Hey Sound Guys... guitar question!

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Not everyone gets to be an astronuat when they grow up.

 

 

But those who do can tell you with absolute certainty that the center of the universe is not a guitarist.

[witesol]

 

Saying a player is mediocre isn't your job. You are either being hired by the band to run sound for them, or by the venue who's hired the band to entertain their patrons.

 

 

 

i think you're reading more into my comments than needed..and the whole "go make fries at mcdonalds" and "soundman you steal cables from" attitude tips your hat a bit as to your own attitude, sadly.

 

i go into every gig hoping the band is great and setting up as best as i can. but, sometimes after fielding some special request and accomodating it, you hear the results and think to yourself wow, that's the least this guy should worry about. so be it, you did the extra effort and it made little difference except to make the player happy. but, after a zillion of these efforts, you do get jaded. that's not to say you have a bad attitude about it. it's just that you so rarely see/hear results. I mix well over 100 acts per year,from kids first bands to grammy award winners. I'm not often surprised.

i listen to everyone who approaches with a request. most are reasonable. I can usually guess fairly well when someone has a clue, knows the request is valid and what benefits will result,vs some novice who brings their Antares pitch corrector or something.. once in a while i'll instruct my stage guy to plug into "channel 13" (my crew and i code for mic it then run the cable nowhere)

[AdamCh311]

 

Just a suggestion, if you had plugged something into my snake without ASKING me first and getting MY ok, there wouldn't have been anything there guaranteed. I also guarantee that you would have been the one who looked like the "bag"... and you would never play the venue again. It's a pretty simple solution really, and incredibly effective. Now, if I knew what you were trying to accomplish, I woudn't have had any problem doing this with a couple of channels but something tells me that there was some additional attitude that came along with the request, and maybe the request was more like a demand. Was the sound guy given the band info in advance, and what did he agree to provide? Was this one of several last minute changes or requests?

 

There wasn't supposed to be a sound guy at the gig. The gig was supposed to be only vocals/acoustic guitar/keys through the in house PA, which is what they usually run. I found out when I got to the gig there was a sound guy hired PA. The actual situation is a little more complicated than what is explained. But, you probably would have listened to me the first 2 times I tried to talk to you as well. I paid to play this gig. It was basically a program for people who haven't played with a group in a while where they put a few bands together and have a gig one night. If I paid to play the gig, and those funds where used to hire a sound guy, I have every right to have the guy listen to me if I was the one who directly hired the sound guy or not. This guy didn't know what he was doing in the first place. Sound guys who give a crap and know there stuff are fine, ones who think they are more important than the band and say that they are mediocre so it doesn't matter are worthless sacks of {censored}. I will admit I'm probably a mediocre player, but the sound guy was less than mediocre at running sound. I could have done his job better from the side of the stage. I also talked to one of the guys running the program before I plugged anything into the snake, the sound guy never noticed that anything was plugged into the snake that he didn't orginally put there.

 

Bottom line is, anyone who is asking for something on stage deserves more of an answer than just no. It doesn't matter their level of playing ability or anything else. You should have at least a 2 minute conversation on how things need to work, and why they need to be done that way. Too many sound guys think they hold the power and therefore don't need to explain anything to anyone. If someone simply asks about getting a stereo image, it doesn't take someone too long to say, "I run the system in mono," or "sorry, I'm all out of channels".

[AdamCh311]

 

i think you're reading more into my comments than needed..and the whole "go make fries at mcdonalds" and "soundman you steal cables from" attitude tips your hat a bit as to your own attitude, sadly. i go into every gig hoping the band is great and setting up as best as i can. but, sometimes after fielding some special request and accomodating it, you hear the results and think to yourself wow, that's the least this guy should worry about . so be it, you did the extra effort and it made little difference except to make the player happy. but, after a zillion of these efforts, you do get jaded. that's not to say you have a bad attitude about it. it's just that you so rarely see/hear results. i listen to everyone who approaches with a request. most are reasonable. I can usually guess fairly well when someone has a clue, knows the request is valid and what benefits will result,vs some novice who brings their Antares pitch corrector or something.. once in a while i'll instruct my stage guy to plug into "channel 13" (my crew and i code for mic it then run the cable nowhere)

 

 

Yeah, but people will also never learn how to use things right if they never get a chance to use something. Novice players turn into experienced players through what, ah yes experience. Perfect example, this guy didn't realize that most systems or at least 50 percent are run in mono. If anyone anywhere would have taken the 30 seconds it takes to explain this to him he would have learned something.

