Controlling Stage Volume?!?!?!?!?!??@?#@#@?##?

[WynnD]

I'm a big fan of exciting music. I just don't believe volume is a requirement.

[W. M. Hellinger]

Happened to us once. Corporate holiday party, plenty of places to talk to one another, but the person in charge wanted us to play quietly so people could talk. Completely killed the mood and the crowd thinned. People weren't leaving because it was too loud, they were leaving because it was a snoozefest and didn't sound very good because the back-line was pretty much all that was "on".

 

Which gets to the point of one of my specific interests in this thread, and I believe relates well to the OP topic:

 

See, I'm coming to find that: "didn't sound very good because the back-line was pretty much all that was "on"." puts the sound right in the ditch, especially if the dance floor is empty (we've made this same mistake too).

 

Here's the scenario that I believe might happen to many of us playing to multigenerational audiences:

 

Somebody (many bodies) think it's too loud... for whatever reason:

 

1) LIC who can't read the crowd, and/or:

2) the wrong band was hired for the event (and it could be arguable that maybe the event isn't really live band suitable), and/or:

3) tables of folks who haven't seen each other in years, all with full bellies, and they want to sit and talk if that obnoxious band would turn down, and/or

4) they aren't into the genre, and/or

5) they're wanting to go home and sleep and the bang, bang, bang is making their head hurt... whatever?

 

So they pitch a bitch to the soundperson... but the soundperson has realized the situation already and basically only has the vocals and maybe a little kick going through the FOH system. And... the band's been trying to motivate the passive crowd... but instead of turning down... they've cranked it up (if it won't move hitting it with a rock, then get a bigger ROCK) and have been pleading with the soundperson to TURN UP THE MONITORS. So... after a few bitches to the soundperson from the patriarchs of the crowd that it's too damn loud, and a group of dowers leave in a huff (after some curt words to the LIC) and the LIC gets fairly direct to the soundperson about how it's gonna be... the soundperson drops the FOH some more, and some more... until it's basically nothing but backline and monitors going out to the crowd... and the sound completely sucks... and probably functionally it sounds louder to the remaining crowd as compared to earlier in the evening... before the band attempted to breath some life into the party... back when there was a good balance between the FOH system and stage volume, but now the sound is basically a splatter of reflected and bad phase mix of monitors and backline gear making it out to the crowd... so the sound has no life or definition to it... it's just rude and loud sounding cause the room's emptied out and the mix is awful... and all that's left of the crowd are the LIC and some party animals from "up The Benewah" and the LIC never liked those Benewah party animals... and the band's driven off all the folks she was trying to impress... and the event (and the LIC's reputation) has turned into a disaster (and the band's name is MUD).

 

Anyway... I've seen the *above* over & over. Hence, my interest in how to get the sound to a perceived "right" volume for those who are willing to pay for good entertainment at the perceived "right" volume.

 

I believe a key word here is PERCEIVED "right" volume... since 80dB of bad sound is almost universally too loud, but 90 or even 100dB of good sound (done tastefully, regardless of the genre) is usually acceptable

[hemismith]

Good music and good sound is what people want. Good music is up to the band and the customer; lower stage volume makes it easier to get good sound. Neither necessarily requires super high house volume despite what performers often think.

Sometimes it's just the croud. At many concerts I've been to, including Van Halen, I and my friends were the only ones standing in our area, and volume was definitely not lacking. There may often be a generation gap between the performers and the croud; some people have just lost a bit of their enthusiasm, or just don't like to dance (like me), but it doesn't mean they're not into it, and it doesn't mean it's not loud enough. There are many reasons why people leave events, but not loud enough is probably the least at most events aside from concerts to younger crowds. It's impossible to please everyone all the time; that's why it's nice if the venue is large enough for people to move to where the sound pleases them the most. At any rate, the paying customer bears most of the responsibility for pleasing the crowd, and technically they call the shots. But if an acceptable agreement on level cannot be reached then either the party ends early or they just never do business with each other again.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Like I said, we finished the evening. But we exercised our choice to not provide them our services any more - and that was a great professional move for us, as we gigged at many other places who did NOT complain.

 

 

Not returning is always an option. But while you're on someone else's dime, acting as you described (including your parting shot) is textbook unprofessionalism. You were getting paid, and you obviously decided you weren't returning. What would be wrong with granting their wishes? So what if it's not rock enough? The venue owner you cheese off tonite is just one more person who's not on your side in the future. People talk. You never know who can help you if you piss them off.

[OneEng]

Great thread. One of my favorite topics in live sound.

