Which Powered FOH Speakers and 18 in. Subwoofers?

[jasps]

As for 12s or 15s, do high quality 15s over 18s sound better than 12s over 18s, or just as good? Would there be any advantage to high quality 15s over 12s (like more volume)? I guess I just really like the look of big 15s on top . Thanks

12" mains will generally better match the HF polars.

 

15" can get too beamy unless the horn is crossed low.

[jwlussow]

 

Yea thanks Bears that setup does look good. I was actually just recommended the same setup except with NX750P's instead of NX55p's via PM. I'm still not quite sure which would be better, the NX750Ps (15 inches) or the NX55P (12 inches). I guess that's my main source of uncertainty at the moment, 15s or 12s for mains. I've gotten mixed recommendations on the matter. thanks

 

 

Either will work fine. You are talking pretty good quality speakers so worse case scenario will be some extra tweaking of the EQ. It probably really comes down to size and weight. In my opinion, you will be happy with just about any of the systems suggested. I'm a 12 over 18 guy but I wouldn't kick any of the suggested 15s over 18s out of bed for eating crackers...if you know what I mean....

[dgc480]

beamy? not familiar with the term sorry. Oh and Dcaster, I edited my last post to address to you as well b/c I just saw your post

[jwlussow]

 

beamy? not familiar with the term sorry. Oh and Dcaster, I edited my last post to address to you as well b/c I just saw your post

 

 

makes certain mid freqs stand out above the rest. That is my main problem with 15s over 18s. Sometimes (not all systems) the mids can sound unbalanced and sometimes they seem muddy. Good quality speakers and good quality EQ can tame the situation. If we ever planned on playing without subs, we might consider 15s since they can have an easier transition to a subless setup. We always use subs (even for duo coffeehouse type gigs that me and the guitarist sometimes do) so the 12s are perfect for us.

[jasps]

 

beamy? not familiar with the term sorry. Oh and Dcaster, I edited my last post to address to you as well b/c I just saw your post

 

 

All speakers have dispersion characteristics, giving some control over where the energy is directed (below a certain frequency, the sound is omnidirectional). At some point the woofer takes over the signal reproduction. On a 15" speaker, the frequency reproduced is usually too directional and can be narrower than the dispersion of the horn. 12's are usually a much better match.

[flanc]

 

Yea thanks Bears that setup does look good. I was actually just recommended the same setup except with NX750P's instead of NX55p's via PM. I'm still not quite sure which would be better, the NX750Ps (15 inches) or the NX55P (12 inches). Dcaster, I'm actually trying to go through a wholesale dealer, so Idk if rebates apply. I need to talk to him, but I want to know my {censored} first. I was going by musiciasnfriend prices. They've got the QSC HPR181i priced at 1329 a piece. So you like the HPR 12s as well? I guess that's my main source of uncertainty at the moment, 15s or 12s for mains. I've gotten mixed recommendations on the matter. thanks

 

 

I own an NX750p...I use it for an edrum monitor and it's great for that. With subs, I wouldn't want to hoist it on top at every gig. For a few more $$, do yourself a favor and get lightweight, but quality mains (like the PRX, EV SX360a, QSC K12, Yorkville Nx55p).

[Consume]

 

Bears, I have to ask. Why is Yorkville just not making a showing in the midwest? In 30 years of playing live and being very active in the live music biz I've only seen a couple of bands using Yorkville. Are they prevalent on the coasts. Actually, not sure if the west coast mentions Yorkville much either but it does seem to get play on the east coast.

 

 

I'm in Florida, and I see Yorkville gear all of the time. One of the local SR companies has a HUGE stock of Yorkville gear.... I mean... like 100,000 watts worth of gear probably. The guy spent almost $250K on Yorkville stuff.

[Bears]

 

Bears, I have to ask. Why is Yorkville just not making a showing in the midwest? In 30 years of playing live and being very active in the live music biz I've only seen a couple of bands using Yorkville. Are they prevalent on the coasts. Actually, not sure if the west coast mentions Yorkville much either but it does seem to get play on the east coast.