[AdamCh311]

 

Are you seeing what you wrote here? You say you understand that stereo imaging is bad in the majority of the room. Then you say that only hearing one speaker, do to it being the only one mic'd, sounds bad. What do you think happens when you put two mics on the cabinet, and the people on the left only hear one speaker, and the people on the right only hear the other speaker? This is no different than only mic'ing one speaker....most of the audience gets what you just described as 'kind of crappy'. But you seem to be seeking validation, not solutions, so carry on.

 

 

Yes, but if need be they can mix both the channels to mono and the entire effect will be heard, even if it is in mono.

[Deeprig9]

Are you seeing what you wrote here? You say you understand that stereo imaging is bad in the majority of the room. Then you say that only hearing one speaker, do to it being the only one mic'd, sounds bad. What do you think happens when you put two mics on the cabinet, and the people on the left only hear one speaker, and the people on the right only hear the other speaker? This is no different than only mic'ing one speaker....most of the audience gets what you just described as 'kind of crappy'. But you seem to be seeking validation, not solutions, so carry on.

 

You seem to have a very low reading comprehension for a moderator.

 

I understand now why the mix is mono, because left won't hear right and vice versa. However, my cab still needs two mics because there's two different sounds coming out of each speaker. Even mixed mono, it still needs both sounds, two mics, or it's not going to sound right, you'd only be hearing half the amp. Doesn't have to be panned, like in my original question before I was educated by the wonderful people of Harmony Central, but both still need to be in the mix.

 

 

Good luck dropping fries at McDonald's tomorrow, or cramming for a weekly lit comp quiz at night school, whatever it is you do to validate your own importance in this world, I wish you luck. Not because I know you need it, but because I generally wish for people to live up to all they can be.

 

Shalom, brother.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Yes, but if need be they can mix both the channels to mono and the entire effect will be heard, even if it is in mono.

 

 

It makes a lot more sense to use the mono line out to a DI, or put one mic on the amp, than waste two mics, cables, and channels only to sum the thing to mono at the console.

[BigMac5]

 

But he didn't like the answer he got, so he goes ahead and does something on his own? Doesn't fly any better than me going up and asking the guitar player to change the programming on his effects and he says no this is how it is and it's my guitar gear. Then me going up and reprogramming the effects while he is getting dinner before the show... I think the guitar player would {censored} a brick sideways, don't you?

I'm confuse, I thought the guy ignored him and didn't even listen to him.

 

Maybe AdamCh311 can clarify this for me. Did the sound guy tell you no, or just wouldn't pay attention to what you were trying to tell him?

[Deeprig9]

 

I'm confuse, I thought the guy ignored him and didn't even listen to him. Maybe AdamCh311 can clarify this for me. Did the sound guy tell you no, or just wouldn't pay attention to what you were trying to tell him?

 

 

That's how I read it too. This whole topic is getting into french fry territory, based on a single simple question that could have been summed up, and pretty much was summed up, on the first page, clearing misconceptions, tossing in some good info, suddenly there's debate about when the apple pie needs to hit the cardboard, or if the buns are thawed for the night crew.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I'm confuse, I thought the guy ignored him and didn't even listen to him. Maybe AdamCh311 can clarify this for me. Did the sound guy tell you no, or just wouldn't pay attention to what you were trying to tell him?

 

 

He wrote that the sound guy ignored him. He plugged in to the empty channel, and then did his best to embarrass the guy during the show.

 

Amateur hour, from both sides of the desk and stage;

 

1. Don't ignore someone who is trying to talk to you.

 

2. Don't plug in anything without permission.

 

3. NEVER embarrass anyone, talent or crew, during a show.

[Dogoth]

If you were willing to purchase your own 2 SM57s and stands (I'd also recommend a Z bar or attaching something to your amp), I'd be happy to plug them in and pan the channels (If I was running stereo). I'd still use both channels even if running the PA mono because (as you said), it doesn't sound right with out all of the signal being presented.

 

I totaly understand the "not having enough channels" part but I have a cure for that as well. When you purchase those 57s also purchase a couple of short mic cords and an XLR "Y" adapter cord. When you show up to the gig ask the engineer "Is the PA stereo or mono?". If it's stereo ask him to use both mics (and leave your cords and adapter in your cord bag). If it's mono, "Y" together both mics and ask them to use the combined signal into their system.

 

This should work every time.

[Craig Vecchione]

You seem to have a very low reading comprehension for a moderator. I understand now why the mix is mono, because left won't hear right and vice versa. However, my cab still needs two mics because there's two different sounds coming out of each speaker. Even mixed mono, it still needs both sounds, two mics, or it's not going to sound right, you'd only be hearing half the amp. Doesn't have to be panned, like in my original question before I was educated by the wonderful people of Harmony Central, but both still need to be in the mix. Good luck dropping fries at McDonald's tomorrow, or cramming for a weekly lit comp quiz at night school, whatever it is you do to validate your own importance in this world, I wish you luck. Not because I know you need it, but because I generally wish for people to live up to all they can be. Shalom, brother.