Here are my suggestions based on my experience .....

I hope this has been some help

[W. M. Hellinger]

When you hire a lawn/yard service, can you complain if the lawnmower is loud? Sure you can.... but lower than a certain level the thing stops working and your lawn does not get cut.

 

Great anology... but here's my take on it:

 

If you are running a lawn/yard service, but you're having a difficult time finding work because all your customers and your customer's neighbors have complained to you and the cops that your lawnmower activities are just too damn loud, well... you're faced with doing one of 4 or 5 things (that I can think of):

 

1) Get a quiter lawnmower, or make your existing lawnmower quiter, and/or

2) Get more selective about the types of clients you market to in your existing market and be content with a smaller client base, and/or

3) Market to a much larger territory figuring on burning a lot of bridges as you go, but finding more jobs that fit your motif, and/or

4) Reduce your price to the point where your clients can justify the down-side of your service to get the job done, which might involve basically paying to mow if mowing with your loud-assed lawnmower means paying fines and paying off the neighbors in the area, and/or

5) Get a really big lawnmower that is so impressive and does such a great job that the sheer monstrosity impressiveness of the machine is just part of the noise, smoke, and show... and then go lawnmower drag racing in big arenas where folks will pay to experience a big, loud, stinky lawnmower that mows grass like nothing they ever saw before, or:

6) Quit the business, or go to work for somebody else that can make the business work.

 

And... I can't imagine it would suffice to tell the customer they're gonna have to take it and like it with the mower blaring away because you can't get the type of performance you NEED from your lawnmower to do the job right (IYO) if you restrict the exhaust with a muffler.

 

Of-course, if you have all the work you want at the pay you want and in the working conditions you want... and your loud lawnmower hasn't proven to be a liability to the success of your business as far as you're concerned, then the customer can either take it your way or the highway.

[Danny (NS::U)]

Which gets to the point of one of my specific interests in this thread, and I believe relates well to the OP topic:

Now it's my turn to hurl compliments. That was a killer post, W.M. Especially the big block of text about everything going south in a hurry.

[sol-city]

Great post Mark. If it wasnt so long, I'd use it in my sig....lol.

On a side note, when management complains to me that it's too loud (usually because the backline is screaming), I'm polite, but show them the board, which, at this point, only has three or four faders even close to unity and the rest burried......deep. They usually understand at that point.

[rhat]

Great post Mike. If it wasnt so long, I'd use it in my sig....lol. On a side note, when management complains to me that it's too loud (usually because the backline is screaming), I'm polite, but show them the board, which, at this point, only has three or four faders even close to unity and the rest burried......deep. They usually understand at that point.

 

 

 

LOL>... is that before or after they start talking about their tone. The next thing they say is .. I cant hear you... all i can hear is myself.

[ear_saver]

Turning down makes so much sense for everyone.
You have to consider the band, their ears, and their demeaner the rest of the evening. Loud noises are disorienting, fatigue-ing, and irritating. I dont think anyone wants to antagonize these aspects for the band or the audience.
FOH has to be 10dB louder than your stage volume to mask stage monitors...I dont mind wearing my earplugs to shows, but Im not the only audience member..What part of the decision is it for the crowd not to show up because the band is too loud? Doesnt do much good for the venue, the sound guy, or the band. Who really hires who??!!
GO IN EAR, do it right and its not a hassle to set up. Enjoy your show, save your ears, and make the management so happy they pay you more for the crowds you bring!!!

[tlbonehead]

Get an electric lawnmower and you can mow at 8 am Sunday morning without disturbing the neighborhood. There will always be ways to get things done without pissing people off. I've never known anyone to leave because it wasn't loud enough. I have known some people to move closer to the band though. Isn't that what we want to happen? Everyone crowding close to enjoy the music better. Doesn't happen much with loud bands.

 

Most of the clubs we play wouldn't have us back if we didn't play at a fairly boisterous level. We are playing live rock to people who reason to be there partially is to see live high energy rock. Not the background thing.

[Al Poulin]

Most of the clubs we play wouldn't have us back if we didn't play at a fairly boisterous level. We are playing live rock to people who reason to be there partially is to see live high energy rock. Not the background thing.

 

 

I like high energy. I like loud sometimes but not all the time. I like dynamics. Dynamics are good. It's that change in intensity that gets me excited. For that to happen, and for me to get somewhat excited, it needs to be a certain level of loudness. Not the kind of loud that hurts your ears from excess mid frequencies, but the kind of loud that sounds so damn good and full, that you don't even realize it's loud. That good sounding, well balanced and somewhat loud sound gets me excited. And if there's some topless women in the audience, that doesn't hurt either. Al

[BigMac5]

I'm a big fan of exciting music. I just don't believe volume is a requirement.

