Fixing Gibson SG pickup wiring

[Jazzer2020]

Quite a number of years ago I started to mess with the pickups on my SG.

I think it was only with the neck pickup but I'm not a hundred percent positive.

I ended up buying a couple of pickups to try out, but ultimately didn't like their sound
and switched back to the original 'exposed' humbuckers.

I have an extremely good aural memory for sound.
Before I started changing the pickups I was getting a beautiful, lush, full round tone
on all strings, and noticeably on the B and high E strings, which usually sound thinner
on most guitars.

This appealed to me for when I played jazz on the guitar.

After I finished messing around with the other pickups and re-installed the originals,
I immediately noticed that the G, B and E strings were no longer warm and full like they
used to be. They now had an 'out of phase Fender type sound'.
All the strings probably have this new sound, but it's most noticeable on the high strings.

I went back and tried to find the 'original wiring' diagrams for an SG and checked, and
double-checked my wiring. Everything looked right.

So here I am. I need your help!
Can any pickup expert tell me exactly what to look for when I open up my pickup cavity box?

What are the signs that I got the wiring wrong?
How can I fix this?

Thanks very much!











 

 

 

 

 

[Mikeo]

https://postlmg.cc/XXCRqGP6

[badpenguin]

2 hours ago, Jazzer2020 said:

Quite a number of years ago I started to mess with the pickups on my SG.

I think it was only with the neck pickup but I'm not a hundred percent positive.

I ended up buying a couple of pickups to try out, but ultimately didn't like their sound
and switched back to the original 'exposed' humbuckers.

I have an extremely good aural memory for sound.
Before I started changing the pickups I was getting a beautiful, lush, full round tone
on all strings, and noticeably on the B and high E strings, which usually sound thinner
on most guitars.

This appealed to me for when I played jazz on the guitar.

After I finished messing around with the other pickups and re-installed the originals,
I immediately noticed that the G, B and E strings were no longer warm and full like they
used to be. They now had an 'out of phase Fender type sound'.
All the strings probably have this new sound, but it's most noticeable on the high strings.

I went back and tried to find the 'original wiring' diagrams for an SG and checked, and
double-checked my wiring. Everything looked right.

So here I am. I need your help!
Can any pickup expert tell me exactly what to look for when I open up my pickup cavity box?

What are the signs that I got the wiring wrong?
How can I fix this?

Thanks very much!

Ok, let me preface this by saying I am NOT trying to sound like a Richard Head here. The term "aural memory" is laughable, especially "quite a few years" later. You may "remember" a certain sound, but time changes the way we remember things. You can remember basics, but nuances tend to fade away over time.

 

Now that that was said, here are two diagrams for Gibson wiring. One is the Modern: 2 Humbuckers/3-Way Toggle Switch/2 Volumes/2 Tones (guitarelectronics.com)

the other Vintage. 2 Humbuckers/3-Way Lever Switch/2 Volumes/2 Tones (guitarelectronics.com)

If your guitar is wired properly, ie: one of these diagrams, and the pickup has an out of phase sound to it, then you aren't following the proper color code, and the pickup is wired out of phase with itself. (This assuming you have a 4 conductor pickup, and have the 2 of the 4 wires backwards.) Guitar Humbucker Wire Color Codes | Guitar Wirirng Diagrams (guitarelectronics.com)

If the pickup is wired properly, and still sounds "thin", let's look at your setup. Have you changed amps? String brands? String gauges? How about cables or effects? If any of them have changed, then naturally, there is a change in sound.

Assuming everything is the same, and your hearing hasn't changed in the few years since playing it, (Which is normal for hearing to change over time.) then try adjusting the pickup heights and the pole piece heights. That in itself can have a dramatic change in the pickup tones.

Hope that helps.

 

[Jazzer2020]

3 hours ago, Mikeo said:

https://postlmg.cc/XXCRqGP6

Thanks Mikeo that's helpful.

Please see my reply below.

[Jazzer2020]

3 hours ago, badpenguin said:

Ok, let me preface this by saying I am NOT trying to sound like a Richard Head here. The term "aural memory" is laughable, especially "quite a few years" later. You may "remember" a certain sound, but time changes the way we remember things. You can remember basics, but nuances tend to fade away over time.

