Controlling Stage Volume?!?!?!?!?!??@?#@#@?##?

[Dogoth]

As a hired house engineer I usualy don't have the luxery of telling a band to hit the road. Most of the acts I work at least have an inkeling of an idea about stage volume and if I stress it enough they will usualy try to comply.

 

That said I have worked bands who refused to turn down. I'm not so worried about my reputation but more interested in presenting the best show possible. After telling the band that It won't sound good if they don't turn down, I figure I've done my part and let them ruin their own show. To CMA I also of course inform the venue owners/managers of the situation (they trust my judgment). Sometimes this results in the money people relaying my message (money speaks much louder than I can) and sometimes not.

 

I have "babysat" a console (since you really can't mix effectivle) through some pretty lousy mixes (even had people walk out due to volume). It's not fun. These groups of course don't get hired again. Thank god this happens very rarely in my world.

 

FWIW the last several years I've been a monitor engineer and I do try my best to work with the FOH person (be they our in house guy or their BE).

[Craig Vecchione]

Assuming all band members are on the same page and come together for the greater good, what are your collective band tricks for keeping the stage volume as low as possible?

 

Drummer: tap, don't pound.

 

Everyone else: learn to move your hand counter-clockwise.

 

[Hawkeye]

This thread has been describing mostly the local scenes at smaller venues. Excessive volume is a problem with the national acts too. We took in Sheryl Crow's Toronto concert last night at the Molson Amphitheater. Sheryl can actually pull off the rocker-chick thing. She was in rare form and the band was really great.

 

BUT..... the volume was too stinkin' loud!

 

http://www.ticketmaster.ca/seatingchart/131073/10000

 

The seating capacity of Molson Amphitheatre is approximately 16,000. This includes 7,000 seats on the lawn, 5,500 seats under a covered roof, and 3,500 seats that are not covered. Our seats were only 10-12 rows in front of the sound console. I couldn't tell what make the array was, but it consisted of around 15 mid/highs in two arrays with four per side subwoofers with what looked like doiuble 15" drivers in each enclosure. A very visually impressive and capable looking rig.

 

It looks like Sheryl's gone with a full-time bassist for this tour, she didn't play). The bass was a subterranean wall of rumbling thunder. Try as I might I couldn't hear the notes the bassist was playing, just felt them. I'm a bass player and I could see which notes he was playing on the instrument, just couldn't distinguish them individually from the mud. The bass drum sounded like the war of 1812 was still going on and there was too much mid/bass EQ on the snare. All of this combined to form a kind of mid-bass noise floor below which you couldn't distinguish the individual elements of the band very well. Wireless handhelds (looked like Shures) were used by the vocalists.

 

The whole thing was quite muddy and the vocals were very hard to hear. My wife complained that she barely heard a word of what was sung and complained of how loud it was a few times. At this point, 15 hours later, my ears are still ringing.

 

So, even the pros have a bad day at the mixing board.

[tlbonehead]

This thread has been describing mostly the local scenes at smaller venues. Excessive volume is a problem with the national acts too. We took in Sheryl Crow's Toronto concert last night at the Molson Amphitheater. Sheryl can actually pull off the rocker-chick thing. She was in rare form and the band was really great. BUT..... the volume was too stinkin' loud! http://www.ticketmaster.ca/seatingchart/131073/10000 The seating capacity of Molson Amphitheatre is approximately 16,000. This includes 7,000 seats on the lawn, 5,500 seats under a covered roof, and 3,500 seats that are not covered. Our seats were only 10-12 rows in front of the sound console. I couldn't tell what make the array was, but it consisted of around 15 mid/highs in two arrays with four per side subwoofers with what looked like doiuble 15" drivers in each enclosure. A very visually impressive and capable looking rig. It looks like Sheryl's gone with a full-time bassist for this tour, she didn't play). The bass was a subterranean wall of rumbling thunder. Try as I might I couldn't hear the notes the bassist was playing, just felt them. I'm a bass player and I could see which notes he was playing on the instrument, just couldn't distinguish them individually from the mud. The bass drum sounded like the war of 1812 was still going on and there was too much mid/bass EQ on the snare. All of this combined to form a kind of mid-bass noise floor below which you couldn't distinguish the individual elements of the band very well. Wireless handhelds (looked like Shures) were used by the vocalists. The whole thing was quite muddy and the vocals were very hard to hear. My wife complained that she barely heard a word of what was sung and complained of how loud it was a few times. At this point, 15 hours later, my ears are still ringing. So, even the pros have a bad day at the mixing board.

