To compress or not to compress..... that is the question....

[abzurd]

Here's a good read. from Presonus.

[Craig Vecchione]

Also visit dbx's website and look at their manuals and white papers. Both have good explanations for how compression works, and obviously how their comps will handle it.

[BigMac5]

I compress vocals pretty hard, as I like them on top but smooth.

What are your compressor setting for vocals?

[TimmyP]

 

What are your compressor setting for vocals?

 

 

Most of the time there is a fair bit of monitor wash out in the house, which means I use more squash than I might use if the band were on IEMs. I often run between 6:1 and 8:1, attack as fast as it will go (I then back off if the leading consonants need more clarity), release about 100ms. A hard knee usually sounds better to me, but again that may be owing to the monitor wash. When I can get away with it (I can't hear any wash in the vocal mics) I'll set the threshold so that only the very quietest notes are below threshold. I also EQ the sidechain, either a low cut (to get rig of proximity effect) or a high mid boost (to accentuate the presense peak) - which ever is most effective (if I'm using an outboard EQ, I often do both).

[agedhorse]

Most of the time there is a fair bit of monitor wash out in the house, which means I use more squash than I might use if the band were on IEMs. I often run between 6:1 and 8:1, attack as fast as it will go (I then back off if the leading consonants need more clarity), release about 100ms. A hard knee usually sounds better to me, but again that may be owing to the monitor wash. When I can get away with it (I can't hear any wash in the vocal mics) I'll set the threshold so that only the very quietest notes are below threshold. I also EQ the sidechain, either a low cut (to get rig of proximity effect) or a high mid boost (to accentuate the presense peak) - which ever is most effective (if I'm using an outboard EQ, I often do both).

 

 

This is a bunch of crapola. I can't think of any engineer I have worked with on A circuit tours in the last 30 years who went through all of this work to compress a vocal, and then you recommend this to somebody (the OP) who has no idea how to use even the most basic application of a compressor. Good grief, that would send even a seasoned audio guy running for cover.

 

Tim, can you describe to us the acts that you do this with. I haven't seen any act I recognize on your website and you show only a couple of shows a month on your calender of audio events.

 

You sound like you do all these big, fancy shows, with fancy comp. & gate techniques, power distro, and a lot of stuff that just does not jive with what I have seen and done in the last 30 years. Then I look at your calendar and I see things like the "Junior Missy Dance Recital" and "Home Grown Theatre Company" events that do not remotely match your "technical suggestions" and "related experiences".

 

http://www.padrick.net/TP_Audio-Calendar.htm

 

What gives Tim? Are you for real or are you just talk the talk?

[rotebass]

That is a lot of compression. I can't imagine using 8:1 compression on vocals, good-bye intelligibility.

 

I typically run 3:1 and set the threshold to tame the peaks, maybe 4:1 for a bad singer (or a hardrock/metal band) and 6:1 for a very terrible singer. If I need more than 6:1 compression ratios, there is usually a lot worse things going for the bands sound than bad vocals.

 

Less is more me thinks.

[agedhorse]

That is a lot of compression. I can't imagine using 8:1 compression on vocals, good-bye intelligibility. I typically run 3:1 and set the threshold to tame the peaks, maybe 4:1 for a bad singer (or a hardrock/metal band) and 6:1 for a very terrible singer. If I need more than 6:1 compression ratios, there is usually a lot worse things going for the bands sound than bad vocals. Less is more me thinks.

 

 

Then what happens to the poor monitor mix and the now nonexistant GBF?

[Unalaska]

Compression can really bite you in the ass. Anything over the 3:1 a singer will notice in their mix. They may not know what it is but they'll know it sounds off. More than that the wedges will ring on their own UNTIL vocals go thru them, and the millisecond the decay is reached the gain compensation kicks in and you've got feedback again. With many singers on stage sharing a mix you may find it best to comp a subgroup of vocals, or do something to keep the monitor mix from being effected.

[Crownman]

Multi-band compression is a neat tool for mastering and I suppose one could try it live. I don't think I'd want to limit myself to the fixed x-over points the system would be using though; off the top of my head the multi-band comp in vegas I use has 3 points at 250, 800, 4-5k. I don't really remember though, live I wouldn't bother. FWIW I don't mind the behringer 4ch comps; kick, vocals etc. I don't recommend compressing everything a whole lot. It also messes with your monitor mixes too and can really cuz feedback. (there is a whole 'nother story, maybe I'll post it) In a x-cover - compressor - amp situation using soft compression (RMS) to bring the overall level down you can thermal your horns out pretty easy. Generally sub and low drivers fail due to mechanical reasons and tweets don't move all that much from transients. But they do heat up. Compressing them causes more power to go thru them and not as many trasients to keep the diaphram moving. It won't move that much anyway but you'd be suprised what squashing a signal will do to a driver.

 

 

 

I've had very good luck using an Aphex Dominator on the entire mix. You don't even hear it working. If there's one thing I can't stand it's having to listen to a PA breathe like crazy.

