Members mparsons Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 What seperates the cheap power amps and the nice power amps of the same power and features? Sorry for the noob question but just wanted to hear some real world experience on what to expect out of higher and lower end gear. Also, how should I power these speakers: 2 Yamaha Club series S115Vs, and 2 Yamaha Club series S118Vs? Right now I am considering running the like speakers in series and powering them from two different channels of a power amp. But any suggestions you have would be probably better. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stunningbabe Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 in my humblest opinion...the cheap ones produce harsher frequencies. It has lesser 'control' on the bass...making the bass sound splattered and loose. Cheap amps are not as flat frequnecy response as dearer ones. The former tend to color the sounds a lot more. Am I right?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 From my perspective, quality (good parts/QC, no shortcuts), an accurate output rating and features seem to be the major differances. I've heard a system driven with cheap Behringer amps and it sounded fine to my ears. I just wouldn't want to count on that amp. Other DJ type brands will advertise enourmous output ratings and it's total BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Quality amplifiers will have better componets/build quality and will be backed by a good warranty. Also, their specs are not exagerated or given in peak figures (like those 2000 watt amps on ebay for 179$) QSC, Crown, Crest audio, Peavey, Yamaha and Yorkville are some of the brands I would recommend. All come with a 2-6 year warranty as opposed to the Behringer type amps that usually come with 1 year (or less) only. QSC RMX2450, Yamaha P7000 and Crown XLS602 are all good values for their power ratings. 600 - 900 watts/channel @ 4ohms which should be about perfect for your setup. Al Poulin - Party-time! DJ Services Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dark Ice Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Efficiency, features such as limiters, overload protection, DC protection, various other types of protection I dont pretend to grasp, ability to handle low loads well, ability to remain cool when driven hard, reliability, build quality, adjustable sensitivity ratings, ability to bridge, honesty of the power ratings. Then once you're comparing the more expensive amps you could end up paying more for weight reduction or a different topology of amp (class D for example), remote monitoring, remote control, improved specs such as dampening factor or power reserves, ability to perform well under bad electrical conditions, ability to provide close to the rated power at all frequencies (this is not the same as frequency response). Then, its pretty much a matter of what you hear, some people claim you get more thump with a certain type of amplifier over another, some amps are just renound for their certain sound. I dont really hear much people talking about the sound characteristics of cheaper amps though. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Good quality amps have real world useful specs (not just statisticly produced numbers manufactured to make them look good). You could build a bridge out of a couple of planks and call it good or you could engineer a bridge out of steel with concrete footings. Which would you rather use to cross the gourge each day? (read under engineered/over engineered). Sound wise there are huge differences in both top end (slew rate), bottom end (damping factor) and across the audio spectrem (Phase coherancy). Another thing to think about is resale value. My Advice Don't Buy Cheap Stuff (somewhere down the road it'll come back and bite you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Then, its pretty much a matter of what you hear, some people claim you get more thump with a certain type of amplifier over another, some amps are just renound for their certain sound. I dont really hear much people talking about the sound characteristics of cheaper amps though. Steve. An amplifier takes a signal and amplifes it. At normal listening levels, all amplifiers should sound the same. It`s when amplifiers are pushed to the maximum and into clipping that you will hear differences in the way they sound/react to the clipping. It is also at high levels that you will see which amplifiers are capable of delivering short burts of extra power needed for brief transients or peaks. You will pay extra for amplifiers with switching power supplies but be rewarded by lesser weight. I have owned about 10 different professional amplifiers and have never noticed any of them sounding different than another. Some need more signal from the mixer to get to a certain loudness (different sensitivity) but that`s about it. Al Poulin - Party-time! DJ Services Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dark Ice Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Thats a very good explanation. I dont say that I have heard these differences between amplifiers myself, but I often read comments about them, more over at the lab than on here though. Theres usually someone saying that PLX suck on subs, or that the old crest pro series sounded better than the new ones, or that the macrotechs have a certain characteristic to them. I remember there was a thread on here where it was claimed that a K1 sounded better on tops than a K2... On the other hand, I rarely hear people making such comments about PV2600s or DCM2000s. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by Dark Ice Thats a very good explanation. I dont say that I have heard these differences between amplifiers myself, but I often read comments about them, more over at the lab than on here though. Theres usually someone saying that PLX suck on subs, or that the old crest pro series sounded better than the new ones, or that the macrotechs have a certain characteristic to them. I remember there was a thread on here where it was claimed that a K1 sounded better on tops than a K2... On the other hand, I rarely hear people making such comments about PV2600s or DCM2000s. Steve. Some people think their speakers sound better with different cables. These cables have a more open sound and make the highs sparkle and the bass much more present.... But let`s not get into that argument. I think when you pay 200$ for 25`of speaker cable (home audio), it will automatically sound better to you than regular cable. You would kick yourself in the ass for spending that much and not being able to hear the difference wouldn`t you? Anyway.... I think earlier switching power supply amps were problematic on sub duty because they had trouble continuously delivering the large amounts of power required for sub duty vs. the traditional class AB amps. I think they have improved in the last few years however. For the PV2600 and DCM2000s, both look like great amps. Traditional class AB amps. Actually, if you look in the Carvin catalogue and their explanation of their double kick test and how certain amps run out of juice to properly reproduce the second kick - I think they are referring to switching type amps, class H if I am correct. Al Poulin - Party-Time! DJ Services Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 17, 2006 CMS Author Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by mparsons What seperates the cheap power amps and the