That's weird. I've seen Sheryl/band (what a stunning band it is, especially Pete Stroud!) four times live and they were absolutely great every time. Sure they were big and loud, but very dynamic and never ear-splitting. And Sheryl and her band is a rock band, no doubt about it.

[witesol]

On a recent trip to Disneyland I was surprised at how poor the mix was for the band that popped up from the Tomorrowland stage. Usually they nail everything at Disney. From a hundred yards it was all subs, kick and bass. I figured I'd hear a fine mix as I got on axis. Nope. I guess that's what some engineers think is exciting: giant kick and bass that almost makes you ill..because you can. Don't get me wrong, I like to feel the kick too, but without singing and chordal stuff it's just poor..

 

convincing a band to tilt back their amps and use them as monitors as much as possible has helped me a lot through the years. I'll try every trick, angle and suggestion with a band or player first and finally give up if the level doesn't come down....which I hate doing.

 

Often it's simply a tone thing. I'd guess that a majority of too-loud guitar amps have a too bright tone, and I'll ask them if they wouldn't mind turning off the presence control or whatever. And conversely I can't even remember asking a player to brighten up his/her tone. I always inform the client(if it's that kind of gig) why things are the way they are. I go right to the singer and comment how well they sing, and "too bad we won't hear it because the bass is too loud", etc. When I see more than 4 cymbals I worry, especially 2 china cymbals. That means I'll probably hear them every 4 to 8 bars

[tlbonehead]

convincing a band to tilt back their amps and use them as monitors as much as possible has helped me a lot through the years. I'll try every trick, angle and suggestion with a band or player first and finally give up if the level doesn't come down....which I hate doing. Often it's simply a tone thing. I'd guess that a majority of too-loud guitar amps have a too bright tone, and I'll ask them if they wouldn't mind turning off the presence control or whatever. And conversely I can't even remember asking a player to brighten up his/her tone. I always inform the client(if it's that kind of gig) why things are the way they are. I go right to the singer and comment how well they sing, and "too bad we won't hear it because the bass is too loud", etc. When I see more than 4 cymbals I worry, especially 2 china cymbals. That means I'll probably hear them every 4 to 8 bars

I have been asked a few times if I can give the soundguy a little more highs to work with. But I always have my cabs up in the air on stage usually sitting on top of my drummer's kick drum cases so I have a good idea what my actual tone is. Most guys who are overly bright onstage are that way because their speakers are blasting them in the legs so that really aren't hearing the high frequencies much due to the lack of high frequency dispersion. So they add more yet to compensate, and then proceed to blister the front audience "and the speaker mic" with piercing treble.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I have been asked a few times if I can give the soundguy a little more highs to work with. But I always have my cabs up in the air on stage usually sitting on top of my drummer's kick drum cases so I have a good idea what my actual tone is. Most guys who are overly bright onstage are that way because their speakers are blasting them in the legs so that really aren't hearing the high frequencies much due to the lack of high frequency dispersion. So they add more yet to compensate, and then proceed to blister the front audience "and the speaker mic" with piercing treble.

 

 

On the other side of the coin, if you find yourself mixing a detuned metal guitarist, you may just wish you let him blast his legs...many of these guys will have way too much emphasis on low-end, resulting in a sound that competes with the bassist and causes a mud-fest.

[Hawkeye]

 

That's weird. I've seen Sheryl/band (what a stunning band it is, especially Pete Stroud!) four times live and they were absolutely great every time. Sure they were big and loud, but very dynamic and never ear-splitting. And Sheryl and her band is a rock band, no doubt about it.

 

 

We were in the 'sweet-spot', about 150' back from the stage near the center. Maybe everything sounded great back in the bleachers, but it was really, really loud. Yeah, good Rock & Roll but just a bit too much of a good thing. I heard Mark Knopfler's band at the same venue (seeing him again in July), in basically the same seating position and everything was clear as a bell, plenty loud and energizing, just not as muddy and boomy as Sheryl Crow's sound.

