Members Blackbird 13 Posted January 14, 2011 Members Share Posted January 14, 2011 Being out and out shorted on pay has only happened to me once that I can remember in ten years... and I let it go. I was young, and didn't want to do anything stupid. If it were now, I'd take him to court on a verbal contract.. I have "been asked to work with" a club owner or bar manager probably around ten times over the course of the past ten years (by which I mean end early and take less money), and almost all of those clubs have ended with us not playing there much more after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tim_7string Posted January 14, 2011 Members Share Posted January 14, 2011 I'm not sure if I'm one of the two people MartinC is referring to, but in my case, I knew going in that we were only going to get $600 for two nights rather than $700 (still a low amount IMO). I could have easily refused the gig and told him I'm only playing if we get the full amount, otherwise no deal. I didn't. I still got to play a gig under my name, but that was a hefty price to pay as far as I'm concerned. And I'm not going to do that again in the future. Stupid, stupid, stupid... We have always played for a gaurantee... in that same $pay range. It allows us to budget for gigs, estimate income coming in, manage expenses. We would never agree to play for the door... unless we were managing that door of course (you are going to trust doorman?). And we've never wanted to be that band with their hand out asking people to directly "pay the band" at the door. That gets old quick. This way, the club get's to look like the bad guy. They set the rate, and they charge and collect at the door. We get paid regardless. Yep, this is the way I like to operate. I have only been part of a "Pay to Play" situation once (had to pay a $5 "entry fee" for the privilege of playing in a Battle Of The Bands; the band hosting it with their PA won...gee, what a surprise ) and I have only played maybe one dance where we were asked to take what was made from the door rather than the flat fee that was agreed upon in a contract. Otherwise, I have always played for a flat fee. If it's a slow night and the bar owner grumbles, guess what? We don't have to play there again, but they are damn well going to pay me what we agreed to. A bar owner in 2009 threatened to not pay my band if she didn't like the way we sounded on the second night. We played the first night with a drum machine because the drummer couldn't make it. On reflection, it was my fault for not telling her in advance that he could only make the one night and that we would be using a drum machine for the first of two nights. She did pay us for the first night in cash, but that made it seem even more possible that she wouldn't pay us the rest the following night. I did not like the stress of knowing that my drummer would be driving 5.5 hours one way to the gig and we might not get paid for that night. I told him that I would pay him no matter what, but it was very nerve-wracking. Understandably, we have not been to that bar since and never will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted January 14, 2011 Members Share Posted January 14, 2011 I can't recall it ever happening. I can't believe that there hasn't been at least an attempt at some point in one of the bands I've been in over the last 35 years, but I really can't remember it happening if it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bnelly428 Posted January 14, 2011 Members Share Posted January 14, 2011 It's happened to us. But at the end of the day I have to decided whether taking a $100 hit here or there is enough to not play a venue or multiple venues. I consider it part of the business FOR NOW. We've been together for 16 months so we're infants compared to some bands around here. Once we get into that $1000/night range (not that easy around here right now) that won't be the case. It's all about bringing people in who are going to spend money. With unemployment Top5 in the country being RI, less people are going out, period. Less disposable income. So for now, I feel this is the perfect time to build a following, they're be loyal when the economy turns and guess what? THey'll bring their friends with them when it does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kramerguy Posted January 14, 2011 Members Share Posted January 14, 2011 I'm not sure "followings" exist anymore. At least not the way they used to. Cover bands used to get them, but not much anymore. More often than not, it's about which bands have the most members whose friends and families come out to the most gigs. Music has become a popularity contest, with the music quality no longer accounting for any part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members -=Pennywise=- Posted January 14, 2011 Members Share Posted January 14, 2011 Does getting shorted also mean having your gigs cancelled? Three of the bars my band play in frequently last year had change overs in their management just recently, and these new yuppie prick "managers" decide they want to fill their new found place of business with karaoke fests, techo-crap DJ dance nights, and 3-man celtic acoustical jams, bumping us and many other bands out of the place that had gigs booked there this year. lame I sayz..