 

 

My honest, unofficial, and long winded opinion on this is that Yorkville is a good speaker manufacturer and a lousy marketer. They are owned by a Canadian company that is the biggest music store chain in Canada. It is the only retail store you can buy the product in if you live in Canada. So by default they have great distribution in their home turf. They have been doing it this way for 40 plus years. They have no idea how to sell to dealers and don't care to. This falls to the American distributor who runs their business on fairly short margins. Guitar Center will not carry Yorkville because the GC buyers demand a better than everyone else deal to sell product. Yorkville will not or can not do it so GC is out. So is Sam Ash, Sweetwater etc. So Yorkville is left with the little guy in the US. It is hard to do battle with the big marketers like Peavy, Yamaha, JBL, EV, Mackie, QSC, etc. If you were a small dealer with a limited budget and your choice was blazing a trail with a lesser known product or taking the easier path and buying the thing that your customer asks for because he has heard the name before, how would you spend your money. Unless I knew I could really sell a superior product to the big guys I'd play it safe and buy from the big companies. A company like Yorkville would take a back seat unless my customers started asking about it frequently.

Audio East started carrying Yorkville because we initially bought it for our own rental and production sound systems. The no fault warranty is a wonderful thing if you are renting to people who don't have a clue because these people will blow things up no mater what you give them.

We found out it really was a good value in other respects and started selling it on our website. We do a good business with Yorkville because we have a lot of positive experience with it.

It is very difficult for a typically under capitalized dealer to take a chance with something like Yorkville. We were lucky in that we fell into it through our rentals. If there isn't a factory rep in the Midwest working really hard to make dealers aware, and dealers in a position to take a chance. then distribution will never be great.

I'm not sure if this really answers your question but that is how I see it.

[Bears]

 

Yea thanks Bears that setup does look good. I was actually just recommended the same setup except with NX750P's instead of NX55p's via PM. I'm still not quite sure which would be better, the NX750Ps (15 inches) or the NX55P (12 inches). Dcaster, I'm actually trying to go through a wholesale dealer, so Idk if rebates apply. I need to talk to him, but I want to know my {censored} first. I was going by musiciasnfriend prices. They've got the QSC HPR181i priced at 1329 a piece. So you like the HPR 12s as well? I guess that's my main source of uncertainty at the moment, 15s or 12s for mains. I've gotten mixed recommendations on the matter. thanks

 

 

The 750's would work but they are a bit more $$$ and much bigger size.

[dcastar]

I own a pair of 122i's, 153i's and 181i's. For most gigs the 122i's over the 181i's is perfect.... when you need a little extra punch and vocal presence, we bring out the 153i's and use the 122i's as stage monitors.

 

The Yorkie's are great though... my dad's band has a full rig of Elites. So definitely look in that direction if you can't make the QSC's work.

[Shaster]

To the OP. I have used the NX750's on several occasions sometimes over a single Yorkville LS800P. Both the 750's and the NX550's have their uses. The 750's make a great drum monitor, and the 550's are wonderful for DJ and keyboard duty, and general monitor use. I personally like the Yorkville Elite brand better, but my favourite Yorkville product is the Unity brand (maybe out of your price range).

 

The NX750 is a little odd balance wise, only one handle - that may or may not pose a problem for you.

 

I can say that the LS800 kicks. It's not everyone's cup of tea but it sure does have output.

[tcheatham12]

 

Yo DGC480... your cost estimate on the QSC's is way off.... you're also forgetting the $150 mail-in rebates on the speakers. Takes about 4 weeks to get the money, but regardless... you'd be getting $500 back on your set! Rebate Link: http://www.qscaudio.com/rebate/rebate_10-2008.htm HPR122i Tops : $1800 w/ Stands and Bags. - $200 rebate = $1600 total for the Tops. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270356695628 HPR181i Subs : $2350 - $300 rebate = $2050 for the Subs. http://www.djdeals.com/qscHPR181I.htm Altogether : $3650 for a killer set of speakers.

 

 

 

My local GC was dealing recently and making room for the QSC K series... I got the HPR112i Tops at GC ...brand new, in box for $760 a piece and I am sending in for the rebate. So...total will be $660 a box! So...$1320 for 2. They are heavy but the sound is really amazing. IN MY OPINION, they seem to have a little fuller sound than the PRX. A little more low end or something? But then again, I don't know much I just know my ears liked them a lot! super clear!! AND... I just know that I got them for $660 a box rather than $900+ for the PRX!

 

Couldn't be happier!

 

Might want to check it out...

[modulusman]

I heard the QSC K10s today at my local music store. They sounded pretty good with recorded music.{this was with HPR181 subs} The sales guy owns 8 of HPR112 s and he said the K 10 will get just as loud. Nice and compact and light. They were listed at $699.00.