[tama_drummer_73]

Well, we didn't have rehearsal yesterday and I setup the PA to test some stuff out. I moved my compressor to my FOH rack and only compressed the vocal buss somewhat, only about 2-3:1 ratio. I am still trying settings out and listening to the changes that it makes. I really like being able to control what I want compressed wise verses compressing the entire mix like I had been doing. Thank you for the help! The PA was louder, had more punch and was WAAAY more defined. I truly believe that the compression prior to yesterday was killing my mix. I actually feel like I am getting the most out of my PA now and am really anxious to use it in the upcoming show. My monitor mix sounds better as well.

Here is another question, has anyone ever used the Presonus ACP88? Is it a good unit? I'd like to be able to have a tad more control over the compression on the individual mic channels instead of compressing a buss (vocals primarily). See in the band that I am in (cover band), we have 3 vocalists, myself (backing), female (lead), male(lead). Of course the male vocals have COMPLETELY different dynamic qualities than the female's. We do rock/metal covers where the male vocals and sometimes the female vocals go from soft parts to screaming parts. In your opinion, would we benefit from using small bits of compression on the lead vocals? Honestly I think we would, but I am still learning, so any help here is much appreciated as my ears haven't matured yet LOL!

[agedhorse]

Why don't you try NOT compressing the vocals first? Unless you have a good reason why a particular vocal needs compression, it's something I generally try to avoid. It also will improve your monitor sound by not using it (for the most part).

[jasps]

Well, we didn't have rehearsal yesterday and I setup the PA to test some stuff out. I moved my compressor to my FOH rack and only compressed the vocal buss somewhat, only about 2-3:1 ratio. I am still trying settings out and listening to the changes that it makes. I really like being able to control what I want compressed wise verses compressing the entire mix like I had been doing. Thank you for the help! The PA was louder, had more punch and was WAAAY more defined. I truly believe that the compression prior to yesterday was killing my mix. I actually feel like I am getting the most out of my PA now and am really anxious to use it in the upcoming show. My monitor mix sounds better as well. Here is another question, has anyone ever used the Presonus ACP88? Is it a good unit? I'd like to be able to have a tad more control over the compression on the individual mic channels instead of compressing a buss (vocals primarily). See in the band that I am in (cover band), we have 3 vocalists, myself (backing), female (lead), male(lead). Of course the male vocals have COMPLETELY different dynamic qualities than the female's. We do rock/metal covers where the male vocals and sometimes the female vocals go from soft parts to screaming parts. In your opinion, would we benefit from using small bits of compression on the lead vocals? Honestly I think we would, but I am still learning, so any help here is much appreciated as my ears haven't matured yet LOL!

 

 

Ugh. Why do you need the Presonus? The 1046 allows you to compress 4 channels, which allows you to compress all of your vocalists separately. I've used a couple and they work, but they are nothing I would buy if I didn't need 8 channels of cheap compression in one box, which is basically never.

 

You've just said that not using compression on your mix really helped your sound, why are you going about trying to add it back in? No offense, but it sounds like you've got a tool you just want to use, without understanding the application. If I were you, I'd try to get your band to the point where you didn't need to use compression.

 

Best to you.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Well, we didn't have rehearsal yesterday and I setup the PA to test some stuff out. I moved my compressor to my FOH rack and only compressed the vocal buss somewhat, only about 2-3:1 ratio. I am still trying settings out and listening to the changes that it makes. I really like being able to control what I want compressed wise verses compressing the entire mix like I had been doing. Thank you for the help! The PA was louder, had more punch and was WAAAY more defined. I truly believe that the compression prior to yesterday was killing my mix. I actually feel like I am getting the most out of my PA now and am really anxious to use it in the upcoming show. My monitor mix sounds better as well. Here is another question, has anyone ever used the Presonus ACP88? Is it a good unit? I'd like to be able to have a tad more control over the compression on the individual mic channels instead of compressing a buss (vocals primarily). See in the band that I am in (cover band), we have 3 vocalists, myself (backing), female (lead), male(lead). Of course the male vocals have COMPLETELY different dynamic qualities than the female's. We do rock/metal covers where the male vocals and sometimes the female vocals go from soft parts to screaming parts. In your opinion, would we benefit from using small bits of compression on the lead vocals? Honestly I think we would, but I am still learning, so any help here is much appreciated as my ears haven't matured yet LOL!

 

 

 

You haven't answered the basic question I asked (and that you got indignant about) many posts back....what are you using compression for? What problem, if any, is it intended to address?

 

You're going about this as if compression is a given, which it is not.

 

It's a tool, and you only buy a tool when you've defined the job you need to do. At this time, you're in a position analogous to a guy who's bought a circular saw, but may not have any wood to cut.

[tama_drummer_73]

Ugh. Why do you need the Presonus? The 1046 allows you to compress 4 channels, which allows you to compress all of your vocalists separately. I've used a couple and they work, but they are nothing I would buy if I didn't need 8 channels of cheap compression in one box, which is basically never. You've just said that not using compression on your mix really helped your sound, why are you going about trying to add it back in? No offense, but it sounds like you've got a tool you just want to use, without understanding the application. If I were you, I'd try to get your band to the point where you didn't need to use compression. Best to you.