 

Now that that was said, here are two diagrams for Gibson wiring. One is the Modern: 2 Humbuckers/3-Way Toggle Switch/2 Volumes/2 Tones (guitarelectronics.com)

the other Vintage. 2 Humbuckers/3-Way Lever Switch/2 Volumes/2 Tones (guitarelectronics.com)

If your guitar is wired properly, ie: one of these diagrams, and the pickup has an out of phase sound to it, then you aren't following the proper color code, and the pickup is wired out of phase with itself. (This assuming you have a 4 conductor pickup, and have the 2 of the 4 wires backwards.) Guitar Humbucker Wire Color Codes | Guitar Wirirng Diagrams (guitarelectronics.com)

If the pickup is wired properly, and still sounds "thin", let's look at your setup. Have you changed amps? String brands? String gauges? How about cables or effects? If any of them have changed, then naturally, there is a change in sound.

Assuming everything is the same, and your hearing hasn't changed in the few years since playing it, (Which is normal for hearing to change over time.) then try adjusting the pickup heights and the pole piece heights. That in itself can have a dramatic change in the pickup tones.

Hope that helps.

 

Let me first address my aural memory.
I'm not saying I remember the exact sounds that I heard years ago. What I am saying is this.
Years ago when I first noticed the problem, I had the exact same impression, 'thin out of phase sound'.
Now several years later I am hearing the exact same problem; 'thin out of phase sound'.

I just checked your diagrams and Mikeo's and what I have for my wiring.
I have the 'Modern' wiring. That is, the outer tab lead from the Tone goes to the OUTER tab of the Volume (not the middle tab).
This is the same for both pickups.

I am assuming it is wired correctly?

Have you changed amps?  No.
String brands?  No.
String gauges?  No.
How about cables or effects?  None.

Assuming everything is the same, and your hearing hasn't changed in the few years since playing it, (Which is normal for hearing to change over time.) then try adjusting the pickup heights and the pole piece heights. That in itself can have a dramatic change in the pickup tones.

I will mess around a bit with the pickup heights and pole pieces but don't think it will fix the problem.
Do I have them oriented correctly?
Neck screws facing neck?
Bridge screws facing bridge?

If I recall correctly I didn't touch ANY of the wiring in the control cavity wiring.
Could I have messed up when soldering right at the pickups?
If I open up the pickups themselves, how can I check that the wiring is correct?

Thanks!
 

 

[daddymack]

I heartily and respectfully suggest you do not 'open' the pickups.

Many possible issues, some less likely than others.

More probable: How many leads come off your humbuckers? 3? 4? 5?

If there are 4/5 leads, you may have inadvertently 'coil tapped' your humbuckers. https://www.fralinpickups.com/2018/08/03/choose-correct-humbucker-lead/

Possible: Have you checked the toggle switch contacts?

Why? Because if they are not disengaging correctly, they can produce the sound you are describing...thinner, out of phase...basically, you don't get a discrete one pick-up tone, but both p-ups, out of phase.

Least likely: Depending on the age of your SG, the bleed caps may have degraded. I can't say for certain that this is causing what you are hearing [or, not hearing], but it can mess with your overall tone in strange ways.

If you could post a pic of your control cavity/wiring, that may be informative

[Jazzer2020]

3 hours ago, daddymack said:

I heartily and respectfully suggest you do not 'open' the pickups.

Many possible issues, some less likely than others.

More probable: How many leads come off your humbuckers? 3? 4? 5?

If there are 4/5 leads, you may have inadvertently 'coil tapped' your humbuckers. https://www.fralinpickups.com/2018/08/03/choose-correct-humbucker-lead/

Possible: Have you checked the toggle switch contacts?

Why? Because if they are not disengaging correctly, they can produce the sound you are describing...thinner, out of phase...basically, you don't get a discrete one pick-up tone, but both p-ups, out of phase.

Least likely: Depending on the age of your SG, the bleed caps may have degraded. I can't say for certain that this is causing what you are hearing [or, not hearing], but it can mess with your overall tone in strange ways.

