people I met thru my obsessions.. none of us work at a company with lots of coworkers or somewhere where you would have lots of acquantences.

 

Yet we love to play fo r an audience.. But we dont have a ton of fr=einds we can call on to come out to our shows and many are to old and sleepy to get off the couch.. But we plug away

 

I am more excited about music than ever before and really into doing the original thing.. We play covers too but more and more original songs get added to the set.

 

My strategy which may be hopeless is to at least try and write some really good tunes.. work hard on my chops and performing them and putting them out in front of people and hoping to scratch up some kind of following. I have some converts so far but it is tough.. I dont know of and "good " venues around here that I can get into at this point. Most of those of which there are maybe two are either pay to play or you have to know someone. Or be a legacy band.

 

If I had any sense at all I would probably give up because the odds of anything fulfilling coming out of all this work arent that good .... at all

 

But the fact is I am driven at the moment and get a thrill out of playing thats worth all the trouble. It just doesnt pay.. From what I see around here the good musicians are either doing the same thing I am or not playing at all.

 

Some do have a following of sorts and my hats off to them but it does make it boring to go out to certain clubs and its the same 4-5 bands in pretty much constant rotation for the good slots on the weekend.. Weeknights it is just not worth the trouble most of the time for the number of bodies in the bar.. Its kind of a vicious cycle.

 

So I try and improve my product and my playing and performance and hope that somehow that may make a difference in the end.. I guess it cant hurt

[modulusman]

Pat and mod ,,, whats so funny about you guys is that that you are in reality are doing what I call pay to play. You pay alot for it too. you pay it every day in the stress, anger and bitterness,, you give yourselfs over what others choose to do. i question of you really understand the cost of that. Dude it will eat you alive. Aviation was like that. Never will I ever put myself in a situation like that again. The cost is just too high. You may figure that out someday ,,,, in a couple hours ,, I will jump in my buggie,, drive across the bridge and load in, play with my friends for a great crowd , and walk out with a smile on my face and a gig buzz from the people who came to see us that will last till 3 am from 6 to 10 show. I almost feel sorry for you.

 

My guess is if you went up to the band leader and said "I would like to get paid from now on for jam night" He would send your ass packin and find another idiot to take your place. It is pretty hard to compete with free. Oh and I'm also happy that your retirement savings account is full and you don't need the money. Oh, and in a few months I will jump in a vehicle and drive through the paradise valley and play at a guest ranch 20 miles outside Yellowstone Park. Famous people and celebrities may be in the audience. I will be fed, play for 2 hours and be home by midnight. The next day I will cash my $300.00 paycheck then do the same thing the next week from June to Sept. Now which gig would you rather have. :poke:

[rhat]

My guess is if you went up to the band leader and said "I would like to get paid from now on for jam night" He would send your ass packin and find another idiot to take your place. It is pretty hard to compete with free. Oh and I'm also happy that your retirement savings account is full and you don't need the money. Oh, and in a few months I will jump in a vehicle and drive through the paradise valley and play at a guest ranch 20 miles outside Yellowstone Park. Famous people and celebrities may be in the audience. I will be fed, play for 2 hours and be home by midnight. The next day I will cash my $300.00 paycheck then do the same thing the next week from June to Sept. Now which gig would you rather have. :poke:

 

My guess is that if I had to play the gig with you ,, i would rather do what i am doing ,, guy you are ate up with {censored} loads of bitter ass stress. Aint no check big enough to get me to buy into that ,, I had a lifetime full of it.

 

It not worth the money. I did a very stressful job for money. I could make 300 bucks real fast when i was a workin stiff. I am punched out on that deal. You can insult me till the cows come home... its not going to change a thing. its just going to give you heartburn. i have no envy for guys like you,, i am sure you are a nice guy ,, but not the kind of guy i would ever want to work with or work for or hire. famous people aint no big deal ,,, the were just like anyone else in the back of the airplanes I used to fly. a ass in a seat with a suit. here is your paper here are the snacks ,, and the beverages ,, its cloudy and 50 degrees in indy with the wind out of the north .... enjoy the flight. I did my time ,, now i am on island time.

[SteinbergerHack]

 

My guess is that if I had to play the gig with you ,, i would rather do what i am doing ,, guy you are ate up with {censored} loads of bitter ass stress. Aint no check big enough to get me to buy into that ,, I had a lifetime full of it. It not worth the money. I did a very stressful job for money. I could make 300 bucks real fast when i was a workin stiff. I am punched out on that deal. You can insult me till the cows come home... its not going to change a thing. its just going to give you heartburn. i have no envy for guys like you,, i am sure you are a nice guy ,, but not the kind of guy i would ever want to work with or work for or hire. famous people aint no big deal ,,, the were just like anyone else in the back of the airplanes I used to fly. a ass in a seat with a suit. here is your paper here are the snacks ,, and the beverages ,, its cloudy and 50 degrees in indy with the wind out of the north .... enjoy the flight. I did my time ,, now i am on island time.

 

 

Guys with your attitude are the best reason I've ever seen for having a musician's union.....and I detest unions.

[6StringSling]

 

Pat and mod ,,, whats so funny about you guys is that that you are in reality are doing what I call pay to play. You pay alot for it too. you pay it every day in the stress, anger and bitterness,

 

It's called "caring" - about the business you're in and the people involved. Some care more than others and some don't care at all. But stress, anger and bitterness are usually the lot of those who care enough to effect change; not only that, but they're usually trying to effect change because they're already stressed, angry and bitter about a situation.

[bloolight]

 

Th I don't give a rip that someone is WILLING to play for free beer - but it really ticks me off that guys do it. The problem is that when they play for nothing (or very little), they devalue the act of playing live music. Once a bar owner has gotten something for nothing, they have no incentive to ever pay anyone.

 

 

 

I have to disagree with you on that one. A bar owner, when faced with booking my band (with no draw and little experience) and a "professional" band (with a huge draw and a sizeable fee) will not simply give us the gig because we're cheap. We're cheap because we don't draw...the band with the big fee can chage such a thing because they bring a lot of thirsty bodies in the door. If there are enough thirsty bodies that the bar owner makes more money with the pro band, they will politely (or rudely) ignore our demo CD and book the pros. If the pros want a huge fee and can't bring a profit into the bar owner's pocket, they're going to be out of work whether or not a cheap amateur band is waiting in the wings. For every band out there, there is a DJ or a karaoke machine waiting to step up and take the venue away.

[SteinbergerHack]

 

I have to disagree with you on that one. A bar owner, when faced with booking my band (with no draw and little experience) and a "professional" band (with a huge draw and a sizeable fee) will not simply give us the gig because we're cheap. We're cheap because we don't draw...the band with the big fee can chage such a thing because they bring a lot of thirsty bodies in the door. If there are enough thirsty bodies that the bar owner makes more money with the pro band, they will politely (or rudely) ignore our demo CD and book the pros. If the pros want a huge fee and can't bring a profit into the bar owner's pocket, they're going to be out of work whether or not a cheap amateur band is waiting in the wings. For every band out there, there is a DJ or a karaoke machine waiting to step up and take the venue away.

 

 

If you're not drawing a crowd, I agree that you can't justify good pay. What I am talking about is guys who are packing the club and still working for $400. I've heard a club owner tell me "Your band and X both pack the place. I like you guys better, but they charge me $200 less each night. Sorry."