 

From the performance standpoint, it still was a really good concert. Yeah Stroud's a bad-ass player.

[witesol]

I have been asked a few times if I can give the soundguy a little more highs to work with. But I always have my cabs up in the air on stage usually sitting on top of my drummer's kick drum cases so I have a good idea what my actual tone is.

 

where were you these past years? I worked with over 400 musicians last year alone, honestly about 5 had a tone too dark for my tastes.

 

While I think that getting the amp up like you do is great, and allows you to adjust the real tone of the rig, it doesn't help the beaming effect and stage volume side effects as well as tilting. But if you nail it then great! Tilting a bass amp isn't an option most of the time..but subtly turning it can work well and often makes for a better monitoring situation for the band as well.

 

sometimes the worst offenders are the bass rigs with tweeters cranked. Had one @ my Saturday gig, an SWR Goliath rig with tweeter cranked and high EQ pushed too. It wouldn't have been that bad if the player wasn't so busy and 'played snare'(hitting the 2s and 4s) just slightly sloppily with the drummer. I politely asked then went up behind the amp and ATTN'd the tweeter. I gave him many thumbs up throughout the evening and he was all compliments for helping.

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

You could use a dB meter to help the sound person keep it where you want it.

 

That's a suggestion I've tried, but it was an exercise in futility.

 

We mostly play smaller venues of

 

When the stage volume is capable of being a really big fish in a small pond... the whole band needs to be reading the crowd... or error on the quiet side and let the soundperson compensate with the FOH system to taste.

 

I

[martingibson70]

 

How I play at low volume is with my wallet because I invested in the things that you mentioned E-kit and IEM and modellers. Keeps the BS off the stage and we can focus on being confident players and that fact I don't hire folks that think as a soloist trust me take years of audition and patience and being a rude asshole who dosen't put up with folks that think as a soloist.:poke:

 

 

I find it curious now that bands are still not taking advantage of technological advances in pods, edrums, and pa's.

 

Being a guitarist I love the way my custom built amp sounds at 7 or 8. There are tones, dynamics, and subtleties that don't come across at lower volumes. BFD though. If my amp is going to shake someone's fillings loose from their teeth and drown out an entire band, nobody will care about those "tones, dynamics, and subtleties".

 

Next time out for me will be with pods, edrums, and the new Bose tower pa.

[GTRMAN]

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same. IMHO, most good bands don't sound good because they're too loud for the space their playing in. Really, I'm talking about the ability and desire to listen and then, adjust. Because of stage volume "issues", I've chosen to not be in a number of "good" bands. Of course, one could argue that these are my issues, because I've tended to be the only one concerned. My experience is with typical bar band set ups - playing in corners of small rooms, no stages, lots of reflective surfaces. etc. In ear monitors and/or electronic drums are obvious choices, but I've not been in a band where the whole group buys this idea. The "mix and match" approach where some go in ear and others not, is too much trouble for these kinds of gigs. All bands I've been in allow 30-45 minutes for setup, so it's gotta be simple. And bringing plexiglass drum shields to Gerry's Gin Joint ain't gonna fly. The best sound I've experienced on stage are when using small instrument amps as monitors (facing them at the players) and if possible, eliminating them altogether (easier for keyboard players or guitarists using modelers). I'm also talking about real drums For those like minded whose goal is to keep stage volume as low as possible, how do you do it?

 

 

 

How do I keep my band's stage volume down? I use a 112 combo amp and my bass player uses a 212 combo amp.. My singer and I use IEM.

 

We're a hard rock band but when you're micing your instruments, you don't NEED a lot of speakers behind you..

 

When I run sound for other bands, the first thing I tell them is to keep their amps turned down. Only loud enough so the instrument mic can pick 'em up.. My theory is that if their amp can be heard clearly out front, it's too loud. Let the PA do it's thing..

