To compress or not to compress..... that is the question....

[agedhorse]

I'll set the threshold so that only the very quietest notes are below threshold. I also EQ the sidechain, either a low cut (to get rig of proximity effect) or a high mid boost (to accentuate the presense peak) - which ever is most effective (if I'm using an outboard EQ, I often do both).

 

[witesol]

I'm not sure how compression can change "stage wash" whatsoever. Am i missing something? ...performers will need the level they will need. Also side chaining through an EQ for proximity? seems complicated..

[jasps]

Maybe we should change the word from "compression" to "dynamic range management" as compression is more of a single flavor. Compression and limiting are both used to manage dynamic range. Limiting usually to protect and compression to affect tone ... but the words are somewhat interchangeable. To greatly simplify... With inputs that have a high peak to average ratio eg bass guitar, kick drum, snare drum, tambourine, etc the "loudness" you hear is the average level ... but your system will crap out due to the peak level (usually). So you can squeeze down the dynamic range allowing you to raise the average level without causing objectionable distortion. Usually a little bit is unnoticeable but as you add more you begin to hear it ... eventually you've changed the sound enough that the tone has gone bad. As far as straight protection ... you can use it to limit voltage output. Maybe you have a input that you want squished so as to remove some prominence from it ... background singer, second or third rhythm guitar, whatever ... that's a job for compression. Pretty common in recording ... but in live sound you are trading one problem for another. It will bring up background wash making everything less clear and it will reduce your gain before feedback. I standardly have limiters in systems to protect ... but rarely use compression unless there is no other way (which there usually is)

 

 

One way I use compression in terms of a MIX (not system) is to get a cleaner/punchier mix by bringing the crap I don't need in a mix, down. For instance, I will sometimes compress the snare drum, but I don't try to squash the initial transient; instead, I'll set the compressor attack time to compress after the transient has passed so I get the impact, but the decay of the drum will be brought down by the set threshold and ratio values.

[dboomer]

I'm not sure how compression can change "stage wash" whatsoever. Am i missing something?

 

 

Do you think TV commercials are loud? Well they are no higher in amplitude than the rest of the show ...but they are much higher in average level.

 

So when you bring up the average level, the quieter stuff comes up too ... witness the breathing sounds by the announcers in those TV ads.

[agedhorse]

So when you bring up the average level, the quieter stuff comes up too ... witness the breathing sounds by the announcers in those TV ads.

and the occassional fart that sneaks into the mix

[witesol]

Do you think TV commercials are loud? Well they are no higher in amplitude than the rest of the show ...but they are much higher in average level. So when you bring up the average level, the quieter stuff comes up too ... witness the breathing sounds by the announcers in those TV ads.

 

 

I'm not sure that's the best analogy Don..

I'm familiar with TV and radio production, mixing, EQing, Ducking and related having produced pieces, mixed audio and such. there's a bit more to that area than just compression.

 

besides, it was mentioned by Tim, and questioned by AgedH , about the compression methods. It was stated that compression was used to mimimize stage wash. your analogy would tend to make the results opposite of what's needed and generally exacerbates the issue, no? increasing the average stage volume and smoothing it's peaks would produce more stage wash, not less.

 

performers will require the level they will need to compete with the instruments and such. sure, often it's the quieter passages one is reaching for and therefore desires more level. in my experience a more heavily compressed monitor world only makes for EQ, feedback and level issues, not the least of which might be ever more unwanted sound going into open mics

[witesol]

and not sure how side chaining a monitor mix could be considered as a way to minimize proximity effect. For example if the side chain EQ was set to boost between 80-100hz therefore triggering the colmpressor to soften that area, if one wanted some kick drum in that same wedge mix....

[agedhorse]

and not sure how side chaining a monitor mix could be considered as a way to minimize proximity effect. For example if the side chain EQ was set to boost between 80-100hz therefore triggering the colmpressor to soften that area, if one wanted some kick drum in that same wedge mix....

 

 

Which is why I am quite certain that he does not operate this way and does not do events where sophisticated processing is required. In fact, so rarely have I come across it that when somebody says the do this all the time, I know pretty certainly that it's BS.