Of course you need volume, the right volume. Which is the difficult part, the volume I like may not be the volume you like.

 

I like it loud, but what I consider loud may not be loud enough of too loud for other people. I remember going to see Fu Manchu at the Troubador in LA. That was the loudest I have ever heard it, a complete headache giving wall of mud. Of course they where selling ear plugs, I wish I had an SPL meter. You couldn't even hear someone screaming into your ear.

[Craig Vecchione]

I like loud. I like a LOT of dynamic range. I like to have my chest thumped by the kick drum.

 

But if the paying customer doesn't, for whatever reason, then I need to turn down until he's happy. I don't have to return, and he doesn't have to hire me back. That's a given.

 

There's nothing written that says I have to like how every gig goes. I don't have that right as a band or as a sound guy. The customer says what they want, and I try to provide it to the best of my ability. Sometimes you hit, sometimes you miss. But blaming the customer if you miss is not generally a good way to get more opportunities. And I'm not referring to the obviously stupid or impossible requests some clients make. Turning down...hell, that's the easiest one to accomodate. If everything else asked of us was that easy, this would be a cake job.

[tlbonehead]

I like loud. I like a LOT of dynamic range. I like to have my chest thumped by the kick drum. But if the paying customer doesn't, for whatever reason, then I need to turn down until he's happy. I don't have to return, and he doesn't have to hire me back. That's a given. There's nothing written that says I have to like how every gig goes. I don't have that right as a band or as a sound guy. The customer says what they want, and I try to provide it to the best of my ability. Sometimes you hit, sometimes you miss. But blaming the customer if you miss is not generally a good way to get more opportunities. And I'm not referring to the obviously stupid or impossible requests some clients make. Turning down...hell, that's the easiest one to accomodate. If everything else asked of us was that easy, this would be a cake job.

All very correct. If you know those things beforehand, you have the option of turning down the gig. If you get there and have to play at rediculously low volumes or jump through other hoops, you have the option of not booking again. But yes, while you are there playing for the agreed upon amount, it is your responsibility to try and play for the person in charge, unless it is something that is far off from anything agreed upon beforehand.

[coyote-1]

Yeah, people talk. We talked to other musicians, many of whom had played or heard about this joint and refused to play there.

Hypothetical silly scenario: if a clubowner hired you as the band and then told you each bandmember had to benchpress 200 lbs for the crowd or you would not be paid, would the customer still be right?

I'm talking basic agreement and common understanding. A club manager who tells a band hired to play rock music that they should be whisper-quiet is, unless that was stated prior to hiring the band, breaking the agreement. No customer has a right to do that. If you were an auto dealer, would you say OK if a customer said "I know I paid for that econobox, but now I'm taking the luxury sedan over there instead for the same price"??? A vendor has as much right to "know what to expect" as a customer has.

It's odd that a guy who gets paid by bands to do sound yet makes clear here that you are gonna run the show the way YOU see fit would take issue with that.

Wow. If that's how you feel, and that's how you run your business, I suppose you tell your potential customers what you just wrote? Because you should. To be clear. This way they know what it is you expect, and how they can expect to be treated. All for the priviledge of paying you. Not returning is always an option. But while you're on someone else's dime, acting as you described (including your parting shot) is textbook unprofessionalism. You were getting paid, and you obviously decided you weren't returning. What would be wrong with granting their wishes? So what if it's not rock enough? The venue owner you cheese off tonite is just one more person who's not on your side in the future. People talk. You never know who can help you if you piss them off.

 

[tlbonehead]

Yeah, people talk. We talked to other musicians, many of whom had played or heard about this joint and refused to play there. Hypothetical silly scenario: if a clubowner hired you as the band and then told you each bandmember had to benchpress 200 lbs for the crowd or you would not be paid, would the customer still be right? I'm talking basic agreement and common understanding. A club manager who tells a band hired to play rock music that they should be whisper-quiet is, unless that was stated prior to hiring the band, breaking the agreement. No customer has a right to do that. If you were an auto dealer, would you say OK if a customer said "I know I paid for that econobox, but now I'm taking the luxury sedan over there instead for the same price"??? A vendor has as much right to "know what to expect" as a customer has. It's odd that a guy who gets paid by bands to do sound yet makes clear here that you are gonna run the show the way YOU see fit would take issue with that.