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rangefinder Posted January 14, 2011 Members Share Posted January 14, 2011 I'm not sure "followings" exist anymore. They sure do around here (upstate NY). The hotties follow a handful of bands around. The guys follow the hotties. The other bands are interchangeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RupertB Posted January 14, 2011 Members Share Posted January 14, 2011 Shorted on pay? 1991. Never went back. Gig canceled because of double booking? Happened this week for a Saturday duo gig. Since I've got a cold, we're playing Friday, and the NFC Regional starts at 8pm Saturday, we took another date. It happens. If it becomes a regular thing, we'll dump 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dancebass Posted January 14, 2011 Members Share Posted January 14, 2011 Uh....I play originals. Get shorted on what??? : P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jeff42 Posted January 14, 2011 Members Share Posted January 14, 2011 cancelled... sure. Double booked? Yep. I think 2 or 3X. Once we actually made it work. The bar manager was friends with members of both bands and didn't want to cancel either so: We set up on opposite ends of this outside bar/restuarant, We played for 45 minutes the other band played for 45 minutes and so on. We both got paid the full amount. as for followings. I'd say they still exist and are pretty big for some bands but overall they don't seem to be as big as they were. We do have a very small following. By that I mean people that come see us that are not family or close friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members uitar9 Posted January 14, 2011 Members Share Posted January 14, 2011 We just played a freebie for a friend who was having a party at a local bar. She fed us and watered us. It was an off night for the bar and between her friends and family and ours, the place was packed. Lots of drinking,lots of food. They stayed and danced all night. We went back to the bar owner to see if he was interested in hiring us. His reply: he didn't make any money that night. If he didn't make money that night he is either getting ripped off by his people or he is a loser businessman Most Bar owners we know are poor business men, drunks, are serious pricks, have no decency, could't give a {censored} about customer service. Then there is a negative side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 3shiftgtr Posted January 15, 2011 Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 Last time was a couple of years ago. Great story: This lady owned a pretty nice room; good sized with a nice stage etc. She was an in shape redneck blonde in her 50's with big fake tits, and still dressed like she did in the 80;s....crusty-stiff "big girl" hair, a layered clothing, shorts, frilly ankle socks, high heels...you get the picture. We played there on and off for about a year and she loved us. Well, a fight and a murder attempt in the parking lot killed her crowd as the po po began visiting more frequently and doing walk thru's in the club. The last two times we had played there the crowd dwindled to nearly nothing. I knew she was on her way out. When I came to collect for the weekend after the performance Sat nigh, she bull{censored}ted an excuse why she had to short us. Something about our start time, and our set list and some other non points. We were making $1200 for the weekend and she only gave me $800. Said that was all we were worth. I knew the real reason was cuz she didn't have it. So I asked for booze in place of the $400 she shorted us. She said "Not no but HELL no." THEN I got pissed. We went back and forth and things got really heated. I called her on her bull{censored} and we were making some serious noise. Then she started literally weeping. Through big ol tears, she went on and on about how she couldn't pay her bills etc. I told her that if she could come up with another $200, we would be cool and leave and no hard feelings, but if not, we were taking some alchohol with us.... She came up with $100 and gave us 4 cases of Bud. And then broke down crying again. "Ahm sew sorry....you all have been so good to me...but fellas, I jest ain't got it....Ahm gonna have to shut it down if it don't get better....." Then she threw herself at our drummer and she just bawled....for like 3 or 4 miniutes...in his arms leaving a big mascara stain on his shirt, with us just patting her shoulder and going "It's all right. It's all gonna be o.k." The joint shut down 2 weeks later. Dammit when they commence to bawlin'.......cost me $300!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scott Powell Posted January 16, 2011 Members Share Posted January 16, 2011 yes, i have been shorted,cancelled and doublebooked before it comes with the territory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SoundBob Posted January 16, 2011 Members Share Posted January 16, 2011 Any band I have ever been with has never been shorted since 1980. We NEVER play a gig without a signed contract, no matter what. If we have a last minute gig call, we fax a contract and when it's faxed back with a copy of their I.D., it's good. If it's close by, we will show up with a contract in hand and it has to be signed before we load in. Our contract covers everything from refreshments for the band to adequate electricity. Some contracts are payable before we even start. There are no excuses when it's in writing. Since we don't play bars anymore and concentrate on Private, Corporate and Fair gigs, we don't have any issues. For bars (when we did play them), fixed rate and/or fixed