[tama_drummer_73]

Yep, no side chain mixing here..... Not that I would know how to set it up anyway LOL! I am pretty basic when it comes to PA stuff.... My extent goes as far as an RTA... LOL!

[tama_drummer_73]

Thats not entirely true, I know some, but the more complex stuff I leave to you guys as my source of info..... Thanks so much guys for your help, as it was much needed. Where I live, there aren't that many people that I can go to for in-depth knowledge about PA questions. The closest REAL music store is almost 200 miles from where I live.

[dboomer]

It was stated that compression was used to mimimize stage wash. your analogy would tend to make the results opposite of what's needed and generally exacerbates the issue, no? increasing the average stage volume and smoothing it's peaks would produce more stage wash, not less.

 

 

Correct, the percentage of wash to signal would rise in a compressed signal.

 

As far as side chaining ... maybe he meant high passing the compressor. That would prevent the compressor from triggering from low frequency material that wasn't in the vocal range ... in other words keep the compressor from compressing the wash itself (which would then be raised in the signal.

 

I don't think I'd characterize it as BS ... I'll wait for Tim's response

[rotebass]

Then what happens to the poor monitor mix and the now nonexistant GBF?

You hope to god that the bad guitar tone will detract everyone from the poor vocal tone?

Like I said, seems the more time passes I'm using less and less compression (or none at all in the most ideal situation). I used to be one of those guys that used 8:1 or even 10:1 compression, but I also used to be one of those guys that thought if you set the channel eq the same every night that it would sound GOOD every night.

Live and learn I guess.

Where you located tama_drummer_73?

[rotebass]

Correct, the percentage of wash to signal would rise in a compressed signal. As far as side chaining ... maybe he meant high passing the compressor. That would prevent the compressor from triggering from low frequency material that wasn't in the vocal range ... in other words keep the compressor from compressing the wash itself (which would then be raised in the signal. I don't think I'd characterize it as BS ... I'll wait for Tim's response

 

 

I don't think that is quite accurate. Side-chaining the compressor will not stop it from amplifying the low-end material, it will simply cause the compression stage to be more sensitive to whatever frequencies are boosted on the eq. After the signal is compressed we apply make-up gain, which effects the entire signal.

[witesol]

Like I said, seems the more time passes I'm using less and less compression (or none at all in the most ideal situation). I used to be one of those guys that used 8:1 or even 10:1 compression, but I also used to be one of those guys that thought if you set the channel eq the same every night that it would sound GOOD every night.

 

 

seems I'm using more compressors these days but barely touching the peaks, 2:1, 3:1...

[agedhorse]

Correct, the percentage of wash to signal would rise in a compressed signal. As far as side chaining ... maybe he meant high passing the compressor. That would prevent the compressor from triggering from low frequency material that wasn't in the vocal range ... in other words keep the compressor from compressing the wash itself (which would then be raised in the signal. I don't think I'd characterize it as BS ... I'll wait for Tim's response

 

 

Don, read his response carefully. The amount of gain reduction when the quietest notes just cross the threshold at 8:1 ration would be enormous... in fact, it's almost an AGC circuit. Either he did an abysmal job of explaining what he was doing, describing a gate (not comp) technique, or was just making something up.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I guess here is a question, I don't think I have asked yet. How do you know when you need compression? I guess I just don't know what to listen for to actually know whether or not I even need it. For the ones that use compression in their setups, what made you come to the conclusion that you needed some form of compression?

 

 

Are you kidding, trolling or merely unobservant?

[tama_drummer_73]

Are you kidding, trolling or merely unobservant?

 

 

I'm not going to get into it with you about why I am or I am not using compression. I don't understand it, PERIOD! I wanted to learn more about it. Basically I was under the impression that everyone used it and I am trying to educate myself about it. Honestly, I am finding out from the POSTS here that not everyone uses compression, and from what I am gathering, it should be used in sparing amounts. I am applying what I am reading to my current situation. Sorry if I don't know that much about it, but like I stated before, there aren't that many sound professionals out here that can help me understand it. We live in a fairly rural area that in order to go to a city that has a population of more than 30000 or so, you have to drive 200 miles. So yeah, I came here thinking I would get some constructive, informative help. WRONG! Thanks to the people that took the time to help me out, and to the others, I won't waste my time any more.

