Members WynnD Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 Great point Craig ... but shame on the band that doesn't check in with the people who hired them (i.e., the bar owner) periodically throughout the night to ask if volume is OK. The bands that wait until the end of the night to find out that management thought they were too loud are going to find themselves on the outside looking in alot more than they need to. That band was never going to ask someone if they were too loud. They had me asking for lower stage volume constantly. But they knew better. I warned them that the manager wasn't looking for a loud band. They didn't consider themselves loud. After I left the band, the male vocal who played bass through a 100 watt amp, got new equipment and was then playing through a 1000 watt amp. He always tended toward loud on any instrument he played. (And he played and sang very well.) They went from a bassist who they thought wasn't loud enough to one who was constantly drowning the rest of the group out. Not a good choice in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KF650SB1000 Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 Methinks the OP was a troll. He only made that one post.we scared him away with all this knowledge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Chinese Posted June 25, 2009 Members Share Posted June 25, 2009 Woah, Please don't get me started on this one. I will just say that I respectfuly disagree with the "gotta be loud to get good tone" theory. I've seen it done many times otherwise. Good tone is subjective, but I don't disagree. I can get great tones at a bunch of different Volumes. It's hard to quantify, but there's a definite feel when an Amp is pushed and how it responds. It's why I use an 18/37 watt head, as opposed to a 100 watt head. I'm a Sound Guy, so I understand the trade-off. I gto some really nice stomp boxes that became the core part of my sound, and I rely on the Amp less. However, for The heavy stuff, that's hard to do. Todd A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Chinese Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 I've never heard of such a thing. I cant imagine why that would make it sound any different either. IME it makes no difference to have them on the floor vs stacked on top of something. Explain this theory of yours?? basically an amp that ground stacked couples with the floor, which, just as with a sub, gives a more robust bottom to the sound. That, along with the fact that Guitar speakers tend to "Beam", gives a much warmer soudn to the Guitarist- problem being that the audience is taking the full fury of that instead. So the answer is to work on one's tone/stage vol to try and accomodate both. Todd A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 basically an amp that ground stacked couples with the floor, which, just as with a sub, gives a more robust bottom to the sound. While that is true, that's where the bass guitar belongs and you're stepping on their toes. Bass-heavy guitar tends to smother the spectrum and make it difficult for the rest of the band to sit in the mix. It may be a "style", but it ain't teamwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 That band was never going to ask someone if they were too loud.....They had me asking for lower stage volume constantly..... But they knew better..... They didn't consider themselves loud. Bands that can't / won't take a hint regarding their volume deserve whatever fate befalls them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 They're gone and the world is a better place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lifeloverwg Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 basically an amp that ground stacked couples with the floor, which, just as with a sub, gives a more robust bottom to the sound. That, along with the fact that Guitar speakers tend to "Beam", gives a much warmer soudn to the Guitarist- problem being that the audience is taking the full fury of that instead. So the answer is to work on one's tone/stage vol to try and accomodate both. Todd A. It's that "problem" that's the real problem...... Many players that think they need their amp flat on the ground for the "warmer" tone proceed to run too much treble because the higher frequencies are blasting right past the ears they don't have in the back of their knees and sticking 6k icepicks into the heads of the audience. Any of the low style tilt back stands or legs are plenty close enough to the stage to take advantage of coupling. Players new to doing it think it changes their "tone" because it's the first time they've actually heard their "real tone" with the ears on the side of their head. Our rhythm player used to tell me she didn't like the sound of her Hot Rod Deville when I pointed at her head because it was too bright. It took her a while to accept that that was what it sounded like to the audience when she put it flat and that she needed to adjust it. The fact that an 80 watt 4x10 is way more amp then we ever needed didn't help either and I always have hated how beamy it is at FOH. We played a Festival gig once where she had it flat on the stage and the lead players father came up to me at FOH to complain about how the rhythm player was drowning out the lead. When I said I wasn't hearing that and he turned around to listen, he said well you must have changed something. So, I walked over to where they were sitting which was right straight on axis with her amp and sure enough, right there, 60-70' from the stage her highs were drowning out the lead over a Vertec rig. The good news is, she just brought an Ampeg J20 today and the DeVille is going on Craigslist when we get back from tourcation. 