If the owner told you that part of the booking agreement was that you had to be able to benchpress 200lbs (for whatever reason) and you took the gig, you'd better be able to each bench 200lbs.

[agedhorse]

The customer is always right IF you are doing what you and they agreed to do in the contract. You have obligations (if they have the right to control overall volume, you are legally obligated to do so) and they have obligations (like paying you for your services the contracted amount). It's basic contract law, you don't like it, then don't agree to do the job.

I have seen plenty of acts and sound companies lose some great opportunities over the years due to childish behaviour... in one case this opened a door to me that was worth a LOT of money in a contract that has lasted almost 20 years and is still going. I provide a service that is extremely tailored to this customer's specific and somewhat unique needs. They pay me well to do so.

[WynnD]

I like loud? and I like a lot of dynamic range?

 

Those sound totally exclusive to me. Unless you can take the group down to a whisper, you won't be getting much dynamic range. Loud and louder isn't my idea of dynamics.

[abzurd]

Which gets to the point of one of my specific interests in this thread, and I believe relates well to the OP topic

 

 

Lucky for us, in almost 400 performances over 7 1/2 years with this band, this has only happened one time. We always play at an appropriate level for what we're doing. It's really not hard not to read people. If they are moving way, wincing, look angry, leave, etc.... there's a really good chance it's too loud or some frequencies are obnoxious. Higher SPL's are tolerated if the source material and the sound itself is good.

[tlbonehead]

I like loud? and I like a lot of dynamic range? Those sound totally exclusive to me. Unless you can take the group down to a whisper, you won't be getting much dynamic range. Loud and louder isn't my idea of dynamics.

Ummm, what would you call the loud parts of a performance that had a lot of dynamic range to it?

[Dogoth]

Hmm a definition of "dynamic is in order.

Merriam Webster says

A: marked by usually continuous and productive activity or change

b: energetic, forceful

I'm thinking that in music definition A is the most applicable. Continuous and productive activity or change as in volume. Music notation even has terms that they call dynamics I.E. pianissimo and forte. The extreme ends would be written pppp or ffff.

I suppose that if you applied definition B to music "energetic, forceful " then it could be understood to mean loud and punchy.

I'll stick with definition A (that's what I learned in music theory class so many years ago).

Dynamic Range I'd say also denotes soft to loud (or visa versa).

my .02

[WynnD]

If we're going to use classical music as an example of dynamics.

 

Loud with an orchestra is 97 db. low with the same orchestra is around 55. There's a 40 db spread there.

 

If you're starting at 110 db (and at least one club here does that.) and your speakers max at 135 (not uncommon) that's only a 25 db spread. Sounds like you've lost some possible dynamics.

 

Now seeing that it's hard to order drinks at 110 and impossible to carry on a conversation at that level, (Even when shouting.) what makes you think that dynamics with a 110 db base would even sound like dynamics to an audience?

 

Music should be played with intensity. Don't confuse intensity with volume. They aren't the same. I've played rock and roll with intensity at jukebox levels. It can be done. Not everyone can do it and the band that can distinguishes themselves because of it.

[Tweeker50]

Loud with an orchestra is 97 db. low with the same orchestra is around 55. There's a 40 db spread there...Don't confuse intensity with volume. They aren't the same. I've played rock and roll with intensity at jukebox levels..

 

 

WynnD pretty much sums it up. Loudness and intensity may work together but exist separately.They are independent of each other and should be treated as such. Even a 25 dB spread with a rock band is good if the range is placed around 85-110. Above 105 or so, the ears compress and can't discern the changes as dynamics. And it hurts. And ears are permanently damaged more quickly.

 

Answer this question, when you listen to Zeppelin at background volume, is the music less "intense"? If you answer no, then you get it. If you answer yes, then I'm bringing my earplugs.

[Al Poulin]

There has always been more dynamic range in classical music that in rock or probably almost any other type of music. This is why when testing the recording capability of cassette decks (for example) classical music is often used. The dynamic range is SO big, that it is not easy to obtain optimum S/N ratio (when setting the recording level for example), and the limitations of recording devices and/or recording media are easily highlighted. Too much dynamic range is not a good thing IMO. Try listening to classical music in a car for example. You'll be constantly turning down the crazy loud parts and contantly be bringing up the ultra quiet parts. I don't know where I'm going with this Hmmm - I think dynamic range is essential, but maybe not 40dbs of it. A band where the members are all able to control the intensity of their plating makes a big difference I guess is what I'm trying to get at.