[agedhorse]

You just seemed slow catching on. Generally we suggest identifying a problem before applying a solution. You seemed not to be following that approach. I have heard way too many mixes ruined by too much compression, inappropriate compression, effects, gates and the whole works. Cheap outboard gear has created solutions for problems that do not exist.

Pros do not use compression unless there is a need for compression. Now, how to define a need is a whole topic unto itself. An important one too.

[Coaster]

maybe look at some past posts, tons of compression talk. i for one have 10 channels of it in my FOH rack, along with a quad gate (no behringer stuff).

 

my point is i am kind of a compression slut. that said, i usually only use about 6 channels of it on most bands, and you usually wont hear it. my 'norm' is multi band shows where i may not have a clue what the next band is going to be doing or their skill level so i'll put comps on the channels likely to be a little nuts, like lead voc and some drums. i may not use it at all if they do not warrant it.

 

last saturday i used 2 channels of comp, one on kick (needed it) and one on lead vox, sparingly (he tended to 'get going' a little too far once in a while, so it took off maybe 6db about 3 times the whole night)

[tama_drummer_73]

You just seemed slow catching on. Generally we suggest identifying a problem before applying a solution. You seemed not to be following that approach. I have heard way too many mixes ruined by too much compression, inappropriate compression, effects, gates and the whole works. Cheap outboard gear has created solutions for problems that do not exist. Pros do not use compression unless there is a need for compression. Now, how to define a need is a whole topic unto itself. An important one too.

 

 

While that might be true, its not that I am slow to catch on, but not really understanding some of the terminology is what is kicking my ass. Unless you have experienced that before, you can say it all you want, but it still won't make sense. Not everyone has had experience with compression, nor do they want to. Compression, to me was thought to be used all the time to get a certain sound. Not true from what I have read. Some people say that they use it on kick drums to tighten up the sound. Some use it on the vocals, oooook. Why? that I guess was my question. Honestly, I was under the assumption that you needed a compressor in your rack to help with your sound "ALL THE TIME". Not true. The fact of the matter is this, you only need compression when it is warranted. If you don't need it, don't use it. Correct? I get the whole "this is what a compressor does" thing. Being able to know if you are helping or hurting your mix is different. That is where I am struggling. Thanks for the help again.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I'm not going to get into it with you about why I am or I am not using compression. I don't understand it, PERIOD! I wanted to learn more about it. Basically I was under the impression that everyone used it and I am trying to educate myself about it. Honestly, I am finding out from the POSTS here that not everyone uses compression, and from what I am gathering, it should be used in sparing amounts. I am applying what I am reading to my current situation. Sorry if I don't know that much about it, but like I stated before, there aren't that many sound professionals out here that can help me understand it. We live in a fairly rural area that in order to go to a city that has a population of more than 30000 or so, you have to drive 200 miles. So yeah, I came here thinking I would get some constructive, informative help. WRONG! Thanks to the people that took the time to help me out, and to the others, I won't waste my time any more.

 

 

We are here to help you understand it. But if you won't answer questions about what and why, we all waste time and go 4 pages deep before we get to the heart of the matter.

 

As previously posted, have a look at the material available online that explains compression. There's plenty available, and dbx's website is a good place to start, among others. ASK questions, and we'll answer. Really, I haven't been trying to break your balls so much as get you to understand a valuable lesson...only buy and use gear that you understand. You can't BS your way around inexperience or lack of knowledge on this stuff, because it'll really bite you in the ass.

 

Compression simply limits the increase in a signal beyond a threshold you've set. Below the threshold, nothing happens at all. At or above it, the ability of the signal to increase is limited at the ratio you set. A ratio of ~10:1 or higher is considered "limiting", and is used to protect speakers. Below 10:1, it is used for various effects such as "thickening", smoothing a singer or guitarist who has wide fluctuations in dynamic control, and making a passage feel louder than it really is.

 

Using compression increases the average power of a signal, which means that gain before feedback is reduced by the amount of gain reduction employed if you use makeup gain to restore levels. In short, this means you get feedback easier on a compressed signal.