[lonotes]

 

I find it curious now that bands are still not taking advantage of technological advances in pods, edrums, and pa's. Being a guitarist I love the way my custom built amp sounds at 7 or 8. There are tones, dynamics, and subtleties that don't come across at lower volumes. BFD though. If my amp is going to shake someone's fillings loose from their teeth and drown out an entire band, nobody will care about those "tones, dynamics, and subtleties". Next time out for me will be with pods, edrums, and the new Bose tower pa.

 

 

In my opinion (see dictionary for; worthless) I think that is at least in some amount, the effects of marketing. Nobody really *needs* a full stack to get that magical tone. But that's what you see on the stage at the EnormoDome, so that's what you must have. The first time that I went to the R&R Hall of Fame, they had an exhibit that included the 12" Supro(?) combo that Jimmy Page used to record the first two Zep albums. It was right next to the display of a huge stack of HiWatts, used on tour by the Who, at about the same time. The comparison was astonishing. I still have a hard time believing that Whole Lotta Love came out of that little combo. I mean, I do believe it because I've personally seen and heard the same kind of thing happen many times in studios, but the influence of 40 years of photos and advertisements create a disconnect in my brain bone. We have been conditioned to believe that huge cabs and stacks of heads are sexy. Little rackmount boxes are not. Now, all that being said, I don't feel that emulation is quite up to the sound and feel of a real amp, yet. But there are some pretty awesome low power amps out there, too.

 

I'm lucky, in that the guys that I play with, like to use 30-40 watt 1x12 amps. For myself, I'm using a 550 watt head and 4x10 cab for bass. But I would be in seventh heaven if I could convince my guys to go IEM. I would immediately shift to my recording rig, a Countryman type 85, for live use. It ain't sexy, but damn is it lightweight.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I find it curious now that bands are still not taking advantage of technological advances in pods, edrums, and pa's. Being a guitarist I love the way my custom built amp sounds at 7 or 8. There are tones, dynamics, and subtleties that don't come across at lower volumes. BFD though. If my amp is going to shake someone's fillings loose from their teeth and drown out an entire band, nobody will care about those "tones, dynamics, and subtleties". Next time out for me will be with pods, edrums, and the new Bose tower pa.

 

 

I guess the problem is that so many guitarists start at, "Being a guitarist I love the way my custom built amp sounds at 7 or 8." and never get to, "BFD though". It's as if their very being is dependent upon one, and only one, tone.

[GTRMAN]

In my opinion (see dictionary for; worthless) I think that is at least in some amount, the effects of marketing. Nobody really *needs* a full stack to get that magical tone. But that's what you see on the stage at the EnormoDome, so that's what you must have. The first time that I went to the R&R Hall of Fame, they had an exhibit that included the 12" Supro(?) combo that Jimmy Page used to record the first two Zep albums. It was right next to the display of a huge stack of HiWatts, used on tour by the Who, at about the same time. The comparison was astonishing. I still have a hard time believing that Whole Lotta Love came out of that little combo. I mean, I do believe it because I've personally seen and heard the same kind of thing happen many times in studios, but the influence of 40 years of photos and advertisements create a disconnect in my brain bone. We have been conditioned to believe that huge cabs and stacks of heads are sexy. Little rackmount boxes are not. Now, all that being said, I don't feel that emulation is quite up to the sound and feel of a real amp, yet. But there are some pretty awesome low power amps out there, too. I'm lucky, in that the guys that I play with, like to use 30-40 watt 1x12 amps. For myself, I'm using a 550 watt head and 4x10 cab for bass. But I would be in seventh heaven if I could convince my guys to go IEM. I would immediately shift to my recording rig, a Countryman type 85, for live use. It ain't sexy, but damn is it lightweight.

 

I'm doing sound for a band next weekend where the guitarist uses TWO JCM800 full stacks in bars...

[zbad55]

Just my 2 cents, I'm a guitar player also, and I never did understand the "Tone Thing". I have a 1977 Marshall MKII MV and 4x12Cab that I haven't used in 25 years and for tone you got what you got with my Les Paul. Sounds great but too loud and to heavy. I bought a small line 6 that I used for awhile but now I don't even use a amp. I got tired of lugging that line 6 around.