with a portion of the door over a certain dollar amount. NEVER just a portion of the door. If you have to go that way, you need someone at the door from your band, be it girlfriend or whatever, to keep track of the income along with the door person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jamieb Posted January 18, 2011 Members Share Posted January 18, 2011 An old band I was in had a regular gig at the local "biker" bar. It was the bikers' favorite place, but it was also a restaurant, so all ages/types were there, with seldom a problem. (It probably helped that I had friends/family with both crowds, but I digress...) The original owner sold out, and a young guy bought the place. (Actually his mom bought it for him, or so I heard.) Anyway, he "converted" to a biker, and viewed the place as less of a business, and more of his own private party place. He was usually tanked by the end of the night. So, one night, one of the popular bikers gets killed in a crash. They have people come to town from all over for the funeral. Afterward, they all show up at the place for what I would consider the "wake" portion of the service. The place was absolutely packed. They had a tribute "toast", and then the party was on. I should've mentioned already that we played for a guarantee vs. the door. Our frontman spoke to the doorman, and commented that we ought to have a good night. The doorman shook his head "No". Turns out that the owner had told the doorman that all the bikers got in free that night because of the funeral. We confronted him about it, and he kept saying "(Whatever the guy's name was) DIED!" Well, I asked him if they were all drinking for free. He said that he comp'ed them the toast. We asked about food and the rest of the drinks. Of course, they had to pay for those, but WE were supposed to sacrifice what we figured up to be several hundred dollars for the cause. Needless to say, we never played for him again. The place eventually closed down... A while later, after old wounds had healed (I was in a completely different band), he wandered in to a place my new band was playing, along with a biker friend I used to work with. They had ridden their motorcycles to the show. I acknowledged him in passing. Maybe spoke briefly. Can't remember for sure. That night, after he left, the police tried to stop him. He ran. There was a high-speed chase. From what I hear, the cops got his tag and had already backed off, but he kept running, hit some railroad tracks, lost control, and (from what I heard) hit a tree face-first. Died instantly. Left a wife (whom I think was pregnant at the time, or the baby was newborn.) Not saying it was Karma or anything. I really usually always got along with the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkwire Posted January 18, 2011 Members Share Posted January 18, 2011 Last (and only) time I was shorted was back in 1988. We played a Wed/Thur booking at a club. One of those, "if you do well, we'll book you on the weekend" deals... It was snowing when we set up on Wednesday and it started getting heavy. The club was in a fairly remote location, so people cleared out early. At the beginning of the 3rd set, there were no customers left. The bartender told us to shut it down, because if we played until closing, we'd be stuck. So we did, and we had a hell of a time getting home. Showed up the next night...all the roads had been cleared, and we had a good turnout. Everybody was in a good mood. Then the bar owner came over to pay us. He hadn't been there on Wednesday. He said since we didn't play a full night, he was docking us $150. We told him we quit early because one of his employees told us to. His response was, "I don't give a f***...you didn't play a full night, so I ain't paying you for a full night." Our keyboard player was (to put it mildly) not good with money, and he flipped out. I'm sure he knew to the penny what his cut was going to be and had it already spent. He was nose to nose with the bar owner, and it was getting heated. I physically dragged him away from the bar owner. He almost decked me when I did. I backed him in the corner and told him if he kept arguing with the guy, the next step was he would just refuse to pay us. I told him we needed to shut up, collect what he was going to give us, get the hell out, and never play there again. We had a bartender attempt to short us $200 last year..."We didn't have a good night, are you willing to help out?" Hell, no. Are you throwing your tips in the pot to "help out"? Didn't think so. Pay me the agreed-upon amount and whine to somebody else. Double bookings...had it happen to us twice at one club. The first time, our drummer had gotten there first and started setting up, so they gave us the booking. The next time, the other band got there first and they got the booking. We stopped playing there after that. I don't know how it works in other states, but in Minnesota, if a bar is delinquent in their state taxes, liquor vendors are not allowed to sell to them. A lot of clubs keep their doors open by having the crew go to liquor stores and buy the booze there. The state maintains a listing of the clubs that are delinquent. I keep the link bookmarked on my PC and check it at least weekly. Our drummer mentioned that he was going to drop our promo off at a certain club. I told him they were on the list, so he didn't bother. They closed down a couple of weeks later. Avoiding clubs with severe cash flow problems