[Consume]

 

My honest, unofficial, and long winded opinion on this is that Yorkville is a good speaker manufacturer and a lousy marketer. They are owned by a Canadian company that is the biggest music store chain in Canada.

 

 

Didn't Yorkville start off as Traynor?

[dgc480]

Oh I didn't realize the QSC K series was out already. So they don't have a 15 in. main. The K12 looks sweet for 799 though! The frequency response is actually LOWER than the HPR15 main!

 

2 K12s w/ 2 HPR181is should do the trick, did I hear you say they were at GC? I'll have to check that out.

[modulusman]

Oh I didn't realize the QSC K series was out already. So they don't have a 15 in. main. The K12 looks sweet for 799 though! The frequency response is actually LOWER than the HPR15 main! 2 K12s w/ 2 HPR181is should do the trick, did I hear you say they were at GC? I'll have to check that out.

No Music Villa in Bozeman Mt. By the way The sales guy is also the the top local soundman. He likes the HPR151s better than the 181s. I do too. He said doing a side by side comparison that the 18s started crapping out sooner than the 15s. I think the 15s sound punchier.

[Rbts]

 

My 2 cents is that if you are playing hip hop with heavy keyboard sounds you will need the best sub you can afford. For your style of music I have never heard anyone complain about too much low frequency. I'd go powered because it is easier to set up and will cost less than a comparable un-powered system. especially when you take racks and cabling into account. This may seem a little unbalanced to some but I think you might like it and it would fit your budget. 2 X Yorkville LS800p 2 X Yorkville NX55p 2 X adjustable Speaker poles It will be under $4K with cables and it will give you good coverage and enough bottom end to keep your audience happy. You could substitute the JBL PRX512M for the Yorkville NX55p but that would cross the $4K limit by a few hundred.

 

 

I think this is a good idea.

 

I am not sure it is up to carrying a 400 seat room... but I don't think anything you can buy for $ 4,000 is going to be.

 

This will give you a thumping bottom end which you probably DO want, and the NX55P is a crisp clear top cabinet ( I own six of them ).

[Bears]

 

Didn't Yorkville start off as Traynor?

 

 

Yes, Yorkville Did and still does make Traynor gear. It is mostly instrument amplification. I think their Pro Audio gear has always been called Yorkville. At least it has been Yorkville for a long time. Same company never the less.

[RoadRanger]

http://www.informatik.uni-bremen.de/~dace/vb/yorkvillehistory.pdf

[Norton666]

 

Yes, Yorkville Did and still does make Traynor gear. It is mostly instrument amplification. I think their Pro Audio gear has always been called Yorkville. At least it has been Yorkville for a long time. Same company never the less.

 

 

They also distribute Art, Alto and Hughes & Kettner

[goldenpiggy]

 

It is usually good when you also state that this is your opinion. Some noobs going to see this and opt for a JRX118 over something that really IS much better. I do not agree that passive are more reliable and flexible. In my mind, I can add as many active subs to my setup as I want. It gets more difficult when you have to add amps and processors when adding passive subs. Better sound from passive is also opinion and can be misconstrued. It is fair to say that passive CAN give better sound but not as a rule. In my opinion, a high quality powered sub is much more reliable, flexible and will sound better then most passive subs.

 

 

Sumimasen! Left out "IMO." (Aren't we all "IMO" here anyway?)

 

I hope any newbie realizes that you get what you pay, and it couldn't be more true with pro audio. If one mistook my statement about passive subs and goes out and buy ANY passive sub thinking that just because it's passive it'll be better than powered since goldenpiggy said so, well, we have more to worry about than subs.

 

No doubt there are very good sounding powered subs. No arguing that they are fast to set up, convenient, easy to move, and foolproof. In my 20 years doing sound, I have used several powered subs in my rig, and I find that for the size of shows that I typically do (hotel ballrooms, ~500 people), I do not get enough low end and rumble from typical portable single 18" powered subs, no matter how many I use. It's just physics. The cabinet volume is not enough to allow a lower resonant frequency. You can add as many as you want; it ain't going to play lower. The speaker manufacturers had to compromise between portability, cost, output, and low end to keep within the price range.

 

Over the years I've used some very good powered subs, such as the EAW EP1 and the Bag End D18's. Now these are REAL powered subs. They go very low, thump hardf, and are extremely reliable. Their design and technology are vastly different than typical powered subs that can be bought at GC. Their prices are also beyond what most people are willing to spend. They weigh a lot and are not really "portable." So yes, there are powered subs that are truly magnificent. Never said otherwise.

