Members I was The Funk Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 I've read most of this thread. As a guitar player that uses lots of effect and as a soundman who has mixed in both stereo and mono, this is my opinion. I a medium sized (100-300 people) venue: You do not need a stereo amp. {censored}, you don't need a JC120. I don't care how cool your sound is in your bedroom, all that nuance is lost onstage no matter what. In a crowded bar...good luck. I'll go further. You don't need any more then about a 15 watt tube amp. pretty much ever, but even I bring out a 50 watt amp for outdoor shows so I can hear myself onstage. Anything more then that is both overkill and ultimately problematic. If you can't get you effects to sound good mono, then re-evaluate what you are doing. Why do you need them in the first place? If you love the JC-120 sound, my suggestion is to find an old Boss CE-2 and stick it in front of your JC with the amp's Chorus off. From about 10 feet back it sounds pretty close, and doesn't require a stereo PA or two mics for one amp. Then you don't have to ask the soundguy for special favors OR buy 2 $80 mics (a CE-2 should run about $80). Are you using ping pong delay? Why? Is it serving some purpose, or do you just think its cool? Just like in record production, break it down to mono. Is it still cool? Why not? Then its just "effect" and not musically additive. BE NICE TO YOUR SOUNDGUY!!!!!!!! He knows what you sound like to the audience. YOU DON'T. Talk to him before hand. Introduce yourself and shake his hand. That will do more to make you sound good then any amount of mics you could bring. Smaller amps will let you get more juice going before they ask you to turn down. If you want feel, and you want to turn up, cool. Just do it with a low wattage amp. Attitude doesn't help anyone. The OP came in here with attitude. Humility is key. We are all just trying to make some music happen. Everyone wants everyone else to sound good. {censored}ty sounding music sucks for everyone. Play your part. This is a collaborative effort. And don't be sarcastic to strangers. You are projecting how you feel about yourself onto them. Thats not cool ever. Bring yourself up rather then bring others down. Everyone, including yourself will feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AdamCh311 Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Which was my point all along, if the sound guy listens and communicates with the lesser knowing people then things will go more smoothly. And a lot of times, the people you don't think know anything might know more than you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted June 17, 2008 Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 Which was my point all along, if the sound guy listens and communicates with the lesser knowing people then things will go more smoothly. Correct... and, a general observation I've made over the years (in all walks of life): if you find that you're working with someone who is condensending, there's a good chance that person is possibly in over their head and the attitude is a facade covering up their incompency... and the reason for the tude is cause they already can't handle what's on their plate, and they certainly don't want to accomodate another serving. If you're in this situation, forcing the issue could turn into a bigger trainwreck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deeprig9 Posted June 17, 2008 Author Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 The point here is illustrated in itself, allegorical to WM Hellinger's post. A guy askes a simple stereo guitar question, and the rubber dicks start to wiggle and drip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 17, 2008 Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 And sometimes they are in over their head because they contracted for and planned for (including labor) something as represented and then got blindsided by something entirely different. Notice that it almost never happens that the event turns out simpler than represented. Part of the reason for being deceptful is that the bids come in lower and once somebody is into an event they are more likely to "grin and bear it". I did a show earlier this year where it was supposed to be a shared back line, all 6 simple acts (guitar, bass, drums and vocals) and 15 minute sets, 5 wedges, a dozen inputs. Well, the promoter doesn't show for an hour after load-in and the bands start to show up and each one has their own back line, some have keys, all start demanding things. I am alone as this gig was priced accordingly. I don't allow the bands to load in until the promoter (or his rep) shows up... he has no idea that he has put together a show like this and didn't understand anything about the back line sharing even though it's in his e-mail to me regarding quote. At this point, I can't possible handle the 6 set changes and sound checks by myslef... just not possible and my guys all took off for the weekend so they weren't in town and the promoter wouldn't pay any more anyway so the option was given to the bands that they could all hunker down and make the best of a crappy situation for all of us involved, or if they couldn't make it work then they could not play and just take the night off. The promoter backed me up since clearly he was the screw-up and we had a written/signed contract with 50% deposit already cleared. He told the bands that he hoped they would consider the situation and his screwups, and that I had every contractural right to just cancel the show entirely. I also told the bands that I would do the best possible under the circumstances but everybody would have to work it out amongst themselves and get along. 