 

 

Thanks for your reply. Yes moving the compressor from one spot in the signal chain to another DID help. I haven't had a chance to actually use the compressor in an actual live situation where all vocals & instruments were being used to see whether or not I need it yet. I just remember what it sounded like the last time we used it, and I didn't like it. So yes, I am not 100% certain that I will even use it yet. Basically I do have something that I would like to use IF it will be beneficial. I don't understand it fully, and is why I came here to ask for some guidance on it.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Also visit dbx's website and look at their manuals and white papers. Both have good explanations for how compression works, and obviously how their comps will handle it.

 

 

 

Bears repeating, I think.

[dboomer]

That is a lot of compression. I can't imagine using 8:1 compression on vocals, good-bye intelligibility.

 

 

I think what we might have here is a misunderstanding. Sounds like Tim is using the compressor as light limiting in which case this is appropriate. I often use the words interchangeably. It depends on the program, the stage and the settings that are being used.

[Jerry007]

My 2 cents:

Unless you're all seasoned pros, definitely avoid compressing the vocals you'll hear in your monitors. You won't learn/improve good mic technique if what you're hearing is being processed.

And mic technique is what 'separates the men from the boys'...

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I think what we might have here is a misunderstanding. Sounds like Tim is using the compressor as light limiting in which case this is appropriate. I often use the words interchangeably. It depends on the program, the stage and the settings that are being used.

 

 

Hence my two posts asking him to explain why he thinks he needs compression.

[dboomer]

Basically, I am compressing the signal as it comes out of the crossover.

 

Common practice in most all DSPs ... usually done as limiting which in my book is 10:1 ratio or better and then with the threshold pretty high.

[Unalaska]

With the threshold set pretty high. That's the key. It doesn't matter what te ratio is if the signal never reaches it.

[agedhorse]

It's a tool, and you only buy a tool when you've defined the job you need to do. At this time, you're in a position analogous to a guy who's bought a circular saw, but may not have any wood to cut.

 

 

But... perhaps a surplus of fingers?

[tama_drummer_73]

I guess here is a question, I don't think I have asked yet. How do you know when you need compression? I guess I just don't know what to listen for to actually know whether or not I even need it.

 

For the ones that use compression in their setups, what made you come to the conclusion that you needed some form of compression?

[Coaster]

 

I guess here is a question, I don't think I have asked yet. How do you know when you need compression? I guess I just don't know what to listen for to actually know whether or not I even need it. For the ones that use compression in their setups, what made you come to the conclusion that you needed some form of compression?

 

 

when things have too wide a dynamic range.

 

or when you want to color a signal with specific characteristics.

[dboomer]

How do you know when you need compression?

 

 

Maybe we should change the word from "compression" to "dynamic range management" as compression is more of a single flavor.

 

Compression and limiting are both used to manage dynamic range. Limiting usually to protect and compression to affect tone ... but the words are somewhat interchangeable.

 

To greatly simplify...

 

 

With inputs that have a high peak to average ratio eg bass guitar, kick drum, snare drum, tambourine, etc the "loudness" you hear is the average level ... but your system will crap out due to the peak level (usually). So you can squeeze down the dynamic range allowing you to raise the average level without causing objectionable distortion. Usually a little bit is unnoticeable but as you add more you begin to hear it ... eventually you've changed the sound enough that the tone has gone bad. As far as straight protection ... you can use it to limit voltage output.

 

Maybe you have a input that you want squished so as to remove some prominence from it ... background singer, second or third rhythm guitar, whatever ... that's a job for compression. Pretty common in recording ... but in live sound you are trading one problem for another. It will bring up background wash making everything less clear and it will reduce your gain before feedback.

 

I standardly have limiters in systems to protect ... but rarely use compression unless there is no other way (which there usually is)

[tama_drummer_73]

Maybe we should change the word from "compression" to "dynamic range management" as compression is more of a single flavor. Compression and limiting are both used to manage dynamic range. Limiting usually to protect and compression to affect tone ... but the words are somewhat interchangeable. To greatly simplify... With inputs that have a high peak to average ratio eg bass guitar, kick drum, snare drum, tambourine, etc the "loudness" you hear is the average level ... but your system will crap out due to the peak level (usually). So you can squeeze down the dynamic range allowing you to raise the average level without causing objectionable distortion. Usually a little bit is unnoticeable but as you add more you begin to hear it ... eventually you've changed the sound enough that the tone has gone bad. As far as straight protection ... you can use it to limit voltage output. Maybe you have a input that you want squished so as to remove some prominence from it ... background singer, second or third rhythm guitar, whatever ... that's a job for compression. Pretty common in recording ... but in live sound you are trading one problem for another. It will bring up background wash making everything less clear and it will reduce your gain before feedback. I standardly have limiters in systems to protect ... but rarely use compression unless there is no other way (which there usually is)

 

 

Thanks for that explanation. It makes a bit more sense now.