[tama_drummer_73]

Craigv, and to all those that have replied.

 

Thank you, I have learned much more now, than when I first posted. I guess I am just the type of person that can read something over and over, but unless I have real world examples of what it will affect, which is kinda hard to convey over the net honestly, its tough for me to grasp it, unless I've been exposed to compression done the correct way. The biggest hurdle for me is to try and understand what it does and why. I mean unless you know what a compressed signal sounds like vs one that isn't compressed, a compressor is pretty much useless to the person trying to use it. I understand the whole signal reduction part of the compressor, but it is still greek to me. It will come with time, so thank you for being somewhat patient with me.

 

Ok, now that, that is out of the way. Ok, the reason I would even think about trying to compress anything would be to control the peaks (spikes) in the signal. Correct? Something such as a snare drum, a very dynamic vocal mic or possibly a kick drum. Now I have heard that compressing a kick drum will cause it to loose its punch. Why would that be? Sorry for the stupid question. But, honestly there are quite a few variables that have to be taken into consideration when deciding on whether or not to even use compression. I can get a good sound out of a house mix, or at least I think it sounds good. High compression kills your mix, lower compression takes the possible peaks out of the mix, but you don't want it too low or you don't compress anything, too high it reduces the output too much.

 

I guess I needed to know the terminology better before I asked the correct questions.

 

Sorry for seeming like I was on the defensive guys....... I just want to learn is all.... but without knowing what to ask, or how to ask it without seeming like an idiot has been tough. I think I have a little bit of a grasp enough to at least ask halfway intelligent questions.

 

Ok, back to my recent problem. I honestly think that I was trying to use the compressor for:

a.) limiting the output to the amps

b.) tightening up the mix (which honestly I had really no clue, other than what the manual for the compressor stated).

 

So here is my dilemma:

 

Why would I need compression? To me the answer might be to keep the vocals under control as singers some times have bad mic technique or no technique at all. Ok, that seems like a reasonable use. Correct?

 

The kick drum: Still puzzles me. As a drummer, I want it solid and tight. In your chest. Most of that will come from a well tuned bass drum. I currently play on a very nice set of Tama Starclassics, and I take pride in how well they sound. Will compression enhance the sound of the kick, give it more umph, tighten the sound??? Maybe.... will it cut the signal back, definitely. How does that affect the sound? Not sure, as I haven't messed with that yet to even see if it would be beneficial or detrimental to the sound. Honestly if the sound of the kick is great without compression, I am leaving it. No sense in messing with it unless it needs something. Right?

 

Ok here is another question. Say for example, the signal from the vocal mics needs some sort of compression, I understand why the compression shouldn't be used on the individual inserts of the mics, that is, in a live situation. Monitor mix. That is about all I understand of it. I know enough not to do it, but the real reasons for not compressing individual mic channels that will be going through the monitor mix, is above my skill set atm. So here lies the issue, say for example the vocals still need it (compression) would inserting the compressor on a bussed insert be the only way of doing it?

 

On the right track here or no? And Craigv, you are correct, you cannot BS your way around the equipment. I am learning.... slowly but surely. Thank you.

 

Sorry for the long ass post, but I am actually feeling a bit more confident in this whole topic than I was a few days ago.

[RoadRanger]

Gating the kick to cut out any unwanted after-ring (and eliminate feedback) seems to be a better thing to do that to compress it. I also use a hard limiter on the kick but have that set to only activate on maybe 5% of the "hits" - If the gate I use didn't also have the hard limiter in it I wouldn't bother.

[tama_drummer_73]

Gating the kick to cut out any unwanted after-ring (and eliminate feedback) seems to be a better thing to do that to compress it. I also use a hard limiter on the kick but have that set to only activate on maybe 5% of the "hits" - If the gate I use didn't also have the hard limiter in it I wouldn't bother.

 

 

So set the compressor at 1:1, use the gate and the limiter. Any suggestions on what to set the threshold of the gate to? Fairly high?

[tama_drummer_73]

One thing too that might be kicking my ass, is the fact that the compressor that I have doesn't have controls for attack / release.