5 of the 6 bands decided to give it a try, the 6th band melted down, pulled the primadona thing and the other 5 bands told the 6th band to just leave. Once they got into the slim it down mode, it was a really good evening... for all 30 audience members in a 1000 seater. BUT, the bands had fun AND the sound was better than any of them had experienced before, even slimmed down. They also got to know the other band members who were somewhat local and they all had a good time. It wouldn't have worked any other way. So this "dick" took a really bad situation for 6 bands and made it a really good experience for 5 of the bands... who cares about the 6th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted June 17, 2008 Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 So this "dick" took a really bad situation for 6 bands and made it a really good experience for 5 of the bands... who cares about the 6th. Of-course. Sometimes the soundperson is the only level head within the local area code... and doing a heck of a balancing act to accomodate the artists on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deeprig9 Posted June 17, 2008 Author Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 I'd love to show up to a gig with my guitar and leave the backline to the promoter. Sounds like the original problem was that all bands started unloading their own backlines. Good for the bands. Sounds to me they didn't get the memo, yet showed up prepared. Sounds like one band may have actually believed the memo, but with no equipment but their personals, and didn't like what the admittedly moron promoter had to say about it. Sounds like you did a great job and made the best of the situation. But it's not Medal of Honor type stuff, don't get dressed up for the Purple Heart convention. You got paid a contract price for a service, the promoter {censored}ed it up, you told him how it's gonna be or you are gonna walk, and everything turned out fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted June 17, 2008 Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 I did a show earlier this year where it was supposed to be a shared back line, all 6 simple acts (guitar, bass, drums and vocals) and 15 minute sets, 5 wedges, a dozen inputs. Well, the promoter doesn't show for an hour after load-in and the bands start to show up and each one has their own back line, some have keys, all start demanding things. I am alone as this gig was priced accordingly. I don't allow the bands to load in until the promoter (or his rep) shows up... he has no idea that he has put together a show like this and didn't understand anything about the back line sharing even though it's in his e-mail to me regarding quote. At this point, I can't possible handle the 6 set changes and sound checks by myslef... just not possible and my guys all took off for the weekend so they weren't in town and the promoter wouldn't pay any more anyway so the option was given to the bands that they could all hunker down and make the best of a crappy situation for all of us involved, or if they couldn't make it work then they could not play and just take the night off. The promoter backed me up since clearly he was the screw-up and we had a written/signed contract with 50% deposit already cleared. whew, that sends shivers down my spine just reading about it. I can feel the stress right now..and I'm at home. I know that overwhelming feeling like there's no real solution except to try and finish the gig..somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members slipslick Posted June 17, 2008 Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 Actually AH, I believe you DO deserve some kind of outstanding award for "heroism". You certainly went beyond the bounds of the situation and "saved" the day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 17, 2008 Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 Because 5 of the bands were cool and realized the situation (and the bands were each promised a 50 min set but the contract was for a 3 hour show, 6 bands @ 15 minutes each plus set changes and intros and such) I accomodated them within the bounds of the venue contract. No way I was going to be there until dawn on my dime. That gets into "double-whammy" overtime which wasn't an option since I didn't have any help. Deeprig, where did you get the medal of honor stuff anyway?... and do you really think it's necessary to be rude to me? My comments you referenced had nothing to do with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BigMac5 Posted June 17, 2008 Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 Sounds like you did a great job and made the best of the situation. But it's not Medal of Honor type stuff, don't get dressed up for the Purple Heart convention. You got paid a contract price for a service, the promoter {censored}ed it up, you told him how it's gonna be or you are gonna walk, and everything turned out fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Neonfacelift Posted June 17, 2008 Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 I'd love to show up to a gig with my guitar and leave the backline to the promoter. Sounds like the original problem was that all bands started unloading their own backlines. Good for the bands. Sounds to me they didn't get the memo, yet showed up prepared. Sounds like one band may have actually believed the memo, but with no equipment but their personals, and didn't like what the admittedly moron promoter had to say about it. Sounds like you did a great job and made the best of the situation. But it's not Medal of Honor type stuff, don't get dressed up for the Purple Heart convention. You got paid a contract price for a service, the promoter {censored}ed it up, you told him how it's gonna be or you are gonna walk, and everything turned out fine. Your condescension is completely unnecessary. Agedhorse isn't looking for a pat on the back or anything. The guy's a pro. There's been a lot of talk in this thread about the right and wrongs ways to handle {censored}ty artists and crew. He was just giving an example of how to handle a {censored}ty situation professionally. I really don't think he's looking for validation from anyone. If anything, I think you should be taking notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 17, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 I'd love to show up to a gig with my guitar and leave the backline to the promoter. Sounds like the original problem was that all bands started unloading their own backlines. Good for the bands. Sounds to me they didn't get the memo, yet showed up prepared. Sounds like one band may have actually believed the memo, but with no equipment but their personals, and didn't like what the admittedly moron promoter had to say about it. Sounds like you did a great job and made the best of the situation. But it's not Medal of Honor type stuff, don't get dressed up for the Purple Heart convention. You got paid a contract price for a service, the promoter {censored}ed it up, you told him how it's gonna be or you are gonna walk, and everything turned out fine. Been in band #6 long? Don't expect to be treated well here if you're consistently going to be condescending. It's obvious you'll never see how your words and actions apear to others, or perhaps it's that you just don't care, but your insults are directed at most everyone here. And I'll remind you that these people were posting here to help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted June 17, 2008 Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 I have had disputes with DeepRig9 before in HC. In another thread he claimed to be a promoter and was very confrontational. I challenged him and he failed to step up to the plate. The best he could do was throw insults and curses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 17, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 This is now the second issue in one thread. There won't be a third. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Neonfacelift Posted June 17, 2008 Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 This is now the second issue in one thread. There won't be a third. Lay it down, Craig. Lay it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted June 17, 2008 Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 Medal of honor..Hmm..yea, I'd award the FOH MOH award. But until someone is faced with something similar they can only make comment completely unknowing of what that situation is like. Players in bands don't get it, even if they have to run their own sound. That's easy. The "that's what your paid to do" vibe doesn't fly. A one man PA gig can be some of the most difficult work I've ever done. But until someone experiences it I don't give much weight to their opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 17, 2008 Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 Yes, it's one thing to run sound for your own band, but try running sound for 100 different bands and see if the perspective remains the same. It's hard to please everybody all the time. Heck, this is one big reason why I would question the whole idea of polygamy... it's tough enough pleasing only one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lifeloverwg Posted June 17, 2008 Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 Yes, it's one thing to run sound for your own band, but try running sound for 100 different bands and see if the perspective remains the same. It's hard to please everybody all the time. Heck, this is one big reason why I would question the whole idea of polygamy... it's tough enough pleasing only one Tell me about it. Winston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 17, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 Heck, this is one big reason why I would question the whole idea of polygamy... it's tough enough pleasing only one It's why I vehemently oppose gay marriage. If I can save just one person from misery........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AdamCh311 Posted June 17, 2008 Members Share Posted June 17, 2008 Well, I'd have to say after reading that story, maybe I took the situation a little differently. I guess the guy had just decided that instead of listening to 30 different people and their needs he was going to only listen to the guy who hired him. Had everyone come up to him and said their specific needs, he would have been spending all night trying to make things work. I still think the guy who I talked to about plugging in the channel should have said something, so maybe he's the one I should take issue with. But, I had several issues with the organizer in general about the haphazardly way he did things. And changing the way things were being done 100 different times. I can see how it would be a good idea for the sound guy to not try and let things get away from him. But a simple handshake and hello, I've got things set up a certain way, if you need something talk to so and so and then he will work it out with me would have been nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted June 18, 2008 Members Share Posted June 18, 2008 You plugged yourself into the system and then tried to embarrass the soundguy during the show? You know nothing about that open channel or the PA system, and you could have done some real damage and ruined the night for the rest of the people. If you want someone to pay attention to your demands, then hire your own soundman who is familiar with your sound. You wouldn't tolerate anyone messing with your guitar rig, so where the hell does that give you license to mess with the PA? You crossed the line as far as I am concerned and were very unprofessional. If that had been me running PA, my crew would have prompty removed you from the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AdamCh311 Posted June 18, 2008 Members Share Posted June 18, 2008 So guy talks to organizer, organizer give the okay and its my fault that it wasn't communicated to him. I didn't try to embarasse him. It just happened. See this was my point, always someone else's fault, when the fault lies somewhere in the middle. Is it something I'd do again, no. Do I think I was in wrong for doing it, well maybe somewhat. I think the fault lies to the person who gave said I could do it without consulting the sound guy. I won't do it again, but at the same time 2 seconds of his time, or communication from the guy who hired him, would have fixed the entire situation. And just because you are running the sound doesn't mean you can say who's on stage and who isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stevie j Posted June 18, 2008 Members Share Posted June 18, 2008 And just because you are running the sound doesn't mean you can say who's on stage and who isn't. If the sound guy's gear, or gear he is responsible for is on the line, I'd say he has quite a big say on who's on the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lonotes Posted June 18, 2008 Members Share Posted June 18, 2008 So guy talks to organizer, organizer give the okay and its my fault that it wasn't communicated to him. I didn't try to embarasse him. It just happened. See this was my point, always someone else's fault, when the fault lies somewhere in the middle. Is it something I'd do again, no. Do I think I was in wrong for doing it, well maybe somewhat. I think the fault lies to the person who gave said I could do it without consulting the sound guy. I won't do it again, but at the same time 2 seconds of his time, or communication from the guy who hired him, would have fixed the entire situation. And just because you are running the sound doesn't mean you can say who's on stage and who isn't. The bottom line is that you tried to do the right thing, and thought that you were doing the right thing. But you weren't. The soundman may have been just as cheesed off as you were, or even more. That might explain his attitude. Or he may just have just been a jerk. But none of that changes the fact that in regards to the PA, he was in charge, and you did not have permission. Yes, two seconds of his time may have avoided the whole ugly mess. But it was still his gear, and you still did not have permission. Hat's off for the good intentions, but the implementation was still lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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