18 watts and 25 lbs. Yeah baby!! Tilt backs rule! Winston PS Edit: It happened just this last weekend again at a BBQ festival gig. Her 4x10 was pointing right at me in the FOH tent and the provider tech and I were both whining about how loud she was, but when I stepped out of the EZ-up (and into the downpour) I had to go back and bring her up in the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 It's that "problem" that's the real problem...... Many players that think they need their amp flat on the ground for the "warmer" tone proceed to run too much treble because the higher frequencies are blasting right past the ears they don't have in the back of their knees and sticking 6k icepicks into the heads of the audience. Well... *that*, and I'm relatively sure that gound coupling on the stage of the instrument amp propogates body (and the resulting bone) coupling of the instrument amp. Ever notice how different your recorded voice sounds than what you thought you sound like? Unfortunately, it's doubtful that anybody in the crowd shares that same perspective... unless the PA is punching *that* out there... which would dictate having the instrument amp actually in the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Chinese Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 While that is true, that's where the bass guitar belongs and you're stepping on their toes. Bass-heavy guitar tends to smother the spectrum and make it difficult for the rest of the band to sit in the mix. It may be a "style", but it ain't teamwork. Depends on how it's done. I've haven't had complaints in my adult years as a pro level player. I have gotten many compliments on my sound. So it's not always a bad thing. There is no right answer for it, it's only an issue if it's causing a problem, like another poster mentioned here. When I'm working on my tone, I always stick my head into the speakers so I can hear what the audience is... I try to find that good space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Chinese Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 Well... *that*, and I'm relatively sure that gound coupling on the stage of the instrument amp propogates body (and the resulting bone) coupling of the instrument amp. Ever notice how different your recorded voice sounds than what you thought you sound like? Unfortunately, it's doubtful that anybody in the crowd shares that same perspective... unless the PA is punching *that* out there... which would dictate having the instrument amp actually in the mix. Very true. I got a nice education when I started Mixing Bands- It really changed how I selected my Guitar amps and such. It helps that I have a Divided by 13 head and Cab - The tonal balance is right, and the cabinet it a lot less beamy. My '65 Bassman ain't bad either, that cab is reloaded with greenback celestions. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Chinese Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 ...DeVille is going on Craigslist when we get back from tourcation. 18 watts and 25 lbs. Yeah baby!! Tilt backs rule! Winston PS Edit: It happened just this last weekend again at a BBQ festival gig. Her 4x10 was pointing right at me in the FOH tent and the provider tech and I were both whining about how loud she was, but when I stepped out of the EZ-up (and into the downpour) I had to go back and bring her up in the mix. The Deville is one of the WORST Amps out there - it sounds fine by itself, but my God in a band... The Other Guitarist in our band has one, loves it, but he doesn't realize he send ice picks into everyone's heads with that thing. I let him play through the '65 Bassman, which is a similar tone (but done right), and even he noticed the diff, so maybe there's hope!T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 Depends on how it's done. I've haven't had complaints in my adult years as a pro level player. I have gotten many compliments on my sound. So it's not always a bad thing. There is no right answer for it, it's only an issue if it's causing a problem, like another poster mentioned here. When I'm working on my tone, I always stick my head into the speakers so I can hear what the audience is... I try to find that good space. You're one of the few players who are conscious of that... I try not to over-generalize and recognize that there are some players out there who are aware of this stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boomerweps Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 Maybe they all need to watch more established bands playing on TV. I saw a Keith Urban concert on satellite and ALL of the amps were flat on their backs pointing up and were miced of course. Check out the grand ol Opry. The bands must use the provided stage amps and they are on those tilt back boxes aimed at the performer (these also have a function of closing open backed cabs and rerouting the back's sound to the front through a bottom port). Boomerweps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SirEsquire Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 Question: My 5-piece band (two guitars, violin, edrums - no sub, singer) only have two monitors: one for the front of stage (singer and violinist), and one for the "back" of stage for the drummer. What would be the best setup for us two guitarists: a) close together or b)on opposite sides of the stage. I'm thinking the first option because if we were to setup on opposite sides, then we would have to turn our amps up loud enough so we could each hear the other. But, if we setup right next to each other, then we could keep our amp's stage volume way down while sending through the 2 monitors and FOH. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 Unless you're mic'ing everything, I like having the rhythm instruments on opposite sides of the drums. If they're coming through the PA, that doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SirEsquire Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 Unless you're mic'ing everything, I like having the rhythm instruments on opposite sides of the drums. If they're coming through the PA, that doesn't matter. Yes, the guitars would be mic'd. I am mainly concerned about stage volume with us setting up on opposite sides of the drummer and not having our own monitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lifeloverwg Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 The Deville is one of the WORST Amps out there - it sounds fine by itself, but my God in a band... The Other Guitarist in our band has one, loves it, but he doesn't realize he send ice picks into everyone's heads with that thing. I let him play through the '65 Bassman, which is a similar tone (but done right), and even he noticed the diff, so maybe there's hope!T Looks like the Deville is already sold!!!!Are you going to be at Burning Man again this year? Winston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted June 26, 2009 Members Share Posted June 26, 2009 Yes, the guitars would be mic'd. I am mainly concerned about stage volume with us setting up on opposite sides of the drummer and not having our own monitors. A band I had many years ago had both guitarists on the same side of the drums. I did the basic setup and one day put the rhythm guitarist on my side. (He also took over the bass when I switched to keys.) From that day forth, the band's volume stabilized. By the third song, we were as loud as we were going to be all night. It wasn't loud. We could hear the crowd talking while we played. There were no monitors, no subs and only a 100 watt pa for the vocals. The organ was playing through a single 12" leslie at 70 watts and wasn't being pushed. The bass amp was a 100 watt combo. Drummer was jazz oriented with a nice touch. Both guitar amps were about 100 watts, but neither was loud. It was the quietest band I've ever played in. We were also gigging in a market of only 90,000 people, five nights a week steady. (Try that in the bar scene today.) The club size wasn't much different than the one I'll be playing at tonight. The audiences ability to hold a conversation was much better back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Chinese Posted June 27, 2009 Members Share Posted June 27, 2009 Looks like the Deville is already sold!!!!Are you going to be at Burning Man again this year?Winston Oh yes. Our Camp is called Transmorphagon, and we bring one of the few Live stages out there. This year, we're throwing a big party on Fri night in which Gravybrain, DMT, the Biggest Distraction, perhaps one other band will play. We're bringing out about 4500w of Power, EAW/QSC/JBL Sound System, a 12x24 stage, and a Scaffolding/Truss setup. Should be pretty good... Are you a burner? Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lifeloverwg Posted June 27, 2009 Members Share Posted June 27, 2009 Oh yes. Our Camp is called Transmorphagon, and we bring one of the few Live stages out there. This year, we're throwing a big party on Fri night in which Gravybrain, DMT, the Biggest Distraction, perhaps one other band will play. We're bringing out about 4500w of Power, EAW/QSC/JBL Sound System, a 12x24 stage, and a Scaffolding/Truss setup. Should be pretty good... Are you a burner?Todd Only in spirit till this year. I have a number of friends that go regularly but it's never worked out for me until this year when I decided to just blow off everything else and make it a priority. I'll stop by your camp and check it out. Winston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flip333 Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 There is an effective fix for speaker directivity. On the Gearpage forum, a man named Mitchell offered the "Mitchell Donut" which is a simple polyurethane #4 3/4" foam circle with a 3 inch hole cut in the center. I put these in front of my speakers as instructed on the donut thread, and found them to significantly reduce the laser beam of highs that shoot straight out from a guitar cabinet speaker. Most other people who tried this agree. The sound is still a little louder directly in front of the speaker, but it is not a death beam of high frequency. Anyway, I still point the amp towards the band and mic it with a E609. I probably could point the amp out to the audience without killing anyone. Check it out: Speaker Directivity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Chinese Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 Check it out: Speaker Directivity link no good...T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dark Ice Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 link no good...T I think he was linking to this pagehttp://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=137957&page=6 But I could be wrong. Steve. **EDIT**Looks like an idiots configured the webserver and it doesn't like external linking because mines not working either.Lets try this onehttp://www.thegearpage.net/board/archive/index.php/t-137957.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted June 28, 2009 Members Share Posted June 28, 2009 http://www.thegearpage.net/board/archive/index.php/t-470956.htmlhttp://jay-mitchell.com/dirmod.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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