 

I've also used crappy powered subs like single 15" and 18" Mackies that either self-destructed (cone came unglued on one, and voice coil melted in another), or rattled like toys. Don't get me wrong, I love Mackie stuff. They make great gears at affordable prices. Just not their single 15" or 18" powered subs.

 

In the end, if the OP wants to thump hard and low, I do not recommend single 18" subs, period. Powered or passive. He won't get what he's looking for, and you'd be misleading him to say that powered subs are better than passive. What's the point if he can't get the sound he wants? I say do it right, and do it once. Go with double 18's. Since there aren't many double 18's that are powered AND affordable (no, Meyersound is not affordable), you're looking at passive double 18's. From my experience, even just one double-18" like the JBL SRX728s, driven by a good amp and properly crossovered, will run circles around a couple of powered single 18's in terms of low end, thumpability, and building shakability (double 18's couple to the floor, walls, corners, stage, etc. much better than single 18's due to the larger surface area of the cabinets. And no, two smaller cabinets do not make the equal of one bigger cabinet. Just physics.)

 

If one uses a good crossover or processor such as Driverack 260, such a setup is more flexible than powered subs as you can choose the type of rolloff, filter slopes, dial in extra oomph and let the compressor worry about protecting the drivers, etc. I suppose you can use a crossover or speaker management system with powered subs, but why would you?

 

Pro audio is expensive, and it's not something you want to constantly

trade up." It is just better to get the right thing for the job in the first place.

 

The OP owes it to himself to go hear both passive and powered and different brands and models. I will say that just one good double 18" sub such as Grund GT3600 driven by a good amp (at least 2000 watts) will outperform two single powered 18" subs like the PRX in terms of low end reach and thump. Not as portable or easy to setup/tear down as powered subs. But life is full of compromises. If you want better low end and better thump, you chances are much better with double 18's.

 

Good luck to you, whatever you decide to go with.

[jwlussow]

 

My honest, unofficial, and long winded opinion on this is that Yorkville is a good speaker manufacturer and a lousy marketer. They are owned by a Canadian company that is the biggest music store chain in Canada. It is the only retail store you can buy the product in if you live in Canada. So by default they have great distribution in their home turf. They have been doing it this way for 40 plus years. They have no idea how to sell to dealers and don't care to. This falls to the American distributor who runs their business on fairly short margins. Guitar Center will not carry Yorkville because the GC buyers demand a better than everyone else deal to sell product. Yorkville will not or can not do it so GC is out. So is Sam Ash, Sweetwater etc. So Yorkville is left with the little guy in the US. It is hard to do battle with the big marketers like Peavy, Yamaha, JBL, EV, Mackie, QSC, etc. If you were a small dealer with a limited budget and your choice was blazing a trail with a lesser known product or taking the easier path and buying the thing that your customer asks for because he has heard the name before, how would you spend your money. Unless I knew I could really sell a superior product to the big guys I'd play it safe and buy from the big companies. A company like Yorkville would take a back seat unless my customers started asking about it frequently. Audio East started carrying Yorkville because we initially bought it for our own rental and production sound systems. The no fault warranty is a wonderful thing if you are renting to people who don't have a clue because these people will blow things up no mater what you give them. We found out it really was a good value in other respects and started selling it on our website. We do a good business with Yorkville because we have a lot of positive experience with it. It is very difficult for a typically under capitalized dealer to take a chance with something like Yorkville. We were lucky in that we fell into it through our rentals. If there isn't a factory rep in the Midwest working really hard to make dealers aware, and dealers in a position to take a chance. then distribution will never be great. I'm not sure if this really answers your question but that is how I see it.

 

 

Perfect. Thanks for the answer. I thought that it might have something to do with marketing and distribution. I appreciate the response.