nice power amps of the same power and features?Sorry for the noob question but just wanted to hear some real world experience on what to expect out of higher and lower end gear.Also, how should I power these speakers: 2 Yamaha Club series S115Vs, and 2 Yamaha Club series S118Vs? Right now I am considering running the like speakers in series and powering them from two different channels of a power amp. But any suggestions you have would be probably better.Thanks! You can expect better reliability out of the higher end gear, and more features like limiters, HPF's and easy switching of these and other controls in and out of the system. You can expect to find higer end amps that weigh considerably less and use less power. This is generally newer technology. Don't expect huge differences in perceived quality of sound....most amps share very similar circuitry and are capable of very clean amplification. Even though the cheaper amps have older technology, most of the R&D money goes into weight savings and efficiency. A QSC RMX1850HD would be a good choice to power both speakers. Note that the wiring would be parallel, not series...you plug one cable from amp to speaker, and then from that speaker to the other. With the Clubs, that'll be a parallel circuit, which is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 The better quality (and more expenisve) amps use more complicated technology to improve performance, manage AC power draw, decrease dissipated heat and drive low impedance reactive loads better. They will generally be made using better quality parts, better assembly methods, more design headroom (between the operating area and failure areas of the parts), safety certifications, more robust mechanical assembly and better warranty/product support. Features (important ones anyway) are generally better on the more expensive amps, and lower weight is also possible at additional cost. Cheap amps by no-name companies are not a bargain at any price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JohnnyGraphic Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 What about all of those little flashy lights on the front panel??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by JohnnyGraphic What about all of those little flashy lights on the front panel??? It`s to keep the user entertained so he won`t think of looking at what`s inside..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 There are speaker cabinets with internal crossovers that are very reactive. The better amplifiers can push a reactive load while others will choke and gag. Some are not as bad but it's enough to lose definition and punch in bass subs. Notice I said better, not cheaper - I know of sturdy expensive amps that cannot handle reactive loads. As for cheap amps, there is a reason they are cheap. Power amp reliability is not something to be cutting corners. Power amp failure can lead to catastrophic results including permanent speaker damage. Saving a few hundred bucks and then losing thousands of dollars replacing drivers and amps a year later is not a very good investment. Also the demands on FOH reinforcement are a lot heavier than DJ equipment. Remember that DJs use CDs that are mastered with no damaging transients. Pro audio FOH gear can withstand stray peaks, but the same will destroy DJ level gear. DJ is built for the tamed metro - pro audio is built for the wild jungle. Big Difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Also the demands on FOH reinforcement are a lot heavier than DJ equipment. Remember that DJs use CDs that are mastered with no damaging transients. Pro audio FOH gear can withstand stray peaks, but the same will destroy DJ level gear. DJ is built for the tamed metro - pro audio is built for the wild jungle. Big Difference. Very true. I guess as a DJ that uses pro audio gear for playing mastered CDs, I`m sort of double protected against equipment failure. Al Poulin - Party-time! DJ Services Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 17, 2006 CMS Author Share Posted July 17, 2006 Al, just an off-topic comment...do you know how to use the "quote" button to auto-format your replies that will use some or all of another poster's reply? I've noticed that you seem to be cutting and pasting the text and sometimes it's not obvious that the words aren't yours. If you click the "quote" button at the bottom right of the post you want to quote, it'll format the quote with who wrote it. I'm sure you've seen this, but didn't know if maybe you didn't know how to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by Craigv Al, just an off-topic comment...do you know how to use the "quote" button to auto-format your replies that will use some or all of another poster's reply? I've noticed that you seem to be cutting and pasting the text and sometimes it's not obvious that the words aren't yours. If you click the "quote" button at the bottom right of the post you want to quote, it'll format the quote with who wrote it. I'm sure you've seen this, but didn't know if maybe you didn't know how to do so. I do use the quote button. I think what happens is sometimes I will accidentally erase the first line while I'm trying to keep the important info from the original message I`m quoting. When I do post my reply you don`t always see the name of the person who originally posted because of this. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I`ll be more careful in the future. Al Poulin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madjack Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by The Real MC As for cheap amps, there is a reason they are cheap. Power amp reliability is not something to be cutting corners. Power amp failure can lead to catastrophic results including permanent speaker damage. Saving a few hundred bucks and then losing thousands of dollars replacing drivers and amps a year later is not a very good investment. That's for damn sure. I purchased a used amp to drive four monitors. The amp worked fine for a couple of months and then went down, taking four EV12Ls with it. There went over $400 in recones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mparsons Posted July 17, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Thanks for all the advice! Looks like I'll be ordering a QSC RMX1850HD... now just got to decide on a mixer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by mparsons Thanks for all the advice! Looks like I'll be ordering a QSC RMX1850HD... now just got to decide on a mixer! Don't forget the crossover! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mparsons Posted July 17, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 the what now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 17, 2006 CMS Author Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by Al Poulin I do use the quote button. I think what happens is sometimes I will accidentally erase the first line while I'm trying to keep the important info from the original message I`m quoting. When I do post my reply you don`t always see the name of the person who originally posted because of this. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I`ll be more careful in the future. Al Poulin Yup, that's exactly what happened in your previous post....the closing html tags are visible. I just wasn't sure what you were doing or if you knew about the quote-amater:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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