If you could post a pic of your control cavity/wiring, that may be informative

Thanks daddy for your help!

I see from my few posts here that I need to be extremely explicit in my wording lest
I be misunderstood.

By "open up the pickups " I meant unscrew the pickups (release them) to look at the wiring.
I would never dare to get at the actual coil windings inside a pickup!!!
I am not Eddie Van Halen! 

I have 'opened up' the neck pickup (see photos) and can't see if there are 3/4/5 leads.
Should I investigate further? I don't remember how I installed the other pickups that I tried.
Whether I installed them at the pickup location or at the cavity location.

Just checked the toggle switch contacts. They are working OK.

Are the bleed caps the caps between each of the tone/vol pot controls?

Here are some photos of the pickup cavity and the neck pickup.




 

 

[badpenguin]

Ok, you have the Gibson standard 2 conductor wiring. Meaning an outer braded covering used as ground, and an inner wire for hot. You do not have treble bleed caps, so that's out of the equation, ( Daddymack used the term "bleed" caps for the tone control caps.)  and the only thing that looks off by your pics, is the neck volume. it looks as if the in and output of the pot is wired together.

Edited January 2, 2022 by badpenguin

[Mikeo]

Look how you have your caps wire and  look at the lug wiring in the video here.

FF it to 30 minutes in to the video if you'd like.

You might want to get a soldier sucker and some alcohol and a brush to clean up you soldiering too.

I have never taken my SG apart, or looked at the electronics in it. One of my SG is 40 plus years old.

This is a 50's style wiring I guess.

[daddymack]

dang...just looked and agree, just a 2 con/shield and hot, standard Gibson

...your eye, bp, was better than mine...it does appear in that pic that the Neck volume is mis-wired.... lots of messy solder/wire work in there...no offense, but as a [formerly] NASA certified solderer, I am picky....😉

[Mikeo]

1 hour ago, daddymack said:

dang...just looked and agree, just a 2 con/shield and hot, standard Gibson

...your eye, bp, was better than mine...it does appear in that pic that the Neck volume is mis-wired.... lots of messy solder/wire work in there...no offense, but as a [formerly] NASA certified solderer, I am picky....😉

I have been soldiering since I was a kid. I thought I was really good at it too. Then I took a soldier class with a guy that that taught soldiering for the Navy. Ouch. After looking at my work under  a magnifier. I failed. The government is fussy like that.

I have a Weller variable temp iron with a  digital read out now. It's pretty nice, but not used often.

 

[Jazzer2020]

1 hour ago, Mikeo said:

Look how you have your caps wire and  look at the lug wiring in the video here.

FF it to 30 minutes in to the video if you'd like.

You might want to get a soldier sucker and some alcohol and a brush to clean up you soldiering too.

I have never taken my SG apart, or looked at the electronics in it. One of my SG is 40 plus years old.

This is a 50's style wiring I guess.

Thanks Mikeo.

As I stated in a post above, my wiring (original) is different than the one in the video.
The cap leads go from Tone to Vol SIDE tab.
 

[Jazzer2020]

13 minutes ago, Mikeo said:

I have been soldiering since I was a kid. I thought I was really good at it too. Then I took a soldier class with a guy that that taught soldiering for the Navy. Ouch. After looking at my work under  a magnifier. I failed. The government is fussy like that.

I have a Weller variable temp iron with a  digital read out now. It's pretty nice, but not used often.

 

My soldering technique is very amateurish.
I also lack the proper tools to do a good job.
 

[Jazzer2020]

1 hour ago, badpenguin said:

Ok, you have the Gibson standard 2 conductor wiring. Meaning an outer braded covering used as ground, and an inner wire for hot. You do not have treble bleed caps, so that's out of the equation, ( Daddymack used the term "bleed" caps for the tone control caps.)  and the only thing that looks off by your pics, is the neck volume. it looks as if the in and output of the pot is wired together.

Thanks BP!
I looked closely at the wiring (I only did changes to the neck volume), the one with the ugly soldering. 
I am attaching some new photos from a better/closer angle. I think you will see clearly that the IN/OUT of the pot is NOT wired together.