 

I apologize if I misinterpreted what you wrote as meaning you still expected a stereo mix.

 

Now what are you planning to do about the rude comments you made simply because I misunderstood you? And especially those directed at, apparently, everyone who has TRIED TO HELP YOU here?

 

For whatever it's worth, any job deserves respect. What gives you the right to feel you're so superior that you can use a job as a way to insult someone else? Those comments and attitude are an embarrassment.

[BigMac5]

He wrote that the sound guy ignored him. He plugged in to the empty channel, and then did his best to embarrass the guy during the show. Amateur hour, from both sides of the desk and stage; 1. Don't ignore someone who is trying to talk to you. 2. Don't plug in anything without permission. 3. NEVER embarrass anyone, talent or crew, during a show.

[bassred]

You seem to have a very low reading comprehension for a moderator. I understand now why the mix is mono, because left won't hear right and vice versa. However, my cab still needs two mics because there's two different sounds coming out of each speaker. Even mixed mono, it still needs both sounds, two mics, or it's not going to sound right, you'd only be hearing half the amp. Doesn't have to be panned, like in my original question before I was educated by the wonderful people of Harmony Central, but both still need to be in the mix. Good luck dropping fries at McDonald's tomorrow, or cramming for a weekly lit comp quiz at night school, whatever it is you do to validate your own importance in this world, I wish you luck. Not because I know you need it, but because I generally wish for people to live up to all they can be. Shalom, brother.

 

Does this mean he's gone?

 

Seems to me Deeprig9 wanted one answer and no other answers would do, so he got all defensive when his one answer was still being explained as the wrong one...

 

I would have no trouble putting one mic in front of your amp in the middle, done it before, you can get a mic and put it in front of the other speaker if it will make you feel better, but until you reign in your attitude chances are you aren't going to get to try it your way, it's pretty obvious how you come off and that is not going to win you any extra attention from the soundguy, chances are he will avoid you because you are bothering him and he has a lot more channels to worry about than your one or two... Do you have a rider? Are venues agreeing to provide enough channels for your needs as stated in paperwork that is presented before the gig date? when they are, you can insist on two.

 

How's that phrase go 'you catch a lot more flies with honey......'

[Deeprig9]

 

I apologize if I misinterpreted what you wrote as meaning you still expected a stereo mix. Now what are you planning to do about the rude comments you made simply because I misunderstood you? And especially those directed at, apparently, everyone who has TRIED TO HELP YOU here? For whatever it's worth, any job deserves respect. What gives you the right to feel you're so superior that you can use a job as a way to insult someone else? Those comments and attitude are an embarrassment.

 

 

 

You are the second moderator in the last hour that has called me out on rudeness. I have a problem with sarcasm and "one-upness". Sometimes it gets a hold of me. I apologize. I myself work a menial job as does my girl, sort of how black people can call each other the n-word, sometimes I feel it's ok to bring down others in jobs same as me, if that makes sense.

 

I enjoy the forums, and as advised, I've learned a new world of info from this thread alone. Thanks all, for the info, it is truly appreciated and will be put into practice.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I enjoy the forums, and as advised, I've learned a new world of info from this thread alone. Thanks all, for the info, it is truly appreciated and will be put into practice.

 

 

You're welcome, now let's move on.

[witesol]

I totaly understand the "not having enough channels" part but I have a cure for that as well. When you purchase those 57s also purchase a couple of short mic cords and an XLR "Y" adapter cord. When you show up to the gig ask the engineer "Is the PA stereo or mono?". If it's stereo ask him to use both mics (and leave your cords and adapter in your cord bag). If it's mono, "Y" together both mics and ask them to use the combined signal into their system. This should work every time.

 

 

although the Y cord would work, it's not a mixer. Y cords are made to split signals, not really combine them. you need a mixer to combine signals properly. you can get some pretty weird results. signals don't know they're not supposed to go up the other side do they

simpler suggestion is to simply put a mic with a bit broader polar pattern out front a bit centered rather than right up against the grill.

[Rick6]

I'm a guitar player, not a sound guy.

 

I love playing in stereo, using two separate amps, even though I have a JC 55which has the stereo features.

 

I use a Boss ME50 to create the stereo. It runs one side dry (or close) and one wet and, supposedly, the chorusing happens in the air of the room, not inside the electronics. Isn't that the way that the JC amps work too?

 

Or so I've been told.

 

I love the sound of the separation when I'm playing. It creates a wonderful spaciousness.

 

That was the good part.

 

The bad part is that apparently, all that chorusing in the air produces some signal cancellation and actually makes the guitar sound out of tune. Not all the time and not everywhere, but I can hear it now and then. I suspect that, at any given moment, somewhere in the room it's detuned.