 

I bought a digitech RP350 and I think it sounds great, I run straight to the board and I couldn't be happier. The bars we play in, nobody has even noticed that I don't have an amp. So much for "Tone";), and to my astonishment the RP350 has an amp modeler of the 1977 Marshall JMP MKII, just like what's in my baement, and you know, to my ears it sounds just like it. We alays keep our stage volume and let the FOH do it's job, and our ears are also much better at the end of the night.

[lonotes]

I'm doing sound for a band next weekend where the guitarist uses TWO JCM800 full stacks in bars...

 

I'm so sorry

[GTRMAN]

 

I'm so sorry

 

 

They're paying me.. It won't be my fault if he's so loud that he's nowhere in the FOH mix.. Nor will it be my fault if they are unbalanced. I will SUGGEST to him that he pare down to a 1/2 stack and put one cabinet on "stereo" so he only runs two of the 12" speakers.. It's his choice on whether or not to listen.

[Gregidon]

They're paying me.. It won't be my fault if he's so loud that he's nowhere in the FOH mix.. Nor will it be my fault if they are unbalanced. I will SUGGEST to him that he pare down to a 1/2 stack and put one cabinet on "stereo" so he only runs two of the 12" speakers.. It's his choice on whether or not to listen.

 

I would suggest he brings it all and only plugs in half of one of the top cabs. This will accomplish getting the speakers up higher where he can hear them while presenting the visually impressive look.

[germs]

I think there's a lot of insight here. As a guitar player and soundguy for hire, I find that most bands either get this concept, or they don't.

 

That said, we combat stage volume by simply using smaller rigs. I've never had to lug around more than a 4x12 and head; but in the last few years, I've been using a solid-state 2x12 (as does my other guitar player). Get the amp up on an angled amp stand, and there's your reference monitor right there on stage out of the way. Sure, I miss the sound and response of my 4x12, but my back sure doesn't...

 

Granted, you need to buy quality. A good quality 2x12 shouldn't have to go up past 3 or 4 on the dial to give you all the stage volume you could need. Most bands don't get the concept of "Public Address" and therefore don't get past the stage of playing {censored}ty dives.

 

The key to keeping stage volume down from a "professional" standpoint is simple. Just let the band know that the loud stage volume will make people leave. If they cannot understand this concept and "politely refuse" to turn down, then they won't have another gig from me (Unless they are willing to pay a little extra for the next time, and some do...). Besides, that's what ear plugs are for, right?

[lonotes]

I have a friend that brings two full stacks onstage as well. Complete with plexiglas shields, each shield covers three of the four spaces in each cab. the upper left, in each cab is then miced. Total of four mics on this rig, even in small clubs. He never seems to have a problem with volume though, even though he's playing in a metal band. The thing is, all four cabs are completely empty. Not a single driver among them. Even the two heads are dummies, completely empty. The only functional part is the pilot lights. The mics arent connected to anything either. It's all stage prop. His total sound comes from a pair of Peavey Bandits, miced up offstage.

[GCDEF]

 

I have been asked a few times if I can give the soundguy a little more highs to work with. But I always have my cabs up in the air on stage usually sitting on top of my drummer's kick drum cases so I have a good idea what my actual tone is. Most guys who are overly bright onstage are that way because their speakers are blasting them in the legs so that really aren't hearing the high frequencies much due to the lack of high frequency dispersion. So they add more yet to compensate, and then proceed to blister the front audience "and the speaker mic" with piercing treble.

 

The other theory I have about guitarists with really piercing tone is that they're probably suffering from high frequency hearing loss. What sounds really shrill to us sounds good to them because they can't hear the highs as well.

[agedhorse]

 

The other theory I have about guitarists with really piercing tone is that they're probably suffering from high frequency hearing loss. What sounds really shrill to us sounds good to them because they can't hear the highs as well.

 

 

This certainly plays into the equation.

[martingibson70]

 

...We have been conditioned to believe that huge cabs and stacks of heads are sexy. Little rackmount boxes are not... .

 

 

Agreed. It shouldn't take so long for someone to figure out that the guy with the little combo has the sweetest tone.

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

Agreed. It shouldn't take so long for someone to figure out that the guy with the little combo has the sweetest tone.

 

I've worked sound for Derrick Trucks... who plays through a tweeked mid