[jwlussow]

 

Sumimasen! Left out "IMO." (Aren't we all "IMO" here anyway?) I hope any newbie realizes that you get what you pay, and it couldn't be more true with pro audio. If one mistook my statement about passive subs and goes out and buy ANY passive sub thinking that just because it's passive it'll be better than powered since goldenpiggy said so, well, we have more to worry about than subs. No doubt there are very good sounding powered subs. No arguing that they are fast to set up, convenient, easy to move, and foolproof. In my 20 years doing sound, I have used several powered subs in my rig, and I find that for the size of shows that I typically do (hotel ballrooms, ~500 people), I do not get enough low end and rumble from typical portable single 18" powered subs, no matter how many I use. It's just physics. The cabinet volume is not enough to allow a lower resonant frequency. You can add as many as you want; it ain't going to play lower. The speaker manufacturers had to compromise between portability, cost, output, and low end to keep within the price range. Over the years I've used some very good powered subs with single drivers, such as the EAW EP1 and the Bag End D18's. Now these are REAL powered subs. They go very low, thump hardf, and are extremely reliable. Their design and technology are vastly different than typical powered subs that can be bought at GC. Their prices are also beyond what most people are willing to spend. They weigh a lot and are not really "portable." So yes, there are powered subs that are truly magnificent. Never said otherwise. I've also used crappy powered subs like single 15" and 18" Mackies that either self-destructed (cone came unglued on one, and voice coil melted in another), or rattled like toys. Don't get me wrong, I love Mackie stuff. They make great gears at affordable prices. Just not their single 15" or 18" powered subs. In the end, if the OP wants to thump hard and low, I do not recommend single 18" subs, period. Powered or passive. He won't get what he's looking for, and you'd be misleading him to say that powered subs are better than passive. What's the point if he can't get the sound he wants? I say do it right, and do it once. Go with double 18's. Since there aren't many double 18's that are powered AND affordable (no, Meyersound is not affordable), you're looking at passive double 18's. From my experience, even just one double-18" like the JBL SRX728s, driven by a good amp and properly crossovered, will run circles around a couple of powered single 18's in terms of low end, thumpability, and building shakability (double 18's couple to the floor, walls, corners, stage, etc. much better than single 18's due to the larger surface area of the cabinets. And no, two smaller cabinets do not make the equal of one bigger cabinet. Just physics.) If one uses a good crossover or processor such as Driverack 260, such a setup is more flexible than powered subs as you can choose the type of rolloff, filter slopes, dial in extra oomph and let the compressor worry about protecting the drivers, etc. I suppose you can use a crossover or speaker management system with powered subs, but why would you? Pro audio is expensive, and it's not something you want to constantly trade up." It is just better to get the right thing for the job in the first place. The OP owes it to himself to go hear both passive and powered and different brands and models. I will say that just one good double 18" sub such as Grund GT3600 driven by a good amp (at least 2000 watts) will outperform two single powered 18" subs like the PRX in terms of low end reach and thump. Not as portable or easy to setup/tear down as powered subs. But life is full of compromises. If you want better low end and better thump, you chances are much better with double 18's. Good luck to you, whatever you decide to go with.

 

 

That was kind of my point. There are noobs here that might take your original comment to say that a JRX118 is better then a PRX718. Same thing might be said about my comments where a noob might think I'm saying a Behringer single powered 18 is better then a properly configured and powered Meyer. There are people here that don't deal in opinions. These are the engineers that know much more about the science of sound and electricity then most of us.

 

I only commented so that the OP and lurkers realize that much said here is opinion and not fact. You stated that passives were more versatile, sounded better, etc.... that is opinion but was stated as truth. My experience is just about the opposite. Good quality powered subs are more versatile and sound much better then most low to mid range passives, especially if they are being run by noobs.

 

I just didn't think there was a valid reason to scare noobs off of powered cabs since these noobs would probably get much better results by using them. The OP even commented on how your post scared him about active subs. In my opinion, active cabs is exactly what the OP should be looking at.

[Consume]

 

Yes, Yorkville Did and still does make Traynor gear. It is mostly instrument amplification. I think their Pro Audio gear has always been called Yorkville. At least it has been Yorkville for a long time. Same company never the less.

 

 

I remember I first saw Yorkville gear about 20 or so years ago, it was when they came out with those Audiopro 3000 amps or whatever they were. I've played through quite alot of it, and I like their Power Amps. I think one of my favorite cabinets has been the TX8 or something like that (2x15", 8" Mid, 2" horn driver. I thought they were great sounding cabinets....especially considering the fact that I really don't like horn loaded cone drivers - or 2" exit horns. The club had them mounted in the ceiling aiming down at the dance floor - about 30 feet overhead.

[RoadRanger]

double 18's couple to the floor, walls, corners, stage, etc. much better than single 18's due to the larger surface area of the cabinets. And no, two smaller cabinets do not make the equal of one bigger cabinet. Just physics.

If you are saying that two 2'x2'x2' 1x18" cabs placed together isn't as loud as a 2'x2'x4' 2x18" cab y'all must live in a different universe than I do .