helps you avoid getting shorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bnelly428 Posted January 18, 2011 Members Share Posted January 18, 2011 We had a bartender attempt to short us $200 last year..."We didn't have a good night, are you willing to help out?" Hell, no. Are you throwing your tips in the pot to "help out"? Didn't think so. Pay me the agreed-upon amount and whine to somebody else. I'm so using this logic if it happens again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted January 18, 2011 Members Share Posted January 18, 2011 cancelled... sure. Double booked? Yep. I think 2 or 3X. Cancellations are bound to happen. Had a couple of casuals cancel in the last couple of months, actually. Fortunately, we took a $500 deposit both times, so it wasn't a total loss (although one was on a date we ended up having another offer for that we turned down. Hence the reason for taking deposits, I suppose.) While I'd certainly much rather have played the gigs, it is interesting that we made more NOT playing THOSE gigs than we used to make playing a lot of bars. I've been double-booked a few times but, either through having a contract or being the preferred band, always ended up being the band who stayed and played. That hasn't happened in a long, long time though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tim_7string Posted January 18, 2011 Members Share Posted January 18, 2011 I don't know how it works in other states, but in Minnesota, if a bar is delinquent in their state taxes, liquor vendors are not allowed to sell to them. A lot of clubs keep their doors open by having the crew go to liquor stores and buy the booze there. The state maintains a listing of the clubs that are delinquent. I keep the link bookmarked on my PC and check it at least weekly. Our drummer mentioned that he was going to drop our promo off at a certain club. I told him they were on the list, so he didn't bother. They closed down a couple of weeks later. Avoiding clubs with severe cash flow problems helps you avoid getting shorted. Do you have that link handy? I'd love to find a version of that list for North Dakota bars. I hear people talking about certain places and how well (or not well) they are doing financially and I'd be curious if one of the places I play is one of the delinquent ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rezrover Posted January 18, 2011 Members Share Posted January 18, 2011 I don't know how it works in other states, but in Minnesota, if a bar is delinquent in their state taxes, liquor vendors are not allowed to sell to them. A lot of clubs keep their doors open by having the crew go to liquor stores and buy the booze there. Legally, you're only supposed to be able to $500 worth of booze in that fashion for "emergencies". Liquor stores in Minnesota used to have a seal over the tops of the bottles while liquor vendors that sold directly to bars didn't so the state could tell if a bar was buying booze from a liquor store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkwire Posted January 18, 2011 Members Share Posted January 18, 2011 Do you have that link handy? I'd love to find a version of that list for North Dakota bars. I hear people talking about certain places and how well (or not well) they are doing financially and I'd be curious if one of the places I play is one of the delinquent ones. It's on my home computer, I'll send it to you tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Funkwire Posted January 18, 2011 Members Share Posted January 18, 2011 Legally, you're only supposed to be able to $500 worth of booze in that fashion for "emergencies". Liquor stores in Minnesota used to have a seal over the tops of the bottles while liquor vendors that sold directly to bars didn't so the state could tell if a bar was buying booze from a liquor store. I remember those seals! Haven't seen them in years. Legally...snicker. I know of one bar owner who made his whole crew come in during the day and hit several liquor stores to stock up. There's a bar a couple of miles from my house that's been on the list for several months now, but is still open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members toneforhire Posted January 25, 2011 Members Share Posted January 25, 2011 It happened too frequently lately with the bars/clubs...most of them today are honest enough up front to tell you they dont pay {censored}... Ive almost never been stiffed on an event or wedding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted January 26, 2011 Members Share Posted January 26, 2011 I've been in a band where when it came time to get paid, the agreed upon amount got cut-according to the band leader. But it's never happened to me when I was doing the business. I can only think of one time when a guy asked to cut the pay of a duo-we played three sets to a mostly empty bar. I said no, and the guy coughed up the two bills. I didn't want to play there again anyway for 100.-the guy had no crowd. I was just reading another thread and two posters talked about being shorted. How often does this happen to your group? And do you accept it as part of the deal if you want another gig there, or do you write off the place? I figure a deal's a deal-you play, you get paid the agreed upon amount, no matter if the place is packed or empty.maybe once or twice in 30 years of gigging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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