There is an 'extra' piece of a wire that I left attached (short black). I recall leaving it (many years ago when I did the pickup swaps).
If you don't have any other suggestions, I think I am going to remove all the Vol wiring, clean it up as best as I can do and resolder.
But do you see any obvious mis-wiring now that would cause the 'out of phase' sound?

[badpenguin]

2 minutes ago, Jazzer2020 said:

Thanks BP!
I looked closely at the wiring (I only did changes to the neck volume), the one with the ugly soldering. 
I am attaching some new photos from a better/closer angle. I think you will see clearly that the IN/OUT of the pot is NOT wired together.

There is an 'extra' piece of a wire that I left attached (short black). I recall leaving it (many years ago when I did the pickup swaps).
If you don't have any other suggestions, I think I am going to remove all the Vol wiring, clean it up as best as I can do and resolder.
But do you see any obvious mis-wiring now that would cause the 'out of phase' sound?

There's nothing there that could cause the pickups to sound out of phase. The ONLY thing that could possibly cause that, and this is a stretch, is perhaps the pickups are placed in the guitar wrong. Like I said, it's a stretch. Are the screws in the neck pickup closer to the fretboard, and are the screws on the bridge pickup closer to the bridge.

[Jazzer2020]

22 minutes ago, badpenguin said:

There's nothing there that could cause the pickups to sound out of phase. The ONLY thing that could possibly cause that, and this is a stretch, is perhaps the pickups are placed in the guitar wrong. Like I said, it's a stretch. Are the screws in the neck pickup closer to the fretboard, and are the screws on the bridge pickup closer to the bridge.

Yes I checked the screws (mentioned above). They are as you described.

I just did some multi-meter testing.
Everything is as should be, except for one small deviance.
For some reason there is some bleeding between two tabs on the
bridge vol. pot. It's just .003K.
I don't know what's causing it or if is making a difference?

I don't think I mentioned it explicitly yet, but the only soldering I did was at the
neck pot, all the rest including the caps are all original.

[Mikeo]

2 hours ago, Jazzer2020 said:

Yes I checked the screws (mentioned above). They are as you described.

I just did some multi-meter testing.
Everything is as should be, except for one small deviance.
For some reason there is some bleeding between two tabs on the
bridge vol. pot. It's just .003K.
I don't know what's causing it or if is making a difference?

I don't think I mentioned it explicitly yet, but the only soldering I did was at the
neck pot, all the rest including the caps are all original.

Ya think your capacitor(s) went bad.

 It does happen, but I don't know.

[Jazzer2020]

40 minutes ago, Mikeo said:

Ya think your capacitor(s) went bad.

 It does happen, but I don't know.

It could be.

I'll leave it for now. I spent the day trying to clean off the vol. pot top and
resoldering, but I don't have a desoldering bulb so didn't have much success.

Put everything back together and it was the same sound.

When I have the time I may take it into a pro shop to see what they say
about it. Maybe change the caps. That's the only thing I can think
of that might make a difference at this point.

Oh and I managed to burn the side of my left index finger while not
looking at my soldering iron.  Ouch!!
It's be a few days until I can play chords again. 
 

 

 

[1001gear]

How are the volumes set? Specifically what happens with the bridge vol on zero?

[Jazzer2020]

9 hours ago, 1001gear said:

How are the volumes set? Specifically what happens with the bridge vol on zero?

Thanks 1001 for helping out.

I had my hopes up for that one.
Unfortunately it didn't help. I tried bringing the bridge vol. gradually all the way down (also its tone).

Then when I put the pickup selector in the middle position (with the bridge vol. off) and didn't
hear anything I thought maybe something was wrong with the pickup selector.

But I took out another guitar with two pickups, did the same, and it also cut out the neck pickup.

I'm losing options. I may try different caps later.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Jazzer2020

[badpenguin]

Ok, I doubt it's it caps. And the way a Gibson is wired, it's normal to have one volume off, and the guitar go silent in the mid position. (One volume gets grounded, so both pickups get grounded. Completely normal.) Way to fix that is to de-couple one of the pickups. Simple reverse the in and out on the ONE volume pot.