 

So, one question I have is this ... assuming that the sound guy was cooperative and had infinite stereo channels ... would this actually sound good to the audience? Or, would one quarter of the audience hear a dry signal, one quarter hear wet, and some portion of the other half hear out-of-tune?

 

Rick

[Crownman]

Chances are it sounds great on the stage but doesn't come out that way in FOH no matter how the guy runs it through the system. I've done sound for a few guys that did something like this and all it did was make me need to constantly listen to the guitar and constantly change levels of the 2 channels to keep them from fighting with each other and creating some not so good sounds. This situation also kept me from being able to give the entire mix the attention it deserved. So, in the end, the setup that these guys just had to have ended up hurting the overall quality of the show.

 

I'm a guitar player and a singer as well as being a soundman for over a decade. I know what it's like on both ends of the gig and I always keep that in mind when talking to guys I'm working with. I took a few minutes after each gig to explain the situation clearly to each of the guys and 2 of them ended up calling me back a few weeks later to ask me to help them with a new setup that wouldn't have the problems. The one other guy acted like I had just {censored} on his shoes and stormed out all mad.

 

Guess which guy got one mic and only one mic next time I had to work with him.

[Dogoth]

although the Y cord would work , it's not a mixer. Y cords are made to split signals, not really combine them. you need a mixer to combine signals properly. you can get some pretty weird results. signals don't know they're not supposed to go up the other side do they simpler suggestion is to simply put a mic with a bit broader polar pattern out front a bit centered rather than right up against the grill.

 

A Y cord works fine. I agree it's not acceptable for active electronic's outputs but for dynamics (same model is best of course so that output voltage and impedance across the spectrum is about the same) it's OK. There is a slight loss of signal (and of course you've got to make sure your cables are all in phase).

 

For a low volume gig the center mic might be a better solution but on a stage with any volume at all I'd stick to close micing.

 

I agree it's not the "perfect" solution, I was just looking for a simple low tech solution for the OP.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I'm a guitar player, not a sound guy. I love playing in stereo, using two separate amps, even though I have a JC 55which has the stereo features. I use a Boss ME50 to create the stereo. It runs one side dry (or close) and one wet and, supposedly, the chorusing happens in the air of the room, not inside the electronics. Isn't that the way that the JC amps work too? Or so I've been told. I love the sound of the separation when I'm playing. It creates a wonderful spaciousness. That was the good part. The bad part is that apparently, all that chorusing in the air produces some signal cancellation and actually makes the guitar sound out of tune. Not all the time and not everywhere, but I can hear it now and then. I suspect that, at any given moment, somewhere in the room it's detuned. So, one question I have is this ... assuming that the sound guy was cooperative and had infinite stereo channels ... would this actually sound good to the audience? Or, would one quarter of the audience hear a dry signal, one quarter hear wet, and some portion of the other half hear out-of-tune? Rick

 

 

That's what I mentioned in post #22...the stereo image is confined to a relatively small part of the room. What makes the situation worse than just a poor image is that in some cases, you can't hear the far speaker at all. The problem worsens as you get closer to one speaker.

 

For a stereo effect for one instrument, it's bad enough, but if you were to mix the entire band in stereo and used a hard-panned technique (think of the early Beatles records), you wouldn't really hear half the band very well at all. Not all rooms are this severe, but it can happen to some extent in any venue.

[agedhorse]

A "Y" cable works for combining DYNAMIC mics because they have an output impedance that is high enough and they act like summing transformer secondaries (which is what you are really doing).

 

It won't sound perfect though, since each mic is driving a lower imedance than it was designed for, but may be acceptable.

[styxer06]

A "Y" cable works for combining DYNAMIC mice because they have an output impedance that is high enough and they act like summing transformer secondaries (which is what you are really doing). It won't sound perfect though, since each mic is driving a lower imedance than it was designed for, but may be acceptable.

 

YEAH throwing a couple Riff Rats in there won't hurt!

[Neonfacelift]

 

Each speaker is doing something different in one combo amp. It's not rocket science. To faithfully reproduce the sound in the PA, there needs to be 2 mics. Or, a {censored}ty option, one mic back off the amp to pick up both speakers, as alaska man said.

 

 

Yeah, I get that it isn't rocket science, but Unalaska said that one speaker in a JC120 is dry and the other is affected. That isn't true and it isn't the same thing as two speakers outputting a stereo signal. Don't worry, I get it.

[Special J]

No one has addressed the real issue at hand here. Nobody, with the possible exception of Andy Summers, should use that much chorus. Just kidding, it's your sound, I understand.

 

 

A "Y" cable works for combining DYNAMIC mice....

 

Dynamic Mice - great band name