But back to main issue: let's take the pots out of the equation completely. Wire your neck pickup directly to the output jack. If the problem still persists, and after you adjust the height and pickup pole screw pieces, you have a rare case of the pickup being fried. 

[Jazzer2020]

1 hour ago, badpenguin said:

Ok, I doubt it's it caps. And the way a Gibson is wired, it's normal to have one volume off, and the guitar go silent in the mid position. (One volume gets grounded, so both pickups get grounded. Completely normal.) Way to fix that is to de-couple one of the pickups. Simple reverse the in and out on the ONE volume pot.

But back to main issue: let's take the pots out of the equation completely. Wire your neck pickup directly to the output jack. If the problem still persists, and after you adjust the height and pickup pole screw pieces, you have a rare case of the pickup being fried. 

Thanks bp.

I was going to try your suggestion of going direct from the pickup to the output jack, but I wanted to try the caps first
(it's also easier).

I have a bunch of caps lying around from old electronics projects I once did.
I couldn't find any .022 mF. The closest I had was .050 mF so I gave that a shot.
I wired it in parallel with the existing neck cap (I didn't want to cut the existing one straight away).

Bammm!!!!

I immediately got a tone in the ballpark of what I was looking for.
Gone was the out-of-phase sound.
There was however too much muffled sound going on. I like a bit (rolling down my tone knob for jazz),
but this was too much.

So it seems that my cap was going/has gone.
What do you suggest I do next.

Buy a new .022 mF?
I have this .050 mF ceramic as I mentioned.
I also have a .47 mF metal poly axial cap.
These are the closest I have to the .022 mF.

...

 

[Mikeo]

If you have to buy some caps, might as well try the .22uf Orange Drops.

You could try the Black Beauties or Bumble Bees, but they tend to drift in value and might not give you the results you want more.

 

Sprague Caps were once made in this town. Sprague's technically has not existed since the 80's. I met RC Sprague a few times.

Now it a huge contemporary art museum. Home of the Solid Sound Wilco Fest and Fresh Grass.

 

 

It gets crazy here for a few weeks.

 

Orange Drops, baby.

 

Sprague-> Penn Central-> Vishay-> ( now made and owned by) Cornell Dubilier

The secret to the Sprague caps is reliability, If it says it will take 400 volts, R.C. Sprague gave and extra 10%, like 440 Volts. 

 

Across the street from Mass Moca is what is now the Department of Social Services, bit at one time was the Sprague Research Center. I was in that building more than once and they used to give liquid nitrogen for lab experiments. A guy named Dr. Maher and a few investors bought it, and the eventually move to an industrial park in Adams Mass. Dr. Maher son started running the research facility and ran it to the ground.

 

 

That's all I know about capacitors.

[Jazzer2020]

1 hour ago, Mikeo said:

If you have to buy some caps, might as well try the .22uf Orange Drops.

You could try the Black Beauties or Bumble Bees, but they tend to drift in value and might not give you the results you want more.

 

Sprague Caps were once made in this town. Sprague's technically has not existed since the 80's. I met RC Sprague a few times.

Now it a huge contemporary art museum. Home of the Solid Sound Wilco Fest and Fresh Grass.

Orange Drops, baby.

 

Sprague-> Penn Central-> Vishay-> ( now made and owned by) Cornell Dubilier

The secret to the Sprague caps is reliability, If it says it will take 400 volts, R.C. Sprague gave and extra 10%, like 440 Volts. 

 

Across the street from Mass Moca is what is now the Department of Social Services, bit at one time was the Sprague Research Center. I was in that building more than once and they used to give liquid nitrogen for lab experiments. A guy named Dr. Maher and a few investors bought it, and the eventually move to an industrial park in Adams Mass. Dr. Maher son started running the research facility and ran it to the ground.

That's all I know about capacitors.

 

Thanks Mikeo for the suggestion and photos.
That must have been a typo right?

It should be .022 uF right?

 

 

 

 

 

[Mikeo]

2 hours ago, Jazzer2020 said:

 

Thanks Mikeo for the suggestion and photos.
That must have been a typo right?

It should be .022 uF right?

 

 

 

 

 

correct.

typo

.022uf is what you want.